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StevenHW



Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 10330
Location: Sacramento, California


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PostPosted: 05/27/14 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Kristen Mann (former UC Santa Barbara Gauchos player), tweeted:

Quote:
Kristen Mann ‏@dreamingtree44 · May 24
Thoughts & prayers 2 those involved in the Isla Vista shooting last night. Thinking of my fellow Gauchos! 🙏



And from Kayte Christensen's Twitter page:



Crying or Very sad


norwester



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 6355
Location: Seattle


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PostPosted: 05/28/14 10:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sorry, jammer, I wasn't trying to attack you. I got that you're pro-feminist backlash (or however we want to describe it). It's just that some of your phrasing about men wanting to have sex mirrors or mimics some of those who try to disparage the backlash, or justify the violent actions of men, so perhaps you struck a chord with me. Confused

Meanwhile, we're in total agreement about what two consenting adults should be able to do in privacy. I don't know why we care so much in this country. Prohibition has not been shown to be a useful tool for combatting what people will do anyway...as you've said there are certain biological urges that cannot be denied.

I think a lot of this "morality" screws up a bunch of stuff. I mean, I brought up gay marriage. Frankly I don't know why we care about plural marriage. Some man or woman wants more than one wife or husband? Or a husband and wife? Big deal!

We should also legalize drugs, in my opinion, though that's kind of a tangent.

But maybe not. I wish we could get away from the whole criminal/morality/incarceration thrust to our legal system, and put that money into coming at it from a mental health/mental disease perspective. But I guess that's too hard to tackle? Meanwhile, we'll continue to have incidents like this.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 05/28/14 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

norwester wrote:
Sorry, jammer, I wasn't trying to attack you. I got that you're pro-feminist backlash (or however we want to describe it). It's just that some of your phrasing about men wanting to have sex mirrors or mimics some of those who try to disparage the backlash, or justify the violent actions of men, so perhaps you struck a chord with me. Confused


That's cool. Explanation there is I think when the issues on either side (not implying there is a 'side' to the story for a mass murderer) are often universal… men need sex… women should be safe in their lives… that just espousing anything at all along those lines can put some aspect of a person's position in agreement with aspects of either group's thoughts.

This has, like so many of the latest dust ups, been an education and so my opinions on some things are evolving as I learn more about what's actually going on in our world.

For instance, I had no idea there was something called PUAs and PUA (Pickup Artists) communities online. I saw advertisements promising to help a guy pick up any girl or make any girl want to have sex with you instantly… but I see advertisements promising nine inch ding dongs. I don't take them seriously and I never imagined that enough guys had clicked on those ads and had become wannabe practitioners of 'game' to have formed actual online communities … uh… like OURS. Message boards, etc.

Now I've clicked on a Salon article and had my eyeballs popped again. There's apparently other online communities made up of something called Incels. Short for involuntary celibates. Shocked

Everything to follow is copied and pasted from the article.

Arrow

In a recent post on Love-shy.com, a forum for the dateless and sexless, the man wrote, “I am seriously thinking about just getting a gun and shooting everything up,” he said. “I fantasize about it everyday … that’s how fucked up my mind is.” The truly “fucked up” thing is that this isn’t another newly discovered online posting from Elliot Rodger, the 22-year-old who went on a shooting rampage Friday, killing six people. These are just the words of yet another angry man on the Internet expressing rage at society — especially women — over his own celibacy.

The poster continued, “I think if I do end up going on a mass shooting spree it will be due to the mental damage/stress from being isolated from meaningful human contact for too long. If/when that ever happens, can I really be blamed for murder if I’ve lost my mental faculties to judge right from wrong?” He goes on to say of the infamous mass murderers of recent years, “Quite a lot of those shooters weren’t crazy.”

To be sure, this poster isn’t representative of male virgins, just as Elliot Rodger isn’t the spokesperson for all men who identify as “involuntarily celibate” (“incels” for short). But sympathy for Rodger, and strikingly similar ideologies, are disturbingly common in the online communities for “love-shy” and incel men. PUA Hate, the site where Rodger shared his resentment about being a self-described incel has been taken down amid the current media frenzy, but plenty of similar sites remain.

http://www.salon.com/2014/05/27/inside_the_terrifying_twisted_online_world_of_involuntary_celibates/



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Richard 77



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 3849
Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin


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PostPosted: 05/29/14 5:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I read the article. Still feeling no sympathy for men (or women) who are involuntary celibate. "It's somebody else's fault I'm celibate..." seems to be the running mantra in the debate. What do they mean, "meaningful relationship?" Don't they have family? Don't they have friends? Don't they have co-workers? Meaningful relationships don't necessarily include sexual activity. But they're so twisted with the idea that they're not getting sex on a regular or daily basis it has convoluted their thought process and stupidly makes them believe (opinion) that revenge through violence is their only way they can restore their prowess and self-respect. A lot of hooey on their part (opinion).

I know what its like to be involuntary celibate. I found a lot of better things to do than obsess over it.



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If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57699
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 05/29/14 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

Quote:
why can't i fuck a virgin 16-18 year old. i am entitled to this



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Her mocking smile says it all
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Of every soldier passing
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 05/29/14 7:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
http://jezebel.com/lessons-from-a-day-spent-with-the-ucsb-shooters-awful-f-1582884301

Quote:
why can't i fuck a virgin 16-18 year old. i am entitled to this


I can't read that shit, pilight. I tried. It's like my eyes (or something) can't focus on it. I'm having a hard time sorting it out as someone's real thoughts. I've heard the feminists who have been reacting to this shooting using the word 'entitled' in saying that this shooter and like-minded sexually frustrated and misogynistic young men feel they are 'entitled' to women's bodies… and honestly I thought they were simply appropriating the word to help advance their (mostly) valid points. But to see some fucked up dude actually use the word himself in saying he's entitled to have sex with a young girl?

I'm just having a hard time. This isn't about individuals. Something BIG has happened to a LOT of people. We've been warning for almost two decades that computers and the internet was eroding the part of life that involves human interaction. Has that actually snuck up on us all in the form of vast swaths of the population wanting to put women in cages? Because it's like a pathogen was introduced into society. These guys are a huge block, it SEEMS. Like they're all locked in a virtual prison camp together united in their isolation from female companionship and DOOMED to permanently stay there.

Or is it really just a small fringe group that is being given all this attention at this time because of the shooting and the reactions to it?

When I got my first HD TV and signal… and I saw the HD shows and commercials… and it's only gotten more and more universal… I'm sure I said it here but if I didn't I sure have been saying to anyone else who would listen… this is a new level of stimulation and there's got to be just a shitload of men out there who aren't handling it very well. Even the color of clothes and skin now in the photography. Close-ups. Incredibly attractive and alluring and seductive images of women whose looks stand up to HD scrutiny. I could FEEL a difference myself watching TV. I told mrs jammer that (something like) if there are scruffy sex offenders out there in the high desert watching the same shit we're watching… they're cutting off their ankle monitors.

So you combine that level of visual stimulation with guys who grew up attached to their computers who have no ability to relate to or BE a companion to a young woman, drop all of that into a country where sex is impossible to get on an at need basis for those guys and where being horny and on the prowl is tantamount to criminal or at least creepy behavior… it's a bad situation to say the least.

But I don't get the group derangement where they're talking about this controlled sex utopia or that they're entitled to sex with young girls. Shocked



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57699
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 05/29/14 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Actually, jammer, I think you have the role of the internet backwards. Lots of young men go through a phase where they feel like these guys. In the past they've (almost) always grown out of it because they haven't been able to articulate it for fear of social stigma. Now they've found other like minded dolts online and they reinforce each other's misguided sense of misogyny.

Really, though, you're on the right track when you say...

Quote:
Or is it really just a small fringe group that is being given all this attention at this time because of the shooting and the reactions to it?


The sensationalism of the media makes it seem far worse than it really is. Remember 20 years ago when they were all caught up in the fear of "superpredators"? How we were in for a massive increase in violent crime? Instead, violent crime rates fell off a cliff in the late 90's and are now at historically low levels.



_________________
Marlene watches from the wall
Her mocking smile says it all
As she records the rise and fall
Of every soldier passing
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 19639



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PostPosted: 05/29/14 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know. I think it could be a little of this and a whole lot of that. Maybe, hopefully, not so many of these guys but my fear is that there are a lot. Swaths.

It also just occurred to me that that Rodger might have chosen this school for the Isla Vista social life which is apparently famous for hooking up with SoCal coeds. If he went there for that purpose and found himself perpetually spurned by the women there…



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
sambista



Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 16483
Location: way station of life


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PostPosted: 05/29/14 9:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

meanwhile, in another part of the world . . .

Utah high school slammed for secretly Photoshopping yearbook photos to make girls less sexy



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 11340
Location: Oklahoma (in my heart), whilst on my way to Oregon!


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PostPosted: 05/29/14 11:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Actually, jammer, I think you have the role of the internet backwards. Lots of young men go through a phase where they feel like these guys. In the past they've (almost) always grown out of it because they haven't been able to articulate it for fear of social stigma. Now they've found other like minded dolts online and they reinforce each other's misguided sense of misogyny.

Really, though, you're on the right track when you say...

Quote:
Or is it really just a small fringe group that is being given all this attention at this time because of the shooting and the reactions to it?


The sensationalism of the media makes it seem far worse than it really is. Remember 20 years ago when they were all caught up in the fear of "superpredators"? How we were in for a massive increase in violent crime? Instead, violent crime rates fell off a cliff in the late 90's and are now at historically low levels.


Can something like this incident *seem* more terrible than it really is?? I mean, yes, it really IS quite terrible. But I get your point, pilight, and couldn't agree more. Maybe it's more accurate to say it seems more PREVALENT than it really is (instead of using the word "terrible"). As horrific as the event was, and as disgusting as that website's 'revelations' are, it is an extraordinarily small percentage of our population that operates this way, though the highlighted media attention makes it feel like it's inevitable in every town and city across the nation.

I still say the only surprising thing is that incidents like this (and Aurora and Sandy Hook, ad nauseum) don't happen MORE often, given the sheer numbers of weapons and crazies wandering freely in our land. The Dark-Hearted have always been among us, but nowadays, they have commanded far more of our attention.



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norwester



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 6355
Location: Seattle


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PostPosted: 05/30/14 12:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds

Another article on media and culture and perhaps how misogyny endures, or thoughts of entitlement that arise are reinforced? But most disturbingly (because it's real) how accepted as normal certain behaviors are, to the point that they aren't critiqued by the larger part of either women or men.
Quote:
I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be “flattered.” I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder.

I chose this quote, and bolded the last part, because there's another discussion going on about media in this whole thing, and it's about how when a white male does a shooting everyone automatically cries "mental illness" in a way we do not see when a male of other religious or genetic backgrounds perform similar attrocities. It's easy to define this act as mental illness, but is it actually mental illness, or just a form of extemism?
Quote:
And yet. When this story broke, the initial mainstream coverage only talked about “mental illness,” not misogyny, a line that people are now fervently exhorting us to stick to even after the manifesto’s contents were revealed. Yet another high-profile tech CEO resignation ensued when the co-founder of Rap Genius decided Rodger’s manifesto was a hilarious joke.



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sambista



Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 16483
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PostPosted: 06/02/14 3:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

just finished reading a piece about this kid's troubled past, and this photo of him is more chilling than anything. little wonder women had a special sense about him. it's in those eyes, like he's not of this world, that some key marbles are missing or cracked.




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norwester



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 06/02/14 6:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ted Talk about Violence Against Women

It focuses on violence and the seeds of violence in male peer culture, and what the speaker calls the "bystander" approach, where a bystander is anyone not the victim or the abuser. He talks about how men not speaking up and calling their peers out, or those in power not calling their subordinates out, for sexist remarks like they might for racist remarks, is a failure of leadership.

It was an interesting male perspective, just briefly touching on male culture, and how those in power (let's say "white males" for one example) sort of erase the existence of other groups by automatically assuming "women's issues" or "race issues" or "gender issues" or "sexuality" as not applying to them. And therefore they don't have to listen or address it.

I thought it was worth a watch.



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sambista



Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 16483
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PostPosted: 06/02/14 8:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

that was pretty nice. not as powerful as the writer/presenter intimated, maybe because i'm fortunate to be surrounded by mostly enlightened people who are NOT bystanders. but it was interesting seeing the "cognitive structure" of our social mindset represented on paper. that was the thing that was new and different for me.



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57699
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PostPosted: 06/04/14 10:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
But I don't get the group derangement where they're talking about this controlled sex utopia or that they're entitled to sex with young girls. Shocked


It is the #1 reason admitted rapists commit that crime internationally:

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2214-109X(13)70069-X/abstract

Quote:
sexual entitlement 73·3%



_________________
Marlene watches from the wall
Her mocking smile says it all
As she records the rise and fall
Of every soldier passing
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 19639



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PostPosted: 06/04/14 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Would you agree that there is a difference between the reason someone wants to do something, and the reason that they ultimately go through with it? Insert that thinking here. And attitudes towards women around the world are so horribly backwards it's hard to associate them with attitudes of American college kids. But I guess it could be an influencing factor. The more you teach them about the plight of women around the world, I guess, the more unpredictable the reaction might be in certain twisted minds.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 57699
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PostPosted: 04/27/18 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Saint Elliot Rodger and the 'Incels' Who Canonize Him

https://jezebel.com/saint-elliot-rodger-and-the-incels-who-canonize-him-1825567815

Quote:
Alek Minassian cited Elliot Rodger as a kind of hero before he drove a rented van onto a busy Toronto sidewalk, killing 10 people on Monday. “All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!” Minassian wrote in a now-deleted Facebook post.



_________________
Marlene watches from the wall
Her mocking smile says it all
As she records the rise and fall
Of every soldier passing
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