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CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 04/04/18 5:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
There may be some interesting reasons why little sis Dara decided on Va Tech instead of ND. But your guess is as good as mine.


1. ND was recruiting another higher ranked player for her exact position.
2. Maybe she wanted to be her own player and go somewhere else.

Personally, I'd go with one of the two above, possibly some combination of both.

That's often how recruiting goes. What position a team needs in a particular recruiting season doesn't match up with certain recruits, and recruits don't necessarily feel the need to go where their family had gone before.

If last year is any indication, I think she'll be fine at Va Tech. I was impressed with how the Hokies improved over the season.


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 5:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
after a, let's say, fortunate run through this year's FF,


Yeah, still not willing to give ND credit when they win NCs. It's all just "fortunate runs" "Stars being aligned" etc.

How about talented players playing a great game with a great coach?


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/05/18 11:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
after a, let's say, fortunate run through this year's FF,


Yeah, still not willing to give ND credit when they win NCs. It's all just "fortunate runs" "Stars being aligned" etc.

How about talented players playing a great game with a great coach?



Most people probably don't consider a game which included 8 assists, 17 turnovers and a 22.2% rate from 3 as "great" by team execution standards. But, I'm not here to make that point.

The point is, your ND boner blindness doesn't allow you to realize that the two (fortunate and "talented players...with a great coach") aren't mutually exclusive.

Anyone else would probably consider an OT win by 2 which included the tying shot attempt catching iron, followed by a 3-pt win on a shot that much more often than not doesn't go in, as "fortunate".

For you though, it's another opportunity to attack me. Why do I mean so much to you?



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Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: 04/05/18 12:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Don't insult Diggins, she actually played the game well and the right way.


Apparently you didn't pay attention to UConn fan comments when she was playing at ND... Wink


I personally don't give a crap about what you say or anyone else, I can make my own opinion without taking a dig at some other posters.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/05/18 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Winning a national title requires some amount of luck. Now, whether the term "fortunate" is being used in the general sense of "luck" or if it is referring to "auspicious" or "only winning because all of the stars aligned," I cannot say (as it is not my place to speak for the poster who used the term or the discussion between the two people about what the word means).

That being said...

In 2010, Duke was a #1 seed in the men's NCAAT. In the Elite Eight, Duke beat #3 seed Baylor in a very difficult neutral court matchup, as it took place in Houston.

In the Final Four, Duke was slated to play the #1 seed in the East Regional, Kentucky. But West Virginia upset the apple cart, by defeating Kentucky in the East Regional Final.

Now, Kentucky was STACKED - John Wall, DeMarcus Cousins, Eric Bledsoe, Patrick Patterson, and Daniel Orton all were taken in the first round of the 2010 NBA Draft (and Josh Harrellson and DeAndre Liggins were both taken in the second round of the 2011 NBA Draft). Kentucky would have trounced Duke. But Kentucky did not match up well with West Virginia, who could pack the paint with Cousins and dare the other Wildcats to shoot from outside - which Kentucky did, to the tune of 4-32 from beyond the arc.

Duke had three stars -- senior Jon Scheyer, juniors Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith -- along with a few key roleplayers (seniors Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek) and a talented freshman class (Mason Plumlee, Ryan Kelly). Duke was able to stay pretty even on the glass, not turn the ball over, and got 63 points from the Big Three (Scheyer, Singler, Smith) to win handily, 78-57, over West Virginia, en route to defeating Butler for the 2010 National Championship.

Duke would not have defeated Kentucky in the Final Four, due to matchups. But Duke was "fortunate" in not having to play Kentucky, because West Virginia defeated the Wildcats in the Elite Eight.

Now, if someone says, "Duke was lucky/fortunate to win in 2010," it can be taken in a denotative sense (winning involves some amount of luck) or connotative sense (Duke only won because of [insert conspiracy theory or other reason]). It depends on the message being conveyed by the speaker.

But winning a national title, in general, involves some amount of luck.


summertime blues



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: 04/05/18 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
There may be some interesting reasons why little sis Dara decided on Va Tech instead of ND. But your guess is as good as mine.


1. ND was recruiting another higher ranked player for her exact position.
2. Maybe she wanted to be her own player and go somewhere else.

Personally, I'd go with one of the two above, possibly some combination of both.

That's often how recruiting goes. What position a team needs in a particular recruiting season doesn't match up with certain recruits, and recruits don't necessarily feel the need to go where their family had gone before.

If last year is any indication, I think she'll be fine at Va Tech. I was impressed with how the Hokies improved over the season.


IIRC, she said something referencing #2 when she signed. And I think Kenny will do well by her.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/05/18 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"Fortunate to win" in this context is often pejorative, suggesting the winning team wasn't good enough to win without the good graces of Lady Luck.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 04/05/18 8:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A good team always win the championship, in high school, college or pro.

The best team, however, does not always win the championship. There are a lot of variables and a lot of luck involved -- but only good teams are capable of taking advantage of what fortune presents.

So I would say every champion is "fortunate" at one level or another, without taking anything away from the achievement.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 04/05/18 11:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fortune favors the prepared mind, or in this endeavor, the prepared team.


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/06/18 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are always a lot of variables and there were certainly more variables than normal in all 3 of these games. I really hope the NCAA addresses the discrepancies and looks into some kind of improvement in officiating down the road. The definitely need some kind of model to address inconsistency to say the least.


willtalk



Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: 04/07/18 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
There are always a lot of variables and there were certainly more variables than normal in all 3 of these games. I really hope the NCAA addresses the discrepancies and looks into some kind of improvement in officiating down the road. The definitely need some kind of model to address inconsistency to say the least.


While this is certainly true, I do not see an easy or possible solution in the immediate future. The problem with officiating rests at it's very core. The problem with poor officiating is found even at it's highest levels. There are just too many people officiating that do not have the required skills.

Good officials need to have excellent court vision and spatial awareness. Along with good vision combined with attention to detail, they also need to be ability to quickly process that visual information. They basically need the same visual and mental skills of a point guard. What we presently have are a group of people who could not make it as players keeping their hand in the game or sports wanta be's.. That is the core that officials are usually drawn from. What we have in college and the pro's are just the best of a bad starting pool.

Officiating needs to be given the emphasis and respect it deserves. I should be considered a respected vocation with those that do not possess the basic foundational skills being eliminated early on. The entry level presently has little to no qualifications required. Actually officials have more of an impact than athletes do. Athletes come and go, but the officials remain.

The beginning officials were nothing more than fans pulled out of the stands and that sort of perspective reflecting a lack of importance is what has set the standard that is at the root of the problem today. You have a multi million dollar business ( sports ) being ruined by a mom and pop store system.


bballjunkie



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: 04/07/18 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Great points and I really thought I was watching high school refs. It can’t get any worse, so any type of provisional intervention would help kick start it in the right direction. These ladies deserve it.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/08/18 11:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To bang on one of my favorite drums again ...

If we want officiating to be better, we need to tone down the criticism from the stands, especially at the youth level. The unwarranted abuse officials endure far outweighs the warranted abuse, and qualified people simply opt out because there's precious little money in it and not much emotional compensation if you get roasted and toasted by people who've never even seen a rulebook, much less read one, every time out.

Of course, it all starts with every critic of the officials to get out there and do some CYO games and see how that works for you. And the "I would never do that" answer should automatically disqualify that person from ever saying anything negative about the officials.

And once again, compare volleyball to basketball. Volleyball officials at the high school level earn just as much money, and not only is it far, far easier to do, the volleyball culture is much less abusive. Football is also tamer in its criticism of refs, and though baseball can get heated, the play-in and play-out unjustified abuse is much less common.

If you want better basketball officiating, then do your part to encourage more people to officiate, and do your part to discourage the idiotic and nasty complaints from fans who don't have a clue.



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GEF34



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 04/08/18 11:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
To bang on one of my favorite drums again ...

If we want officiating to be better, we need to tone down the criticism from the stands, especially at the youth level. The unwarranted abuse officials endure far outweighs the warranted abuse, and qualified people simply opt out because there's precious little money in it and not much emotional compensation if you get roasted and toasted by people who've never even seen a rulebook, much less read one, every time out.

Of course, it all starts with every critic of the officials to get out there and do some CYO games and see how that works for you. And the "I would never do that" answer should automatically disqualify that person from ever saying anything negative about the officials.

And once again, compare volleyball to basketball. Volleyball officials at the high school level earn just as much money, and not only is it far, far easier to do, the volleyball culture is much less abusive. Football is also tamer in its criticism of refs, and though baseball can get heated, the play-in and play-out unjustified abuse is much less common.

If you want better basketball officiating, then do your part to encourage more people to officiate, and do your part to discourage the idiotic and nasty complaints from fans who don't have a clue.


I was just going to write the same thing. There are a lot of people that could be great officials, but don't want to deal with people yelling at them, calling them names, harassing them, saying they are bad at their job and they should lose their job. Sports jobs are different than most jobs in that people (fans) think they can freely talk about the jobs they are doing and openly criticize what is going on even though they have no idea what they are talking about. I've watched a lot of games where home fans yell a ref should be fired cause they made a call against the home team even though it was the right call, but because it's against the home team the fans think it's the wrong call. Maybe if fans learn to be more cordial and only root when their team does something well instead of booing the opposing team, booing the refs, talking as if they know everything, more people would be willing to work in sports. For all the people who claim refs should be better, are they volunteering to become refs, and if not, why not? If you think you can do such a better job and you know how to change it, put your money where your mouth is.

And even on this board you have people openly talk about conspiracies when certain teams win or lose and talk about the refs being paid, and so on and so forth and then wonder why there are no good refs, well maybe if you were nicer to the refs that exist now more people would be willing to go into it as a career.



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 10:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
To bang on one of my favorite drums again ...

If we want officiating to be better, we need to tone down the criticism from the stands, especially at the youth level. The unwarranted abuse officials endure far outweighs the warranted abuse, and qualified people simply opt out because there's precious little money in it and not much emotional compensation if you get roasted and toasted by people who've never even seen a rulebook, much less read one, every time out.

Of course, it all starts with every critic of the officials to get out there and do some CYO games and see how that works for you. And the "I would never do that" answer should automatically disqualify that person from ever saying anything negative about the officials.

And once again, compare volleyball to basketball. Volleyball officials at the high school level earn just as much money, and not only is it far, far easier to do, the volleyball culture is much less abusive. Football is also tamer in its criticism of refs, and though baseball can get heated, the play-in and play-out unjustified abuse is much less common.

If you want better basketball officiating, then do your part to encourage more people to officiate, and do your part to discourage the idiotic and nasty complaints from fans who don't have a clue.


I was just going to write the same thing. There are a lot of people that could be great officials, but don't want to deal with people yelling at them, calling them names, harassing them, saying they are bad at their job and they should lose their job. Sports jobs are different than most jobs in that people (fans) think they can freely talk about the jobs they are doing and openly criticize what is going on even though they have no idea what they are talking about. I've watched a lot of games where home fans yell a ref should be fired cause they made a call against the home team even though it was the right call, but because it's against the home team the fans think it's the wrong call. Maybe if fans learn to be more cordial and only root when their team does something well instead of booing the opposing team, booing the refs, talking as if they know everything, more people would be willing to work in sports. For all the people who claim refs should be better, are they volunteering to become refs, and if not, why not? If you think you can do such a better job and you know how to change it, put your money where your mouth is.

And even on this board you have people openly talk about conspiracies when certain teams win or lose and talk about the refs being paid, and so on and so forth and then wonder why there are no good refs, well maybe if you were nicer to the refs that exist now more people would be willing to go into it as a career.


+1 to all of this. Another thing that I think affects basketball more than most sports is that just about everyone that is a fan or watches games has probably at one point shot around, dribbled a ball, played a little pick up ball, etc and think that they know the game and understand it, inside and out. How many scream "over the back" at a game when the reality is, that is not even a thing? There is no such thing and nothing listed in the rule book that addresses "over the back".

But, in my mind, that's a big reason why there is so much criticism of officials and coaches in the game of basketball. Generally speaking, the general public thinks they know more about the sport and can do at least as good as the paid professionals who devote endless hours to being successful in their chosen careers.


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 11:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Depends on the what your definition is and those who are just using the term for displacement.


Hoopsmom



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 8:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My husband and son are both baseball umpires - my husband has been for over 20 years, and my college-age son has been one since he was 14. He (son) has also reffed basketball games for the past 7 years, but he started doing winter and spring travel tournaments two years ago. The scheduler for both baseball and basketball is constantly sending messages because he is so short of umps and refs. He begs people to take more games. My son finds it a great way to pay for his college education, but he is 6’5” and can handle some of the yelling pretty well, having been a three sport athlete. He has ejected parents and coaches, in both baseball and basketball, but only when absolutely necessary and after warnings. He actually says the worst ones are the parents of fourth grade girls. In his words, the parents don’t think their daughters can do anything wrong and that the refs should go easy on them because they’re “just little girls”. But he knows better, having grown up watching his younger sister (a red shirt sophomore this year), knowing how tough and competitive the girls are.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 9:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In some ways, the younger games are the worst because a) the parents don't have any experience with team sports and officiating so they are way too emotional, and b) they still believe their child is way better than she is. By middle school, the parents have matured as fans, and it's become clear where their daughter fits in the scheme of things, talent-wise, and there tend to be fewer idiotic complaints.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 10:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

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CBiebel



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 11:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:


The beginning officials were nothing more than fans pulled out of the stands and that sort of perspective reflecting a lack of importance is what has set the standard that is at the root of the problem today. You have a multi million dollar business ( sports ) being ruined by a mom and pop store system.


What's amazing is when you read the really old history of sports and officiating.

For instance, in the 2nd ever ND-Michigan Football game in 1888, the ref for the game was the previous year's Michigan captain! Let's just say that there were some rather questionable calls according to eye witnesses... Wink

A few decades later, when college sports started to get really popular, the home coaches would hire the refs, and those refs were often beholden to those coaches for future employment (one mitigating factor was if the visiting coach would also often hire them for valuable games).

Even now you have "conference refs." Whenever you have out of conference Football games, you hear that it's an "ACC crew" or "SEC crew" or "Big 10 crew." Why aren't there just "NCAA crews?" Yes, I realize that the conferences are the ones with the money to pay the refs, but why not have the conferences give the money to the NCAA to have in a neutral fund for refs in general?


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/12/18 9:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
willtalk wrote:


The beginning officials were nothing more than fans pulled out of the stands and that sort of perspective reflecting a lack of importance is what has set the standard that is at the root of the problem today. You have a multi million dollar business ( sports ) being ruined by a mom and pop store system.


What's amazing is when you read the really old history of sports and officiating.

For instance, in the 2nd ever ND-Michigan Football game in 1888, the ref for the game was the previous year's Michigan captain! Let's just say that there were some rather questionable calls according to eye witnesses... Wink

A few decades later, when college sports started to get really popular, the home coaches would hire the refs, and those refs were often beholden to those coaches for future employment (one mitigating factor was if the visiting coach would also often hire them for valuable games).

Even now you have "conference refs." Whenever you have out of conference Football games, you hear that it's an "ACC crew" or "SEC crew" or "Big 10 crew." Why aren't there just "NCAA crews?" Yes, I realize that the conferences are the ones with the money to pay the refs, but why not have the conferences give the money to the NCAA to have in a neutral fund for refs in general?


Much as I dislike the thought of giving the NCAA control over anything, this isn't a bad idea. One reason for conferences controlling the officials is geographical, and another is pay scale, but the NCAA should be able to deal with those variables.



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