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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/08/18 11:34 pm    ::: Deleter Reply Reply with quote

Nevermind, changed my mind lol.




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GEF34



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PostPosted: 04/08/18 11:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Since you are calling him out, what is the status of the other refs, who do they follow and not follow, what do they post about. Why is he being singled out and yet nothing is noted about the other refs, it was a crew not a one man show.

And on another note of these "questionable calls" you are pointing out how many were his to make or ones he did make?



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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/08/18 11:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
Since you are calling him out, what is the status of the other refs, who do they follow and not follow, what do they post about. Why is he being singled out and yet nothing is noted about the other refs, it was a crew not a one man show.

And on another note of these "questionable calls" you are pointing out how many were his to make or ones he did make?


Isn't is common knowledge Dee Kantner is incompetent? Not sure she needs the calling out lol. The other refs are smart enough not to have a twitter account that is more religious than the Bible? He was the trailer who should have had a birds eye view on Mabrey-Morgan, arguably the most important non call.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 9:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is not common knowledge that Dee Kanter is incompetent. She is an excellent official, works hard, knows the rules, is in proper position, controls the game and doesn't put herself above the players.

Of course she makes bad calls -- it's an impossible game to officiate and often fans, players and coaches have better angles.

And how many games have you officiated, and what level?



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
It is not common knowledge that Dee Kanter is incompetent. She is an excellent official, works hard, knows the rules, is in proper position, controls the game and doesn't put herself above the players.

Of course she makes bad calls -- it's an impossible game to officiate and often fans, players and coaches have better angles.

And how many games have you officiated, and what level?


I don't always agree on your thoughts, but we are in complete agreement on this. Whenever she officiated any games I was involved with I thought she did a great job. Did she miss some calls, absolutely...who doesn't? With the pace of play and having 10 bodies out there moving around, it is very difficult to get every call right and quite honestly, it is impossible.

One of the things I always loved about her and a few others is that they are very willing to admit they may have gotten something wrong as well as they would try to look for something if the coach complained about something not getting called, such as illegal screens, traveling, etc. IMO, an official that can admit they may have missed something or made a mistake is a very confident official. Those are the ones I want doing my games. The officials that get defensive and don't want to talk to the coaches are the ones that are not confident in their abilities.

Dee is one of the best.


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PostPosted: 04/09/18 12:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fans are entitled to like or not like whomever they want among the player, coaching and reffing ranks. Remember how mercilessly Sally Bell was attacked: "Sally Bell, the ref from Hell." And she was a Naismith winning ref.

Me, I've long thought of Dee Kantner as perhaps the best ref in WBB. She was the co-first woman chosen to ref in the NBA.

I agree with the proposition that WBB has the best refs available to the sport and that it is unlikely that any system can be devised to produce better refs. All humans make mistakes, and in the game of basketball refs make fewer mistakes than the players or coaches. It's useless to demand perfection from refs, but it's equally hopeless that fan(atic)s will stop doing so.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 1:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sally Bell WAS awful. She got kicked upstairs, a living example of the Peter Principle.

YMMV and probably does. I was just glad when she got out of the SEC.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 3:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's interesting to me that people believe that refs who've been around for a long time aren't any good -- that's simply not the case. (Now it may be they hang on for a couple years too long, but they're still very likely to be above average. Experience means so much in officiating ...)

Officials are graded by their conferences, and by the coaches. Their games are reviewed on tape. In postseason, they are graded by the NCAA.

These grades have a lot to do with knowledge of the rules, floor positioning, communication, etc., because judgment calls are just that, judgment calls. A bad judgment call in the first quarter on the seventh player in the rotation counts just as much in the eyes of evaluators as a bad judgment call on a star in the final minute -- they both could have equal impact on the game.

Look, I've seen enough bad officiating in high school to last a lifetime -- and I would shine Sally Bell's shoes if she would do one of our games -- and your best chance at getting a well-officiated game is having an experienced ref who's done big games for a long time, because experience matters and those big game assignments only go to the best officials.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 4:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They grade what's out there....and truth to tell, a lot of times what's out there is just simply mediocre, period. They compare them with each other....and give the better grades to the best of a bad deal. I sit through CAA games and we get the dregs of the ACC. Good grief, can it get much worse? Every once in awhile you get a decent one, but mostly they are pretty sad.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 5:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
They grade what's out there....and truth to tell, a lot of times what's out there is just simply mediocre, period. They compare them with each other....and give the better grades to the best of a bad deal. I sit through CAA games and we get the dregs of the ACC. Good grief, can it get much worse? Every once in awhile you get a decent one, but mostly they are pretty sad.


Worse? Try high school. Try club ball. Try CYO.

Unless you're willing to ref yourself, or actively encourage others to do so, or actively quiet down those who scream at refs in the stands, or quiet down yourself if that applies to you, complaining about the officiating is like complaining about the weather.

No one can do anything about it, and when it's bad, pointing it out just makes it worse.



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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 6:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LOL 9 responses to a post I deleted.

The original post was a link to the twitter page of the male referee who worked the title game. It contained more Roman Catholic verses than the Bible. AND 2 RT's of the ND official accounts the weekend of the Final 4. Muffet did thank all the Catholics!


Howee



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PostPosted: 04/09/18 8:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, it was EASTER, ferChrissake! Razz Laughing



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CBiebel



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 3:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

acsuc99 wrote:
LOL 9 responses to a post I deleted.

The original post was a link to the twitter page of the male referee who worked the title game. It contained more Roman Catholic verses than the Bible. AND 2 RT's of the ND official accounts the weekend of the Final 4. Muffet did thank all the Catholics!


Do you seriously think that a ref makes calls based on religious affiliation.


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 3:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

acsuc99 wrote:
GEF34 wrote:
Since you are calling him out, what is the status of the other refs, who do they follow and not follow, what do they post about. Why is he being singled out and yet nothing is noted about the other refs, it was a crew not a one man show.

And on another note of these "questionable calls" you are pointing out how many were his to make or ones he did make?


Isn't is common knowledge Dee Kantner is incompetent? Not sure she needs the calling out lol. The other refs are smart enough not to have a twitter account that is more religious than the Bible? He was the trailer who should have had a birds eye view on Mabrey-Morgan, arguably the most important non call.


Two things:

1. It is a crew and the other refs could have also made the call.

2. If he had the "birds eye view" as you say, maybe he didn't see when others thought they saw on the TV angles. I've actually seen a post online from a neutral poster (A Tennessee fan) that suggested that Mabrey got all ball and that the MSU play was falling into Mabrey while trying to get the ball back. Was that accurate? Not sure. But it wasn't like the game was called with a lot of ticky-tack fouls. There was a very strong "let them play" element to the reffing.

I find it funny that so many people mention the "non-call" in the Championship, but often fail to bring up that the ND-UConn Semis shouldn't have gone to OT in the first place. Nurse's basket after the steal shouldn't have counted. How many steps did she take?


acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
acsuc99 wrote:
LOL 9 responses to a post I deleted.

The original post was a link to the twitter page of the male referee who worked the title game. It contained more Roman Catholic verses than the Bible. AND 2 RT's of the ND official accounts the weekend of the Final 4. Muffet did thank all the Catholics!


Do you seriously think that a ref makes calls based on religious affiliation.


After reading his 8000 tweets, absolutely.


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jesus, did I say that, well wtf, the freaking NCAA needs to be overhauled. When you have teenagers tweets being vetted, why the heck aren't employees vetted who have the power to change the results of a game. Can I hear a Tim Donaghy.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 12:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Officiating is hard under the best of circumstances, basketball especially so. Add in the constant travel and the verbal abuse they get on a nightly basis it's no wonder they have a hard time attracting new and better refs.



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Give me a break. They are paid to do a job, if they can't do it, hit the road like anyone else. Or get bounced when you are a liability.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
Give me a break. They are paid to do a job, if they can't do it, hit the road like anyone else. Or get bounced when you are a liability.


All people make mistakes at work. Until ref-bots are perfected, we're gonna have to live with some bad calls and missed calls.



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Brinx



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 1:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Was he retweeting ND before the game? If so, that does seem a little odd.

Doesn't mean the ref did anything shady, but you'd think the NCAA would advise refs not to post on social media making it clear which team they were pulling for.


acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Brinx wrote:
Was he retweeting ND before the game? If so, that does seem a little odd.

Doesn't mean the ref did anything shady, but you'd think the NCAA would advise refs not to post on social media making it clear which team they were pulling for.




RT official ND WBB account on March 30th (Semi Final day) and the ND official athletics twitter picture of "THE SHOT" against Miss State. Northeast based out of NYC, mostly works ACC, AAC, Big East games it seems. Follows ND, UConn, Louisville accounts and their coaches. Does not follow anything Miss State or SEC related.

I'm most troubled by the amount of Roman Catholic themed tweets. You can't prove it affected his calls but there were some questionable calls and reading through all his tweets, it's clear his Roman Catholic faith is a driving force in his life! Conflict of interest at the very least. Quick search of him shows he went to Roman Catholic high school and college. Muffet did thank the Catholics after she won for all you conspiracy theorists! And the game was on...EASTER! Laughing


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 5:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Give me a break. They are paid to do a job, if they can't do it, hit the road like anyone else. Or get bounced when you are a liability.


All people make mistakes at work. Until ref-bots are perfected, we're gonna have to live with some bad calls and missed calls.


Yep and when they do at that level they are FIRED.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
Give me a break. They are paid to do a job, if they can't do it, hit the road like anyone else. Or get bounced when you are a liability.


All people make mistakes at work. Until ref-bots are perfected, we're gonna have to live with some bad calls and missed calls.


Yep and when they do at that level they are FIRED.


Not really, and especially not in a union environment like the refs have.



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


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PostPosted: 04/10/18 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

hey pilight- did Nurse travel on her steal and game-tying layup?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 7:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
hey pilight- did Nurse travel on her steal and game-tying layup?


It was a close call. I lean toward yes, but it might be my anti-UConn bias.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/10/18 11:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
hey pilight- did Nurse travel on her steal and game-tying layup?


It was a close call. I lean toward yes, but it might be my anti-UConn bias.


I tried to find a definition of travel in the rules and reg.s, but only saw stuff dealing w/ pivot foots and jump stops.

I agree w/ your sense that you should probably be recused from the discussion.

Smile



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 7:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
I agree w/ your sense that you should probably be recused from the discussion.

Smile


You'll note that this is the first time I've said anything about it



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 9:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm still waiting for acsuc99 to let us know how many games he or she has officiated -- and there's a reason. Once you're on the court, working hard, you don't have time to think to yourself "No, call that on the white team, they're not Catholic." Or "Blow the whistle even though it wasn't a foul because the coach supported Trump in a tweet."

Those who've never reffed, or never read a rule book, find it very easy to criticize and come up with elaborate theories. So again, acsuc99, how many games have you officiated?



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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 1:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LOL So I have to REF a game in order to be qualified enough to offer an opinion that it was inappropriate for this guy to be on the court due to a conflict of interest.

Did you read the guys 8000+ tweets? Because I did. That's what I am basing my opinion on.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

acsuc99 wrote:
LOL So I have to REF a game in order to be qualified enough to offer an opinion that it was inappropriate for this guy to be on the court due to a conflict of interest.

Did you read the guys 8000+ tweets? Because I did. That's what I am basing my opinion on.


You read all 8000+ tweets?



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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
acsuc99 wrote:
LOL So I have to REF a game in order to be qualified enough to offer an opinion that it was inappropriate for this guy to be on the court due to a conflict of interest.

Did you read the guys 8000+ tweets? Because I did. That's what I am basing my opinion on.


You read all 8000+ tweets?


Yup. Scrolled through the entire thing. It was too disturbing to look away. I haven't been to church in years and probably read more Catholic verses than a regular church goer that one day on his feed.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 1:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


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PostPosted: 04/11/18 1:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Who is this alleged theocrat and where is his damning Twitter feed?
acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Who is this alleged theocrat and where is his damning Twitter feed?


Very Happy




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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


People are free to practice whatever religion they want.

But read through his feed. And than tell me he should have been on a court officiating a title game involving the worlds most famous Roman Catholic school.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

acsuc99 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


People are free to practice whatever religion they want.

But read through his feed. And than tell me he should have been on a court officiating a title game involving the worlds most famous Roman Catholic school.


So Catholics can't be objective?



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acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 3:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
acsuc99 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


People are free to practice whatever religion they want.

But read through his feed. And than tell me he should have been on a court officiating a title game involving the worlds most famous Roman Catholic school.


So Catholics can't be objective?


Ones that have nearly 7000 tweets about the religion on his feed? Probably not.

Only he himself knows if he could be fair and impartial. I do know I saw Morgan Williams tackled on a fastbreak with 5 seconds left in a tied National Title game and Joe the trail ref couldn't make the call.


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PostPosted: 04/11/18 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

acsuc99 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Who is this alleged theocrat and where is his damning Twitter feed?


Very Happy


I don't understand. We're discussing a ref and his Twitter feed, yet you seem to be unwilling, unable or not allowed to identify him or post a link to the Twitter feed under discussion? What's going on?
ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 5:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So the answer for acsuc99 is "No, I have never officiated a game."

Of course that doesn't mean you can't criticize the officiating, but it does mean that your accusations don't reflect any experience or in-depth understanding of what the job entails.

More specifically, to imply a Catholic conspiracy that is activated during games in which any Catholic school is playing -- or, one would suspect, any Catholic player -- is based on a complete lack of comprehension of how the profession works.

If you want to criticize officials for making bad calls, that's perfectly fine, because of course they do. But if you want to do much more than that, you need to bring more to the table than vague theories of religious bias. An analysis of the official's calls over many games involving Catholic schools would be helpful rather than some hand-waving about "obvious incompetence."

And how exactly would you know "obvious incompetence" except in the matter of judgment calls you disagree with? How about proper positioning? Knowledge of the rules? Game management?

If you're going to accuse people of bias and incompetence, then it's reasonable to ask your credentials for doing so -- and if you don't have much more to offer than being a fan, then your criticisms will be treated with the respect they deserve.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware



Which Rebkell poster/s, specifically, ArtBest23, did you refer to above as a clown?



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 6:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
acsuc99 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Who is this alleged theocrat and where is his damning Twitter feed?


Very Happy


I don't understand. We're discussing a ref and his Twitter feed, yet you seem to be unwilling, unable or not allowed to identify him or post a link to the Twitter feed under discussion? What's going on?


The official's twitter feed is a never-ending string of retweets from Catholic and women's basketball figures, most of whom he follows. Make of that what you will, since he also follows Reebok, musicians, the Kay Yow Cancer Fund, Doris Burke, the Dallas Cowboys, and my Baptist alma mater. If he's posted original tweets of his own, I couldn't readily find them among all the retweets although I admittedly didn't read even close to all 8000 of them.

His account has already attracted a very disturbing hate-speech-filled diatribe from someone, so I'm going to refrain from posting a link here.


calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 3082
Location: Carson City


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PostPosted: 04/11/18 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


I said no such thing. What I said was that the appearance of bias is sometimes as bad as bias itself. And I also said that if the issue has been raised (as it has) then it should be investigated. No prejudgment. I do want refs who are professional and who are above reproach. I do not want an alum of a school, or a parent of a student at a school, to officiate that school's game, whether or not they can be totally objective. I do not believe that this referee should necessarily be banned from doing Notre Dame games, but it does concern me if he was on a Notre Dame website making comments or liking them within 48 hours of the game.

I also believe that most bias by referees is subconscious. And I believe that there are many competent referees to choose from so that if there is the potential for conflict it should be avoided. I was not making any type of anti-Catholic or anti-Notre Dame statement, and if you reread my statement you would find that to be the case.

Calling for an investigation is a responsible thing to do. Allowing, or even supporting such an investigation would be the appropriate position for both the referee, Notre Dame and its fans to take. Vilifying the idea of an investigation sounds very similar to our current president who either fears or knows what such an investigation would show.

My guess is that such an investigation would not show a pattern of bias, but could make recommendations regarding the use of certain types of social media activity. It seems that would be a good thing, and could lead to a broader discussion of social media comments on officiating by players and coaches as well.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 12724



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 7:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

acsuc99 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


People are free to practice whatever religion they want.

But read through his feed. And than tell me he should have been on a court officiating a title game involving the worlds most famous Roman Catholic school.


You're just digging yourself an even deeper and more shameful hole.


cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 10754
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PostPosted: 04/11/18 8:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am also not someone that routinely criticizes referees, and in particular rarely criticizes them for having a direct bias. That said, some of the comments on this thread are troubling. I absolutely do not believe that there was any intentional bias but this type of issue should be reviewed, not just on an individual game basis but as an overall review of his work and social media practice. I believe that unintentional bias, whether in favor of a home team with a loud crowd, a star coach, player or team is prevalent, and it would not shock me if their was some unintentional bias with regard to a deeply held religious belief. That is not an indictment but just an understanding of human nature.

As I was watching the game I noticed a few questionable calls but did not believe that the referees influenced the outcome, so I am not coming at this from any position. But it is never a good thing if such issues are raised, as appearance of unbiased officiating is often as important the officiating itself.


So you want to start barring refs based on race or political affiliation too? You have any other "deeply held" biases?

The premise of this thread and your post are outlandish and truly offensive.

You clowns probably believe JF Kennedy took his orders from the Pope too.

That's called bigotry in case you were unaware


I said no such thing. What I said was that the appearance of bias is sometimes as bad as bias itself. And I also said that if the issue has been raised (as it has) then it should be investigated. No prejudgment. I do want refs who are professional and who are above reproach. I do not want an alum of a school, or a parent of a student at a school, to officiate that school's game, whether or not they can be totally objective. I do not believe that this referee should necessarily be banned from doing Notre Dame games, but it does concern me if he was on a Notre Dame website making comments or liking them within 48 hours of the game.

I also believe that most bias by referees is subconscious. And I believe that there are many competent referees to choose from so that if there is the potential for conflict it should be avoided. I was not making any type of anti-Catholic or anti-Notre Dame statement, and if you reread my statement you would find that to be the case.

Calling for an investigation is a responsible thing to do. Allowing, or even supporting such an investigation would be the appropriate position for both the referee, Notre Dame and its fans to take. Vilifying the idea of an investigation sounds very similar to our current president who either fears or knows what such an investigation would show.

My guess is that such an investigation would not show a pattern of bias, but could make recommendations regarding the use of certain types of social media activity. It seems that would be a good thing, and could lead to a broader discussion of social media comments on officiating by players and coaches as well.



Don't worry, he won't reply. He never does when trounced.

More importantly, I can't find those 8,000 tweets.



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Brinx



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PostPosted: 04/11/18 10:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't see an issue with the religious tweets, but I don't think it's a wild idea to think that the refs for a national championship game should not be retweeting and liking only one participating team. That just opens the door up to this exact type of criticizing and accusing.


CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 646
Location: PA


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PostPosted: 04/11/18 11:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I do have to say that it's an interesting twist to have someone say that ND won because a ref was pro-Catholic. It used to be ND losing because a ref was anti-Catholic Wink (actually, there were probably cases where that was true, but that was at least 80-100 years ago).

There was even an epic troll post about it back on the old "rec.sports.football.college" usenet newsgroup (how many people remember those?). On that newsgroup, "fishing" (aka trolling) was not only tolerated, it was actually encouraged as part of that newsgroup's culture.

After Boston College beat ND 30-11 (It was a really bad season for ND that year), a poster created a new username (Maria Pescadero) and posted: "It wasn't Lou Holts's (sic) fault that BC beat ND. The refs were obviously anti-Catholic!"


CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 646
Location: PA


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PostPosted: 04/11/18 11:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Brinx wrote:
I don't see an issue with the religious tweets, but I don't think it's a wild idea to think that the refs for a national championship game should not be retweeting and liking only one participating team. That just opens the door up to this exact type of criticizing and accusing.


I do agree that the refs should refrain from retweeting stuff, etc.

I also think that the calls of the refs should be reviewed overall for quality control, particularly for bigger games.

I'm not saying for this particular instance. I mean as a general policy, and I'd like to think that that would be the case, anyway.

While coaches can't publicly make comments about refs, they can "go through channels" (usually their ADs contacting conference commissioners, who take it up with the NCAA or reffing organizations) to have concerns met.


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 7574
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PostPosted: 04/11/18 11:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe this could lighten up everyone's mood?

https://youtu.be/lwYcfFvn-uY

Razz



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taropatch



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: 04/12/18 2:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
I do have to say that it's an interesting twist to have someone say that ND won because a ref was pro-Catholic. It used to be ND losing because a ref was anti-Catholic Wink (actually, there were probably cases where that was true, but that was at least 80-100 years ago).

There was even an epic troll post about it back on the old "rec.sports.football.college" usenet newsgroup (how many people remember those?). On that newsgroup, "fishing" (aka trolling) was not only tolerated, it was actually encouraged as part of that newsgroup's culture.

After Boston College beat ND 30-11 (It was a really bad season for ND that year), a poster created a new username (Maria Pescadero) and posted: "It wasn't Lou Holts's (sic) fault that BC beat ND. The refs were obviously anti-Catholic!"


Maria, BC is also a Catholic school.


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