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Sherri Coale on the state of WCBB & the P word

 
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stever



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PostPosted: 04/02/18 3:29 pm    ::: Sherri Coale on the state of WCBB & the P word Reply Reply with quote

http://newsok.com/article/5589292

Quote:
The game as it was created for men, however long ago (James) Naismith put the peach basket up, it’s about spacing and movement and passing and this very artistic, intelligent game, skilled game, played below the rim. And women can do that in a beautiful way. Connecticut is a perfect example of that.



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jimmyk



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PostPosted: 04/02/18 9:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

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On the notion the Connecticut is bad for women’s basketball:

“Oh, the question that just keeps reinventing itself."


She's exactly right. It's been said about Connecticut three or four times, and Tennessee at least twice. And the combination of the two a few times. If Memphis or Tulsa or Iowa State ran off a bunch of titles in a row, the same thing would happen.

Since I've been gone, I've left NASCAR completely as a fan except for the big tracks and Bristol. Part of it is because they let Jimmie Johnson win 5 in a row. In the 90's, if the same make of car (forget driver) kept winning, NASCAR changed the rules mid-stream to make the others more competitive. Catering to the fans at a time when they needed to.

Otherwise, Earnhardt would've had 10 championships...especially after 1993 when Kulwicki and Allison were lost. Useful rule changes to make things competitive didn't happen in the '00s. Therefore, JJ wins 5 in a row...and now he's got 7, tying a record that should've been untouchable.

I understand this is somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison because there's not much equipment in basketball to change. But the point is, if the same team wins too much, people will leave.

How to fix that? Teenagers need to be interested in going somewhere other than Connecticut. My new alma mater (as of last May), Mississippi State, is refreshing in a big way. I think they're the Gonzaga of women's hoops. The Zags kind of broke through the power conferences and made a name for themselves, which is what State's doing since last year's UConn upset and being seconds from national champions this year. In a conference that was all Tennessee all the time 20 years ago, it ain't that way now.

Can the Bulldogs keep the momentum going after losing all those seniors? That'll be a big deal moving forward, and it'll be interesting to watch. But if we can get a non-traditional school to regularly knock off the powerhouses, THAT I think will help the women's game.

I have other thoughts about ESPN, the Lady Vols, and the officials in the women's game, but I'll hold off on that. Smile


Queenie



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PostPosted: 04/02/18 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hey, welcome back! Congrats on finishing that program at State!

I've said this before and I'll say it again: UConn themselves is not the problem, but the incessant hyping and centering of UConn by the media (mostly ESPN, but even the Associated Press had some dumb headlines after the semis). The game is healthier, more enjoyable, more sustainable, and probably less wanky when the talent is more distributed and more teams are successful. I'd love to see more players lauded for staying local, for choosing non-traditional-power schools, for building programs instead of following in others' footsteps.

There's a post, a parallel, a contrast, rattling around in my head. I don't know if it's one anyone else here would make. Azura Stevens wasn't the only D-I player in her family, y'know. She's got an older sister, one who grew up in Stamford. Da'Shena said there were two kinds of players in Connecticut- the ones who wanted to play for UConn and the ones who wanted to beat UConn. Day was the second kind, and her senior year, Nadirah McKenith hit a three at the half and Shenneika Smith hit a three at the end, and it happened. Once. But once was enough. I guess Azura was the first kind at the end, even if she spent those formative years in North Carolina.

But Da'Shena's dichotomy can be applied in a broader sense (hopefully she won't mind). Two kinds of players: the ones who want to play for the big name programs, and the ones who want to beat the big name programs. The maintainers, and the builders. The ones who are drawn what already *is*, and the ones who see what *could* be.

I'm rambling a bit. It just seems like the high visibility of the current haves, combined with the increased transfer rate of top-notch players, has the potential to either concentrate talent to a non-competitive level or to spread it far and wide.



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jimmyk



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PostPosted: 04/02/18 11:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie, that message means a lot...because we didn't exactly leave off on the best of terms. Thank you for the congrats and welcome! It's good to be back, even if I had to get Luuuc to fix my account after 7 years being gone.

Staying local. I believe in that. But with the internet and especially now with social media, you can go anywhere and get anyone, pretty much. The world is so much smaller than it was in the 70's when Pat Summitt got started with local kids or when Walter Payton ran for Jackson State on his way to the all-time rushing yards record.

I'll hold off talking about ESPN. I don't want to get myself in trouble before I've been back for a full day. Smile


elsie



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PostPosted: 04/03/18 1:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the NCAA stands in the way of expanding womens bb...

the way they "rate" teams, and the way they have secret coded rules for some transfers but not others, and the way they keep employing the same lame refs...


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 04/03/18 2:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Two kinds of players: the ones who want to play for the big name programs, and the ones who want to beat the big name programs. The maintainers, and the builders. The ones who are drawn what already *is*, and the ones who see what *could* be.



This reminds me of a comment by Beth (Morgan) Cunningham. I think it was in the McGraw book that came out after the 2001 NC.

She said that her choice came down to ND vs Stanford. At the time, Stanford was one of the major powers (okay, it's no slouch now, but it had really recent NCs back then).

However, she chose ND over Stanford because she wanted to build a program, not just maintain it. And now she's known as one of the main architects of it, having lead ND to their first Final Four.

Of course, now ND needs the other kind of player... Wink


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/03/18 2:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

elsie wrote:
I think the NCAA stands in the way of expanding womens bb...

the way they "rate" teams, and the way they have secret coded rules for some transfers but not others, and the way they keep employing the same lame refs...


And where would they get better refs?



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zune69



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PostPosted: 04/03/18 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Connecticut is a perfect example of that.


Very disappointed that Coach Coale could not use her team as the example.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 8:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jimmyk wrote:

Since I've been gone, I've left NASCAR completely as a fan except for the big tracks and Bristol. Part of it is because they let Jimmie Johnson win 5 in a row. In the 90's, if the same make of car (forget driver) kept winning, NASCAR changed the rules mid-stream to make the others more competitive. Catering to the fans at a time when they needed to.


I'm guessing you were hoping there were no other NASCAR fans on here because that right there is hilarious and so not true. How many different formats has he won titles under? How many different types of cars and rules packages did he win under? Everyone today jokes about the fact that NASCAR changed the rules almost every time he won a title.

And the comment "they let him win 5 in a row" is one of the funniest things I have read in a long, long time. My god, that is internet gold right there.

I'm not even a Jimmie Johnson fan, but you have to appreciate greatness when you see it. Clearly a lot of the Petty & Earnhardt fans (even some Gordon fans) just can't accept that someone else has gotten to their level or (gasp) possibly even surpassed them.

I would liken this to the reception that Yankees, Patriots, Canadians get because, quite frankly, they just win/won too damn much.


Speebs56



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One point that I have not seen related to transferring is players who may feel they've more to learn by a different coach. Or the realization that a program just isn't the right fit.

I can't help but think that if you're a true women's basketball fan, all of this nonsense about winning "too much" being bad for the game is just noise. The assumptions many make about why things happen as they do, why some programs get attention, why some players gravitate to some schools over others, seems largely based on conjecture, with little to no basis in fact.

Kinda amazing to me.

I attended Ole Miss when Van Chancellor was coach and the Lady Rebs made the first 14 NCAA tourneys. Unfortunately for Rebel fans, Pat Summitt and U of Tennessee, along with Andy Landers at Georgia, and the Auburn Lady Tigers ALL were powers in the SEC. The Lady Vols ruled the land for so long.....but it didn't turn me off to women's ball. Just made me root harder for Ole Miss...and look around to find a team that might knock off UT. Lo and behold, out of the northeast came UConn. They took down UT (although not always) and I became a fan.

Unfortunately, UConn didn't help my Lady Rebs! Sad

I really don't believe that viewership and increased fan bases are only going to appear when NO team is dominant. Interest has only grown over the years, and whether it was UT or UConn leading the pack, interest in the women's game has not declined. And NO team can dominate forever. Not even UConn!


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 12:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Speebs56 wrote:
One point that I have not seen related to transferring is players who may feel they've more to learn by a different coach. Or the realization that a program just isn't the right fit.

I can't help but think that if you're a true women's basketball fan, all of this nonsense about winning "too much" being bad for the game is just noise. The assumptions many make about why things happen as they do, why some programs get attention, why some players gravitate to some schools over others, seems largely based on conjecture, with little to no basis in fact.

Kinda amazing to me.

I attended Ole Miss when Van Chancellor was coach and the Lady Rebs made the first 14 NCAA tourneys. Unfortunately for Rebel fans, Pat Summitt and U of Tennessee, along with Andy Landers at Georgia, and the Auburn Lady Tigers ALL were powers in the SEC. The Lady Vols ruled the land for so long.....but it didn't turn me off to women's ball. Just made me root harder for Ole Miss...and look around to find a team that might knock off UT. Lo and behold, out of the northeast came UConn. They took down UT (although not always) and I became a fan.

Unfortunately, UConn didn't help my Lady Rebs! Sad

I really don't believe that viewership and increased fan bases are only going to appear when NO team is dominant. Interest has only grown over the years, and whether it was UT or UConn leading the pack, interest in the women's game has not declined. And NO team can dominate forever. Not even UConn!


Some interesting points here, especially the one about transferring. At JMU we've recently (since I've been a fan) received transfers from St. John's, Stetson, Virginia Tech, and Siena. I have no idea why any of them transferred, but the ones I've seen play (Jackie Benitez, the Siena transfer, is sitting out and had knee surgery in February) certainly have done well, although the Stetson transfer got herself kicked off the team this year, for what I don't know, and has not been seen on campus since.

I was a Lady Vol fan for years and years, living as I did some 45 miles from TBA and having season tickets for a long time. Then I moved around for awhile and finally settled in Richmond, where I followed VCU for awhile, though not closely. When I moved up here I started going to JMU games and pretty soon gave in and bought season tickets. The Man, who had never been any kind of a basketball fan (men's or women's) before, now follows JMU as ardently as I do and will watch women's games and even some men's college games on TV with me. It's different being a mid-major fan but no less exciting. Your goals are different....winning the conference (which might guarantee a one-and-done in the NCAA), or taking a second place or tying, which might make for a tidy little run in the WNIT, or maybe just having a winning season.



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bballjunkie



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 2:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is not that simple. Uconn puts a great product out there. The jealousy of the winning is a problem and a lot of the press has been negative, especially this year. The fact that certain people cannot appreciate that product shows that there is something wrong and I don’t see that as much on the guys side. There are more than 2 types of players out there. There are actually some players who have the balls to go to Uconn, where they won’t be coddled, won’t be allowed to continually not get in a stance and actually want to become a better player. The result is those players are the ones and they are pretty prevalent, playing at the next level.


Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 2:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You are correct. I remember the days everyone in the PAC hated Stanford, Oh how I yearn for those days Laughing


Howee



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 9:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Quote:
Connecticut is a perfect example of that.

Very disappointed that Coach Coale could not use her team as the example.

C'mon, Zune....Sherri wouldn't toot her own horn. At least, not at the end of one of her more--lackluster!--seasons! Laughing

I agree with her completely, though: UConn's current dominance has, imo, only brought MORE attention to the game we love. Funny, I've never heard anyone say Serena's dominance on the world tennis scene has been bad for the sport....or Steffi's or Martina's, etc....wouldn't that be the same logic?

UConn (most currently) has set The Standard for what women can achieve in this sport; they usurped TN in this role, who usurped LaTech, Old Dominion, etc. And none of these teams would be where they are, if they hadn't had each other to measure up to, along with the 'lesser' teams to vie with, and demonstrate their prowess against: the Cincinnatis, the George Masons, the Appalachian States, etc., etc.

And now, even the hacks know (more) about Notre Dame, Mississippi State, Oregon, even Buffalo and CMU. It's been a good season, and a great tourney.



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jimmyk



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
I'm guessing you were hoping there were no other NASCAR fans on here because that right there is hilarious and so not true.


Nope. In fact, I'm happy there is a NASCAR fan here. I'm not other than the big tracks and Bristol...the former because the wrecks are bigger, and the latter because it keeps my hometown afloat. We wouldn't exist without that. And gosh, that football game was AMAZING. Smile

purduefanatic wrote:
How many different formats has he won titles under? How many different types of cars and rules packages did he win under?


Good point. I'm thinking NASCAR didn't change the rules effectively enough during the 5 in a row like happened during earlier years. They didn't change points when Earnhardt tried to win every race other than the Daytona 500 in the 1990s. They just changed the cars. Remember when Rusty Wallace won 10 races...I think in '93? They screwed up Pontiac so bad after that they dropped out completely.

purduefanatic wrote:
And the comment "they let him win 5 in a row" is one of the funniest things I have read in a long, long time. My god, that is internet gold right there.


At the very least, Rick Hendrick let him win five in a row. He could've won five in a row with five different drivers in that time. My point is that NASCAR didn't fix the lack of competitive balance well enough during the half a decade Johnson won everything.

purduefanatic wrote:
I'm not even a Jimmie Johnson fan, but you have to appreciate greatness when you see it. Clearly a lot of the Petty & Earnhardt fans (even some Gordon fans) just can't accept that someone else has gotten to their level or (gasp) possibly even surpassed them.


Part of my problem with NASCAR these days is that it's become a glorified IROC. All the cars are the same. Ford, Toyota and Chevy are just as much stickers on the cars as Interstate Batteries, M&M's, Diet Mountain Dew or Jimmy John's.

Also...I hated Earnhardt, and only noticed King Richard when he tore down the catch fence at Daytona in 1988. I haven't had a favorite driver since July 13, 1993. Stupid helicopters.

I'll stop hijacking the thread here. But if you haven't heard John Boy and Billy's "The Bristol Song," you should try to find it. It's hilarious. Smile


GEF34



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 11:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

elsie wrote:
I think the NCAA stands in the way of expanding womens bb...

the way they "rate" teams, and the way they have secret coded rules for some transfers but not others, and the way they keep employing the same lame refs...


I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure it would violate some privacy laws if the NCAA made public waiver requests and letters written on behalf of the player in question, especially if there are medical records/issues or maybe legal issues that are part of the reason for the transfers.



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jimmyk



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PostPosted: 04/04/18 11:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It occurs to me...as much as non UConn fans want to see them lose, what are the chances that the refs are the same way?

How many times have we seen 15 point leads in women's hoops vanish into thin air? Are the officials calling the game straight to the way they actually see it, or are they trying to make it close?

We complain a lot about the refs. What if they're calling an agenda and not merely being stupid? And what if the agenda is more nefarious than the situations mentioned here?

AND...what if the NCAA is forcing any agenda through said refs? Hmm....


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PostPosted: 04/05/18 10:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jimmyk wrote:
It occurs to me...as much as non UConn fans want to see them lose, what are the chances that the refs are the same way?

How many times have we seen 15 point leads in women's hoops vanish into thin air? Are the officials calling the game straight to the way they actually see it, or are they trying to make it close?

We complain a lot about the refs. What if they're calling an agenda and not merely being stupid? And what if the agenda is more nefarious than the situations mentioned here?

AND...what if the NCAA is forcing any agenda through said refs? Hmm....


As always, let's think this through ...

So an NCAA rep comes into the officials' locker room before the semifinal game and says "Folks, keep this close. If a team gets too far ahead, start cheating ..."

Unlikely, I'd say. More subtle? "So you've been assigned to the Final Four, but remember, ratings are everything. Need I say more?"

And overall, look at pilight's chart: There were many more blowouts and fewer close games on the women's side than the men's -- if the NCAA is mandating (through unclear means) close games, they're not doing a very good job.

Final point: The risk involved in any such game-rigging is pretty high. Let's say Ref A doesn't get the Final Four assignment next year because despite her best efforts, UConn wins a game by 30. If she's upset and goes to the media about the game-rigging, it's all over ...



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/05/18 12:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The NBA bounces refs for sub par games like these, what do the NCAAs do? If you look at how they manage everything else then you should have little hope that they do anything right other than lining their pocket books.


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PostPosted: 04/06/18 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ben Hogan
Sam Snead
Arnold Palmer
Jack Nicklaus
Tiger Woods
UCLA
Tennessee, UConn
Lakers and Celtics
Penquins, Bruins, Canadians
Mike Tyson etc.
Shaq, Koby, Labron, Michael
Etc., Etc.

You need a Top Dog in every sport (era) or you just end up with Broth...


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