RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

Are You the Product of a Private or Public School Education?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » Area 51
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Did you attend primarily private or public schools during your K-12 education?
Public School
77%
 77%  [ 27 ]
Private School
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Tuition Free Private School
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Attended Both Private and Public Schools
20%
 20%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 35

Author Message
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
So Justin, you said that less than 1% of kids go to these elite K-12 schools? That's interesting. Two thoughts there. I mean, if it's close to 1%, that's still a lot of people. And I'm wondering how that percentage goes up around places like NYC, LA, DC, Chicago, SF, Boston, etc., where the money and the power already is.

The 1% really depends on where you draw the line for these "elite" schools. As you noted, where to draw the line between different types of private schools, where your run-of-the-mill private school crosses into the high-end category, is far from a science.

Money is by far and away the biggest factor in getting kids into these top schools. There are some scholarships for high performing kids, but those are a huge minority. Some schools also are big sports schools that give out scholarships for that as well (Shattuck-St. Mary's here in Minnesota, and their hockey tradition, is an example of that).

But for the most part it is more of the entrenchment of social class and why people who come from money are much more likely to remain in that social class than those who come from without.



_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

But for the most part it is more of the entrenchment of social class and why people who come from money are much more likely to remain in that social class than those who come from without.


Bingo. And I'll just come out with it. I think these schools, and especially what goes on inside of them, is a huge factor in what maintains the lines perpetuating the economic and social classes in the United States. I think when you turn on your televisions or open a newspaper, you're pretty much getting the perspective of those who attended incredibly expensive K-12 schools, together, and it is a perspective that above all values its own place in the relative scheme of things. That's the reporters and those who the reporters are reporting on either in business, government, or the arts. Anyway. I'll get to what triggered this because it is itself a jammer rabbit hole. Speaking of rabbit holes.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools. We say desirable, hard to get into, etc. Why exactly are those things the take away perspective on these high end private schools? I'm not talking about herd mentality as it exists in Malibu or Sausalito. I'm talking educational nuts and bolts.

We here, a smart group who I know is focused on hoping the world changes for the better, should be asking and discussing, WHAT exactly is the fairy dust being sprinkled on these kids for $33K a year? What's the educational formula at work in those schools? What's the curriculum entail? What's an average day like in kindergarten or the first or second grade? Can any of it be replicated? Why not? Heck, can we stream live from those classrooms into some remote classrooms somewhere else? Why wouldn't the elites who send their kids to these schools want us to do ANY of that? Just assuming they wouldn't. Wink


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.



_________________
Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/13/18 7:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools.


No. I'm wrong here. You don't have to contrast that all with the struggles we have in public schools. That's another rabbit hole. What am I trying to get at?

There's something creative, incredibly creative, happening in these schools. The adults they produce are like advanced aliens compared to most everyone else in this country. They so easily fit into the many so coveted career paths. Curators, conductors, television producers, the diplomatic corps, Google Wink, big city journalism. And on and on. They recognize each other like they all have a third eye only they can see.

We do have to contrast and compare this to public schools but a) we're a long way from even (it appears) starting a conversation about what's going on in these schools and b) we need to MAYBE compare these schools and the results that are a given for them to even our more successful public schools. Start there. What's the differences between the elite private schools and the culture there and the graduates they produce with what is happening in our best public schools.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/13/18 8:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.


That's why I quickly added my last post. In the context of what I hope this thread becomes, a discussion of public schools is kind of a non-starter.

OTOH. It's extremely complicated and I would think endlessly interesting subject matter to open up the world of these ultra-expensive K-12 private schools in America to closer scrutiny. And how have we not been doing that for these many decades? Think about that. I hear these anchors on the networks just in the last couple of days during the latest DeVos dust up struggling to work around a conversation sticking to the same tired talking points about our failing public schools. These people producing content around the discussion on education know a lot more about why education worked so well for them and why it’s not working for poorer children than they’re letting on.

And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15690
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 12:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


AHHHH. Finally. Your point! Cool

Lesson #1: In organizing a lesson for productive learning, it's best to begin with the statement of your objective: what do you intend to accomplish in that learning experience. (see the likes of: Madeline Hunter) i.e., "Today kiddos, we're going to make wing models that demonstrate Bernoulli's principle. What do you think we need?"

For us here, you might have saved some time by just stating: "I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them. Discuss how we can prove or disprove it."



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15690
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 1:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.


Horse pucky. And only because they are NOT all "run poorly". Many are splendid.

jammerbirdi wrote:
And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools.

We here, a smart group who I know is focused on hoping the world changes for the better, should be asking and discussing, WHAT exactly is the fairy dust being sprinkled on these kids for $33K a year? What's the educational formula at work in those schools? What's the curriculum entail? What's an average day like in kindergarten or the first or second grade? Can any of it be replicated? Why not?


While I understand your larger point here jammer, you're falling victim to the typical political scam foisted on us by politicians, for the most part. What I'm saying would make much more sense to you if YOU had to sit in/observe classes in 10 different schools: 5 elite private, 5 public. In 10 different cities. Homogeneity and similarities are surprisingly missing as you compare and contrast them all.

Having BEEN a learner in, and TAUGHT in both settings (yes, Lutheran schools can be on the 'elite' side) the number one difference isn't so 'mystical': IT'S THE PARENTS, AND THE TONES THEY/THEIR COMMUNITY ESTABLISH RE: THE SOCIAL/RELIGIOUS/CULTURAL EXPECTATION. Committed, involved parents produce a better educational milieu, and the teachers are actually secondary to that.

When I was a teacher, I made it a point to spend time each year observing in another school that might be like my own, or different. Across the board, one could predict a general reputation of success by the community involvement invested in the school, not by its tuition rate (or 'freeness').

Another factor is homogeneity. Not necessarily ethnic/racial but cultural and social demographics can be a big factor. I point to Finland, where their PUBLIC SCHOOLS lead the world in productive education, with the highest test standards. WITH LESS TIME SPENT IN SCHOOL THAN AMERICAN KIDS. Michael Moore did a documentary on that not long ago. Couldn't stomach that.

The film was intended to shame Americans, regarding such disparities in educational results. It fails to point out that Finland has a population the size of Kentucky, with even more homogeneity. For them to produce a Better Product is logistically far more practical than here, where we nationalize standard tests to compare kids from Compton and Naperville and White Plains and The Bronx. And our system is designed to include ALL, to evaluate ALL kids, and add them into the National Norms. If Finland had to round up all the Lapp natives above the arctic circle to count them in their scores, hmmm....well, think about it.

I agree, public education doesn't always match the standards some elite private schools may set, but....it's a bit contrived to be a realistic analysis. And it certainly shouldn't serve as grounds for an indictment of ALL public schools.



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 2:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


AHHHH. Finally. Your point! Cool

Lesson #1: In organizing a lesson for productive learning, it's best to begin with the statement of your objective: what do you intend to accomplish in that learning experience. (see the likes of: Madeline Hunter) i.e., "Today kiddos, we're going to make wing models that demonstrate Bernoulli's principle. What do you think we need?"

For us here, you might have saved some time by just stating: "I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them. Discuss how we can prove or disprove it."


Hmm. That's not a statement of my objective. That was the rabbit hole I was trying to avoid. Here's a productive learning tip from jammerbirdi. Read carefully and comprehend what you read.

I'm sorry you think that (whatever it was) is what I should have done in this thread, but I don't know why I would want to skip over the exact conversation I'm most interested in having and instead have a discussion of how we can improve public schools.

I made the point above that there's so much to be learned about elite private K-12 schools, both here on Rebkell's, but also in America, where very few are even aware that schools like this exist at the level they do. So focusing directly on these elite private schools themselves and learning everything we can about them is what really interests me here and honestly it's interested me for a very long time. I want to focus and talk about super expensive private K-12 schools and who goes there, how much they cost, curriculum, typical days, etc. (as I stated above.) I really want to know what parents who send their children there think about the importance of these schools and why and who those parents are.

As only one person here has attended and received a K-12 education in this type of learning environment, I know all of you here have as much to learn about this as I do. You guys can talk about anything you want to talk about but this is why I started this thread. I don't want to get drawn down a rabbit hole of what exactly is a private school and I've tried to be self-deprecating but I also am not interested in talking about what I did wrong.

Let the sunshine in, people. This elite private school world is not your world or my world. It is outside any of our experiences educationally, socially, or economically. If you want to talk about it, blow the roof of all this other shit and let the light in and talk about it. If not, don't talk about it.

I think for me, I would add or admit that there is a political aspect to all of this. I'm incredibly concerned (that's a nice word) about growing economic inequality and what is behind it and what can be done to mitigate it. I would not shy away from joining a class warfare army. I feel the elites in this country have been waging and winning a class war against everyone else for a very long time but their efforts have been paying off so well in the last few decades as to have created something grotesque and unacceptable in America.

So in order to foment greater anger and dissatisfaction and give people the rhetoric to match their outrage, or the outrage they don't even have yet on this subject, I think it's important to dissect and understand everything that helps to create this growing inequality. And, as I said, I put the importance of what the children of the affluent get from these private school educations at the forefront of what gives elites the tools, networks, and shared experiences to perpetuate what has turned them into a dynasty in America.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 4:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
pilight wrote:
Public schools are government run, which means they're run poorly. It isn't really any more complicated than that.


Horse pucky. And only because they are NOT all "run poorly". Many are splendid.

jammerbirdi wrote:
And you have to juxtapose this, or place it in a context with the INCREDIBLE struggles we have in this country to adequately educate our kids in the public school system. The failure at getting kids to reach standards in reading and math. You contrast that with what is going on inside these incredibly effective private schools.

We here, a smart group who I know is focused on hoping the world changes for the better, should be asking and discussing, WHAT exactly is the fairy dust being sprinkled on these kids for $33K a year? What's the educational formula at work in those schools? What's the curriculum entail? What's an average day like in kindergarten or the first or second grade? Can any of it be replicated? Why not?


While I understand your larger point here jammer, you're falling victim to the typical political scam foisted on us by politicians, for the most part. What I'm saying would make much more sense to you if YOU had to sit in/observe classes in 10 different schools: 5 elite private, 5 public. In 10 different cities. Homogeneity and similarities are surprisingly missing as you compare and contrast them all.

Having BEEN a learner in, and TAUGHT in both settings (yes, Lutheran schools can be on the 'elite' side) the number one difference isn't so 'mystical': IT'S THE PARENTS, AND THE TONES THEY/THEIR COMMUNITY ESTABLISH RE: THE SOCIAL/RELIGIOUS/CULTURAL EXPECTATION. Committed, involved parents produce a better educational milieu, and the teachers are actually secondary to that.

When I was a teacher, I made it a point to spend time each year observing in another school that might be like my own, or different. Across the board, one could predict a general reputation of success by the community involvement invested in the school, not by its tuition rate (or 'freeness').

Another factor is homogeneity. Not necessarily ethnic/racial but cultural and social demographics can be a big factor. I point to Finland, where their PUBLIC SCHOOLS lead the world in productive education, with the highest test standards. WITH LESS TIME SPENT IN SCHOOL THAN AMERICAN KIDS. Michael Moore did a documentary on that not long ago. Couldn't stomach that.

The film was intended to shame Americans, regarding such disparities in educational results. It fails to point out that Finland has a population the size of Kentucky, with even more homogeneity. For them to produce a Better Product is logistically far more practical than here, where we nationalize standard tests to compare kids from Compton and Naperville and White Plains and The Bronx. And our system is designed to include ALL, to evaluate ALL kids, and add them into the National Norms. If Finland had to round up all the Lapp natives above the arctic circle to count them in their scores, hmmm....well, think about it.

I agree, public education doesn't always match the standards some elite private schools may set, but....it's a bit contrived to be a realistic analysis. And it certainly shouldn't serve as grounds for an indictment of ALL public schools.


Good stuff but I'm not interested in public schools right now. I'm interested in elite private schools. You say you were a student and a teacher at some point in schools of that type? Okay, that's interesting to me. Where? How much were the tuitions? Who were the parents, how elite, etc?

I don't know what political scam I'm falling into. I've screwed up the specificity of a poll question and sort of bungled the focus a bit here as a result. I could have saved a lot of time by getting to the point of what can we do to make public schools better. Now I'm falling for a political scam.

Howee, much respect for your decades of experience across the board in education. I really would like to have a discussion about elite private K-12 schools. Not 'can be' elite schools. The educational and social exposure these kids get in the kinds of schools I'm talking about prepare them to be who they are and will be in life. And who they will be in life are the one percent.

I don't know if you're suggesting it doesn't matter what goes on in their schools, or that it varies too much to be of value to discuss, but I live in a different world than you do and I don't believe those things. I've existed in their midst for 30 years. I know who and what I'm talking about.

Certainly, I think we can get to a discussion of whether any of it is transferable to parts of the rest of the country and across different classes and backgrounds. But that's at this point really like a different subject. I maintain that there exists right now a machinery that perpetuates inequality in this country and the private school education that the children of the affluent receive is an integral part of what helps them to maintain and hold together the shared affluence of an entire class.

So that's what I want to talk about. You may not believe what I believe. That's fine. I don't like to pull out the 'C' card but remember I'm coming from a different place than you are. Other than Beverly Hills and Santa Monica High Schools, I ONLY see private schools on the Westside of LA. And K-8, forgetaboutit. You seem like you have a lot of valuable experience and insight to share whenever you stop focusing on whatever you think I'm doing wrong. Cool


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 4:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:



Here are some matriculation numbers from the annual report: Arrow

    Harvard University 16
    Princeton University 10
    Yale University 14
    Stanford University 11
    Cornell University 6
    Amherst College 7
    Brown University 8 (Boooo! Laughing)




This is exactly what I'm talking about. It’s a pipeline and it's just one school.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 7:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


You have to consider what goes into them. They only admit students who have the background, home support, and interest to achieve scholastically. Public schools try to educate everyone, even those who don't have educated family to help with their work, don't have access to learning material at home, or don't want to do any more than the bare minimum. It's like presenting a coach a bunch of players who have never played basketball, aren't especially athletic, and don't want to be on the team, then wondering why he can't make them play like UConn.



_________________
Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18013
Location: Queens


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 10:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Schools are much like a garden- you reap what you sow. I was fortunate enough to be in a good district, in a cohort of kids with extremely involved parents. My elementary school didn't have a PTA- it had a PA, because the parents ran that motha with an iron fist, and only worked with teachers who were willing to work with them instead of resting on their tenured laurels.

We were also a slightly unusual cohort in that a large chunk of us chose the same small high school instead of going to the zoned school, and thus the parents were able to stay together and maintain a power base.

But money talks. I don't think the parents at my elementary school could have done what they did if we weren't in a upper-middle-class district, and in one of the best schools in the district, zoned not only to the upper-middle-class portion of the neighborhood but also to the extremely tony portion of the neighborhood. Love and passion can only take you up to the register; after that, it's up to cash and credit.

And time matters. You get out what you put in; if parents aren't available to push both kids and administration, you're not going to get the best results. One of my friends from fifth grade on was a special needs student, and his mother had to fight and claw for every accommodation he needed. That was essentially her job. If she had to pull a 9-to-5 on top of that, or work multiple jobs, she wouldn't have had the time to do that, and he would have fallen behind.

The big money private schools are going to have the easiest time with both of those, because they attract people who have both the money to spend and the time to spend it. If you could pour those kinds of resources into every kid to find out how best they learn and how to get them to learn, yeah, you could give every kid the same level of education. But that involves actually paying attention to individuals and tweaking programs, instead of going one-size-fits-all, and no public administration is going to do that.



_________________
All your Rebecca are belong to the Liberty.

(now with spelling variations)
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 12:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'll just shotgun a few things.

I went to public school from K-12 in Staten Island, NY, which is a borough of New York City, but which in the 1950's was suburban and rural with many farms and forests. From grade 3 in grammar school through grade 12 in high school, I was in the same homeroom as most of my friends. That's because both schools organized homerooms by academic potential and we were all in the top academic tier homeroom. We were all sort of lower-middle to middle- middle class economically, but virtually everyone was from a two parent home. I was the first in my family born in America.

Looking at my 8th grade homeroom graduation photo of 35 kids in 1958, of the half I know the future of, we had four M.D.'s, three Ph.D's (one in physics who ended up at SLAC, the other in psychology who became a university provost and president), one J.D., three engineers, and several nurses and school teachers.

I have degrees from three private universities (Columbia, Harvard, NYU) and one public (FSU). Many, many of my classmates in the Ivy League had attended the most elite prep schools and were from money.

Among other things, I've taught three years in NYC public middle schools, on a law school faculty and on a graduate business school faculty.

In my first year as a 7th and 8th grade teacher on the lower east side of Manhattan, I taught a class in mathematics for non-English speaking students. The students were all either from Puerto Rico or Taiwan/Hong Kong. i spoke neither Spanish nor Chinese. Some of the Puerto Rican kids did not even know how to count, while most of the Chinese kids could already do 9th grade algebra. Many of the Hispanic kids were from single parent or multiple family homes. In this neighborhood, the tires on your car were often slashed. The year was a real challenge.

I naively believed that if I got a top flight education in public schools, so could my kids. What a tragic mistake. We were moving all around the country because of my job, and some of the public schools were atrocious. My daughter was in four different high schools in four years, two private and two public. My sons were in almost as many schools and had learning challenges that the public schools could not address.

Based upon my experience and my daughter's, her daughter is now in Kindergarten in a private Catholic school. Unfortunately, due to declining enrollments, money and nunneries, many Catholic schools are now out of business or operating on a shoestring, and are not as educationally potent as they were 50-100 years ago.
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 1:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
And back to the top, the rabbit hole, I contend that you could practically run a public school perfectly and you're not going to touch what's going on in these private schools or what comes out of them.


You have to consider what goes into them. They only admit students who have the background, home support, and interest to achieve scholastically. Public schools try to educate everyone, even those who don't have educated family to help with their work, don't have access to learning material at home, or don't want to do any more than the bare minimum. It's like presenting a coach a bunch of players who have never played basketball, aren't especially athletic, and don't want to be on the team, then wondering why he can't make them play like UConn.


Yeah, excellent dose of reality there and no doubt about any of it. So we can say it starts in the home, in the qualities inherent in parents of a certain level of affluence and background. But we can also just factually recognize the reality that in all things they are doing the job of replicating themselves and that starts with everything that goes into preparing their offspring to fill their shoes. And this is why I want to take the discussion away (now that I have a bit more focus and clarity) from what's different or what's going wrong in the public school system and dig deeper into what's going on in the schools these most affluent Americans send their children to. We can't change everything. We can't magically replace our own grandma with one who was the economics chair at Stanford. So I think because all of this starts with kindergarten and first graders we have to understand what makes these schools so important to the parents who (sometimes) fight to get their kids in them. I say sometimes because I don't believe it's only about a school like the one that Admiral attended. There's clearly enough of these schools to handle all of the children of affluence. So I think you focus on what you can focus on. There is no doubt concrete differences in the approaches and treatments that happen inside those schools matter and serve the purposes and demands of the parents.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9542



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Public schools get all kinds of students, but they have segregation - by ability and studiousness - to allow them to still give a good education to the good students. I don't know where they are now, but when I was in high school they stopped segregating us by ability in my junior year or senior year. At the same time they changed the curriculum, giving us more choices outside the tradition that were more "skill based". I remember sitting in a "lawnmower repair" class of about 7 guys where we didn't do a whole lot. But in a traditional class like history, the curriculum got dumbed down to the level of the poorest students. And it would have to - how else can they get them to pass the class? I think they go to non-segregation on the basis that it will pull up the poor students. But it had the reverse effect in my experience. I remember one class where the teacher seemed to implicitly make paying attention optional. You sat in the front if you wanted to, and in the back if you didn't. He didn't hold you to participation.

I can't remember exactly when - maybe early 90's - but saw a documentary on TV about a Berkeley , CA high school and they were going to "de-segregate" their classes (which was based on ability). They had interviews with a few teachers both before, and after the change. I remember one teacher who was enthusiastic before the change, who later found that it fell far short of her expectations. She said something like: "How am I supposed to teach in the same class, kids whose parents are Berkeley professors, and kids whose parents are illegal aliens and don't speak English?"


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Schools are much like a garden- you reap what you sow. I was fortunate enough to be in a good district, in a cohort of kids with extremely involved parents. My elementary school didn't have a PTA- it had a PA, because the parents ran that motha with an iron fist, and only worked with teachers who were willing to work with them instead of resting on their tenured laurels.

We were also a slightly unusual cohort in that a large chunk of us chose the same small high school instead of going to the zoned school, and thus the parents were able to stay together and maintain a power base.

But money talks. I don't think the parents at my elementary school could have done what they did if we weren't in a upper-middle-class district, and in one of the best schools in the district, zoned not only to the upper-middle-class portion of the neighborhood but also to the extremely tony portion of the neighborhood. Love and passion can only take you up to the register; after that, it's up to cash and credit.

And time matters. You get out what you put in; if parents aren't available to push both kids and administration, you're not going to get the best results. One of my friends from fifth grade on was a special needs student, and his mother had to fight and claw for every accommodation he needed. That was essentially her job. If she had to pull a 9-to-5 on top of that, or work multiple jobs, she wouldn't have had the time to do that, and he would have fallen behind.

The big money private schools are going to have the easiest time with both of those, because they attract people who have both the money to spend and the time to spend it. If you could pour those kinds of resources into every kid to find out how best they learn and how to get them to learn, yeah, you could give every kid the same level of education. But that involves actually paying attention to individuals and tweaking programs, instead of going one-size-fits-all, and no public administration is going to do that.


Slammin'. I thought you might provide some of the best insights not just because you're Queenie but because you're where you are. You would have kind of almost necessarily seen it all and it sounds like you have.

So I'm a believer that little nudges here and there in the right direction can make huge differences in people's lives decades later. I can point to small things when I was a child in an ocean of violence and negativity and ignorance that were integral in giving me a spark that I might end up where I wanted to be. So I don't think, if I were moving on to trying to fix what's wrong in American public schools, that you're going to solve our public school problems across the board by replicating private school educations. Which I'm sure all reasonable people would agree is impossible. But I think you can reach and help out millions of kids with just a nudge here and there by borrowing some things from what these schools set out to do and how they do it.

But I'm still in the angry political mode. I want to trace the elites who shape the course of our events back to their private schools roots. I would dream of creating an understanding in America of how much any of this really matters in determining future success in the modern world. I would want to see Americans with a greater understanding of who is shaping their world and why the world being shaped works so much better for those who are shaping it than it does for the rest of us.

I'd love to see the start of a process of exposing the basis of why these people are different from us and why they ultimately are going to be okay even if those on the bottom end of the economy are being devastated. And then let's find out that the policies and decisions are being made by people who went to private K-12 schools that seamlessly led them to Harvard and Yale. You can't have a class war if you don't know the enemy. And I believe these people, those affluent enough to afford $20-35K per year for a K-12 education for their kids, are among the true enemies of greater economic equality.

So yeah, I am interested in what can be learned from all of this that would be helpful in educating young people in this country. But I'm also dreaming of a big awakening that first would start with a focus on the fact that these schools exist, what goes on inside of them, who the parents are, the fact that they can be pipelines to Ivy League schools, with an explanation that sticks of what that all means, the implications for both them and for us, and on and on.

I guess I want a LOT from this thread. Wink And from those schools and from the extremely affluent families that both feed and feed off of their existence.

And I have to add that, being in California, an empire of politically liberal and progressive affluence, I wouldn't mind exposing what I might consider to be glaring widespread hypocrisy here by people who purport to be all about inclusion and lifting others up but really could be at their most basic core values more about making sure that no one ever catches up with them or their damn kids.

Anyway. I ain't askin' much.

(See, Howee. Eventually I do get to the point. Razz Even if I don't know myself exactly what that point is when I start something.)


Admiral_Needa



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 10454
Location: Tiburon, CA


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/14/18 8:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Public schools get all kinds of students, but they have segregation - by ability and studiousness - to allow them to still give a good education to the good students. I don't know where they are now, but when I was in high school they stopped segregating us by ability in my junior year or senior year. At the same time they changed the curriculum, giving us more choices outside the tradition that were more "skill based". I remember sitting in a "lawnmower repair" class of about 7 guys where we didn't do a whole lot. But in a traditional class like history, the curriculum got dumbed down to the level of the poorest students. And it would have to - how else can they get them to pass the class? I think they go to non-segregation on the basis that it will pull up the poor students. But it had the reverse effect in my experience. I remember one class where the teacher seemed to implicitly make paying attention optional. You sat in the front if you wanted to, and in the back if you didn't. He didn't hold you to participation.

I can't remember exactly when - maybe early 90's - but saw a documentary on TV about a Berkeley , CA high school and they were going to "de-segregate" their classes (which was based on ability). They had interviews with a few teachers both before, and after the change. I remember one teacher who was enthusiastic before the change, who later found that it fell far short of her expectations. She said something like: "How am I supposed to teach in the same class, kids whose parents are Berkeley professors, and kids whose parents are illegal aliens and don't speak English?"





I remember officially visiting another private high school that I got accepted to and sitting in on a Spanish II class. The first observation I made was that the room was small, and the class was large (20). Moreover, the class was so large that several students had to resort to sitting on end-tables, window-sills, backpacks, and the professor had to stand for the whole class because there weren't enough chairs. I also noticed that the students were asking a lot of questions that I already knew as an 8th grader. This was supposed to be a sophomore-level Spanish class... Shocked

Of course, since then, that school made many great improvements and Marin Catholic is now considered one of the best private high schools in California. Tuition is $21,000 per year. The number of students per grade is ~180. In fact, if you follow football, the 2016 #1 NFL Draft Pick, Jared Goff, went there. He then went on to UC Berkeley, which is frequently rated as the #1 Public University in the USA. After that, he became the starting QB of the LA Rams. Cool


I'm not aware of that Berkeley documentary you mentioned, but if you happen to remember the title, let me know. I'll add it to my movie queue. Sounds interesting. And if you're interested, there recently was a documentary made about SF University High, my high school. Perhaps it does well to put a face on these private school students and also works to keep them from being dehumanized here. It's about the 2010 Girl's Cross Country team who got national attention after one of the runners made an inspirational crawl to the finish line, and credited everything to her coach who had been diagnosed with ALS. She later went on to Colgate University, a private college ranked #12 in National Liberal Arts Colleges, and she is now an investment consultant. Idea



Quote:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/O7BW1vxL1oo?start=3" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tracy is often credited with building a running dynasty at University High — a description that’s hard to resist for the winningest high school cross country coach in California history. But despite the many honors bestowed upon him, the humble Tracy would be the last to claim the honor.

“Dealing with a coach they love who is diagnosed with a fatal disease forced the whole team to break out of their insular teenage minds and made them appreciate their own health and their own lives,” she says. “It’s given them a greater perspective on life.”


ABC News - Published on Dec 3, 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Evj2ecqDi0



And if you were watching the 2018 Olympics in Korea, Jonny Moseley, the Gold Medalist who was doing commentary for all the freestyle skiing events, went to my high school's rival, The Branson School. He lives in Tiburon as well, and he was at Marin Country Day School at the same time I was. I still see him around town at times. Nice guy. Razz



_________________
2002 WNBA Virtual GM Overall Winner
2006 WNBA Triple Threat Overall Winner
2007 NBA ESPN Fast Break Overall Winner
calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5152
Location: Carson City


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 1:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When I was 9 my parents moved, and one of their main considerations was the quality of the public school system in the community. The taxes were very high so they were to some extent paying for my education, but that was a different time, I went through the public school system and then moved on to what I believe is still the best public university in the nation.

While I have nothing against private schools and I believe there is a place for them, particularly for religious schools or college preparatory schools, I also believe we must maintain high standards at public schools and not let them devolve into schools for those who don't have a better choice.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15690
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 2:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
You seem like you have a lot of valuable experience and insight to share whenever you stop focusing on whatever you think I'm doing wrong. Cool

I'm not sure where THAT came from...."wrong" wasn't my concern: I just wanted to assist you in attaining clarity and succinctness (but I give up. Laughing )
So now, I am taking it that the "objective" of your thread is to analyze the claim that elitist educational systems are a foundational pillar to the (eventual) ruling by the exclusive upper class. Correct?



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 3:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
You seem like you have a lot of valuable experience and insight to share whenever you stop focusing on whatever you think I'm doing wrong. Cool


I'm not sure where THAT came from...."wrong" wasn't my concern:


Hmm.

Howee wrote:

Lesson #1: In organizing a lesson for productive learning, it's best to begin with the [b]statement of your objective...

For us here, you might have saved some time by just stating: "I contend that you could p... Discuss how we can prove or disprove it."


Howee wrote:


While I understand your larger point here jammer, you're falling victim to the typical political scam foisted on us by politicians


I'm sorry. All of this sounds to me like you're saying that I've a) approached something the wrong way [didn't begin with a statement of my objective] b) done something the wrong way [might have saved some time if I hadn't] or c) am thinking about something the wrong way [I'm falling for a scam]

But maybe I'm just wrong again.

Howee wrote:

So now, I am taking it that the "objective" of your thread is to analyze the claim that elitist educational systems are a foundational pillar to the (eventual) ruling by the exclusive upper class. Correct?


No... just no. Howee, I've never known two people on Rebkell's who, with no real animosity at all towards each other, seemed to have such a problem communicating. Don't take it personally, it's just a chemistry thing I suppose, but I'm done responding to you in the context of this thread.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 4:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
Perhaps it does well to put a face on these private school students and also works to keep them from being dehumanized here.


When I started this thread, I was intentionally ambiguous (at best) about where I was going with it and I say that about half way up the page somewhere. But I didn't want to ever explicitly express any class based political hostility to those here who might have attended elite private schools and, unfortunately, I think it did end up coming across that way.

Initially I didn't want people to look at something like hostility in the opening post here and decide that this thread was based on a vibe that's truly unfriendly towards people like themselves and that they're not going to share any information here to a hostile environment.

So as that intentional lack of clarity became sort of a stumbling block for some, and after I felt that there was a significant response, and, honestly, after you blew the lid off the thread by opening up about Bay Area private schools, then I started using this thread as a note-pad in jotting down my issues with the entire idea of ultra-expensive K-12 private schools and those who attend them.

So I think looking back at some of my rhetoric I probably overcorrected. I hope you don't feel like I was out to 'get' anyone here who went to private school and that you don't regret participating by providing all this information you provided. You cut to the chase in helping me make my points from a California perspective to people who don't live here.

I don't believe that on an individual basis that parents who send their kids to elite private schools are the 'enemies of greater equality' or whatever I said. I think the fact that this practice has grown to what it is, for all the reasons it has, makes the impact of the system of ultra-elite private schools and, unfortunately, many who do attend and who grow up in that system, sort of a barrier to fixing or correcting the gross inequality that is only getting worse in America.

I don't generally disparage people I don't know on an individual basis and not for being rich or sending their kids to private schools. If I had kids, I don't think there's any doubt I would elect to send them to the best private schools I could afford and get them into.

I have a problem with grotesque inequality in America. That inequality begins, on an individual basis, with the upbringing of successive generations of elites one child at a time. It reaches its zenith, at least in this country, when those kids grow up to be elites who influence the decisions our political leaders make, the information flow to the public, the functions of the economy, and how all of that impacts not only the affluent themselves but also the other 99% of Americans.

You certainly know, as you pointed out, how one elite private school leads to another and then on to an Ivy League education and you know how people of a certain economic class view what comes out of an Ivy League education. There was a New Yorker article probably a decade ago (and we might have had a thread somewhere if not here) that talked about this exact topic. People even then in the Upper East Side, etc. if they couldn't get their kids into Harvard, they maintained, and the article seemed to endorse the idea, that their kids would have a diminished future. Second tier law firms, etc. Boo hoo.

So, to be honest, for me this is all just unquestioned reality. I've been where I am long enough, surrounded by people who went to private schools, that I too can now spot the third eye on their foreheads. lol. Anyway. I apologize if some of my rhetoric sounded like an attack or if it seemed I set a trap or something. I just didn't want to close down the discussion and more than anyone else I wanted people who had gone to elite private schools to weigh in.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15690
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 11:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
No... just no. Howee, I've never known two people on Rebkell's who, with no real animosity at all towards each other, seemed to have such a problem communicating. Don't take it personally, it's just a chemistry thing I suppose, but I'm done responding to you in the context of this thread.

Well, thank you. I shall perceive that as a badge of honor, and be fine with it. Cool

Now. Is there anyone else on this thread who CAN translate for me? Shocked



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21045



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Public schools get all kinds of students, but they have segregation - by ability and studiousness - to allow them to still give a good education to the good students. I don't know where they are now, but when I was in high school they stopped segregating us by ability in my junior year or senior year. At the same time they changed the curriculum, giving us more choices outside the tradition that were more "skill based". I remember sitting in a "lawnmower repair" class of about 7 guys where we didn't do a whole lot. But in a traditional class like history, the curriculum got dumbed down to the level of the poorest students. And it would have to - how else can they get them to pass the class? I think they go to non-segregation on the basis that it will pull up the poor students. But it had the reverse effect in my experience. I remember one class where the teacher seemed to implicitly make paying attention optional. You sat in the front if you wanted to, and in the back if you didn't. He didn't hold you to participation.

I can't remember exactly when - maybe early 90's - but saw a documentary on TV about a Berkeley , CA high school and they were going to "de-segregate" their classes (which was based on ability). They had interviews with a few teachers both before, and after the change. I remember one teacher who was enthusiastic before the change, who later found that it fell far short of her expectations. She said something like: "How am I supposed to teach in the same class, kids whose parents are Berkeley professors, and kids whose parents are illegal aliens and don't speak English?"


Public schools in America have tried just about everything. I have asked for the last 25 years why we don't try somewhere to replicate as best as it can be done, some of the processes and strategies the affluent employ to educate their children. Because while American public schools are falling behind, there really are never any problems with the elites in this country, or around the world, replicating themselves, with all their deep understanding of history, economics, politics, the arts, etc. all the shared educational background that allows them to go on to become magazine editors, museum curators, etc. I'm not even focusing on the professional fields. And I think, two of the most important aspects that come out of any of this are the ease people acquire with both language and the ability to get on with each other. I'm not sure the facility with language comes from school with these kids though. I think that pretty much is established earlier from the parents and the family.

I'd be embarrassed to share my own educational experiences. But I remember being placed in both the higher tiered history and English classes while at the same time, trying to avoid all of that and electively put myself more into the vocational classes. Huge huge mistake that I finally corrected after a year.

I can't pretend to know what's wrong with public education in America or articulate it myself with the kind of grasp of terms and trends that would indicate I should be talking about it at all. But I can continue to point out that we have, in this very country, not Switzerland or Belgium, an educational system that produces elites who are on the level with those in any European aristocracy and the belief that there is much to be learned by the kind of creative learning atmospheres that would have to exist in elite private K-12 schools in order to produce the results they produce.

So I don't get the flailing away that seems to happen decade after decade in public schools. And the focus on the failures that result from it all. Can we not focus somewhat on what is working so marvelously well for these other people?

So what you don't get in this country all that much is the people standing up and saying with specificity that this or that is what we want. They're massaged and manipulated on just about every political matter in the spectrum of public discourse. But I think if they knew more about elite private schools, as I've said, they might demand some kind of different approaches to the education of their own kids. I know I've seen Frontline documentaries on public schools in both districts that are failing miserably and those that are exceeding national averages etc. And the heartbreaking stories of families trying to get their kids into those better schools and all the shit they go through to do that. So that's what we're ACTUALLY doing to people in this country. Making them scramble for educational competence and the right teachers and facilities and computers, etc. Or else their kids are going to grow up to greatly diminished futures.

But these are the stories we focus on. This is what the Frontline and other documentaries and news features report on. But the people who make those documentaries, I will contend, the network execs who green light the content, etc. they're so likely at this point to be the product themselves of private school educations. Maybe in Glenn's day these schools weren't as prolific as they have become but they've been around for a long time. But people are not going to turn a camera on themselves or the systems that enable them to be who they are.

Anyway. I think one way to start change is to shine a light on what really works and why. Create some class resentment and some demand in the public at large. I mean, just look at it from the perspective of one smart talented kid who grows up enduring the crappy school environment he or she must endure who then learns of the shining special world of the private K-12 school and the guilded path that lies ahead for those students. I mean, in 2018, this isn't simply a problem. This is a fucking cancer. It's at the root of inequality in America. Some aspects of it are unavoidable, as Queenie points out, money will always win out. But you have to have some thing that works as a correction. Instead, we just have our continuing failure and flailing away in the public schools system.

25 years ago. I remember so well. On the left here in California you had this very common cry from progressives warning that we were on the road to being India. A two-tier society. The haves and the have-nots. That was when the left was about class issues and the subjugation of the majority under the foot of an entrenched elite and not what they are now which is all about identity politics surrounding social issues that matter most now to no one MORE, incredibly, than an affluent and well-educated upper tier of American society.

I've lived and worked in Beverly Hills now for over 30 years. I can't even begin to tell you how much this place has changed in that time. The ultra wealthy were always here. But the thing that made California magical is that the class distinctions, the hard lines that are drawn back east that everyone who came here from other places knew so well, they were all but invisible here in California. If you fit in based on who you were, you fit in pretty much anywhere with anyone and you were welcome. The place was nothing at all like back east in terms of that old class snobbery.

Now this place is unrecognizable. It's like Geneva meets Dubai. And the Americans who are here are of a class and station that is like something that was rarely seen in the old days. Now Americans here, and I would surmise it is largely due to the presence of so many ultra-wealthy foreigners, seem to be free to indulge their class differences in ways that weren't really seen decades ago in LA. Things were a little more dressed down here. Laid back. Remember? Now you can look at a group of people on a street corner and say, yep, every one of those stuffed shirts came out of private schools, whether those schools were in Brussels or Pacific Palisades.

So I guess I'm wondering if there's been a proliferation of more and more high-end private schools in places like California. We know the affluent of the world are coalescing themselves and coming together in terms of their mutual self-interests and influence in multiple unofficial affluence capitals around the world, this being one of them. So if there are now many more private K-12 schools in someplace like LA or the Bay Area are they springing up to absorb the influx of the children of ultra-wealthy internationals who more and more are nesting here in California?


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/15/18 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Los Angeles has the most private K-12 schools of any city in the US. The proliferation started in the late 70's and early 80's when the city finally came up with then began enforcing a plan to desegregate public schools. The white flight from the public school system in LA surpasses every other place in the country.



_________________
Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » Area 51 All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin