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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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 Posted: 03/06/18 3:56 am ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
If I was him I would have gone with "one of the top 10 players in the world". I think that wouldn't be an unfair claim - even if it's still highly debatable - and it still sounds impressive.
(My personal take: "Arguably the best player in the world" could be said by someone about Fowles, Parker, EDD, Charles, Maya & BG without my eyebrows needing to elevate. And that still leaves out some mighty good players who I'd list in front of Liz, Like Angel, Nneka, Stewie, ...) |
Agreed. Or even just hedge it with some qualifications like, "One of the best centers in the world", still sounds hella impressive and is much more in the realm of reasonableness.
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 03/06/18 4:01 am ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.
Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world? |
Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...
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Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor). |
Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be. |
He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels. |
And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may. |
I'm willing to bet I've seen her more than you, especially live. I saw every game of hers in Rio and her playoffs in London. She can make an impact, definitely, but she needs to be able to stay on the floor in order to do it. Heck, even the Serbians and 6'2" Danielle Page figured out how to defend her. The point is not moot, and I call complete BS on Jonquel Jones in particular not being able to impact the game like her.
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 03/06/18 4:15 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
Yeah, it was made as a marketing statement and a I think he exaggerated, but I don't see it as a huge stretch and he has the unknown on his side since she hasn't played in the WNBA since 2013 when she was 21/22 (what would be a college player's rookie WNBA year) and was 16.3ppg/8.3 rpg in 25 minutes on a bad team. And she's never played in the European leagues where the WNBA elite congregates for big bucks. |
So you don't think it's a stretch to call her the best player in the world yet you provide tons of evidence that she's done absolutely nothing worthy of staking the claim. She has won a WNBL championship/MVP in 2011 and a bronze medal in the 2012 Olympics. That's it. Nothing at any other stop. What you are arguing is that she has great potential - and she does. But you'll excuse the rest of us for believing that you can't be the best player in the world if you haven't led your team to some hardware.
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Nerd2
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| Posted: 03/06/18 4:18 am ::: |
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| OK, Dallas folks, a simple test: Minnesota offers Maya Moore or Sylvia Fowles straight up for Liz Cambage. Would you take her or say "yeah, we're good here?"
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/06/18 7:59 am ::: |
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| Nerd2 wrote: |
| OK, Dallas folks, a simple test: Minnesota offers Maya Moore or Sylvia Fowles straight up for Liz Cambage. Would you take her or say "yeah, we're good here?" |
That's not a fair comparison, since Cambage has a history of not coming over during the summer
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/06/18 10:00 am ::: |
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| Nerd2 wrote: |
| OK, Dallas folks, a simple test: Minnesota offers Maya Moore or Sylvia Fowles straight up for Liz Cambage. Would you take her or say "yeah, we're good here?" |
Me personally, yeah, I'd take that bet (Sylvia). No take-backsies. |
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Nerd2
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| Posted: 03/06/18 11:38 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| OK, Dallas folks, a simple test: Minnesota offers Maya Moore or Sylvia Fowles straight up for Liz Cambage. Would you take her or say "yeah, we're good here?" |
That's not a fair comparison, since Cambage has a history of not coming over during the summer |
So in your opinion, you'd factor that in if you were building a Dallas team then?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/06/18 11:41 am ::: |
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| Nerd2 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| OK, Dallas folks, a simple test: Minnesota offers Maya Moore or Sylvia Fowles straight up for Liz Cambage. Would you take her or say "yeah, we're good here?" |
That's not a fair comparison, since Cambage has a history of not coming over during the summer |
So in your opinion, you'd factor that in if you were building a Dallas team then? |
I think you have to. Cambage just isn't reliable.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 03/06/18 12:45 pm ::: |
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| Nerd2 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.
Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world? |
Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...
|
Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor). |
Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be. |
He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels. |
And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may. |
I'm willing to bet I've seen her more than you, especially live. I saw every game of hers in Rio and her playoffs in London. She can make an impact, definitely, but she needs to be able to stay on the floor in order to do it. Heck, even the Serbians and 6'2" Danielle Page figured out how to defend her. The point is not moot, and I call complete BS on Jonquel Jones in particular not being able to impact the game like her. |
Would you really be willing to make that bet ? Just wondering , your not the only fan to watch all her games in Rio  ijs , Liz is one of the best players in the world and thats not and exxageration . Bibb said arguably the best center in the world and you guys are proving him right #Arguably , Any type of praise for liz is always met with negativity so i will let it be . Why cant people just wait til the season tips and make their observations then . Im willing to wait and let the chips fall where they may . #WFFL
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 03/06/18 1:16 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.
Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world? |
Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...
|
Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor). |
Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be. |
He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels. |
And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may. |
I'm willing to bet I've seen her more than you, especially live. I saw every game of hers in Rio and her playoffs in London. She can make an impact, definitely, but she needs to be able to stay on the floor in order to do it. Heck, even the Serbians and 6'2" Danielle Page figured out how to defend her. The point is not moot, and I call complete BS on Jonquel Jones in particular not being able to impact the game like her. |
Would you really be willing to make that bet ? Just wondering , your not the only fan to watch all her games in Rio ijs , Liz is one of the best players in the world and thats not and exxageration . Bibb said arguably the best center in the world and you guys are proving him right #Arguably , Any type of praise for liz is always met with negativity so i will let it be . Why cant people just wait til the season tips and make their observations then . Im willing to wait and let the chips fall where they may . #WFFL |
He said "best player" not "best center".
I have nothing against Cambage and think her addition to the team will be amazing for them. My "problem" (if you want to call it that, since it's more funny than anything else to me) is with ridiculous hyperbole from team officials. This is not unique to Bibb, and I like to laugh at them whenever they happen.
And using the term "arguably" as some sort of free pass to say something outlandish is a form of equivocation. In the context that Bibb used it does not mean that it will "create argument" which is the definition you are using here (and pilight did earlier, but I suspect he did so intentionally, knowing he was equivocating to have some fun). Rather the definition of "arguably" in the way Bibb used it is "a reasonable argument could be made that..."
As in the example I used before, If I said "Arguably, 2+2=5", and someone else said, "No, it's 4, stop being stupid.", I would be equivocating if I came back with, "See, I'm right, we are arguing about it right now. It was arguable."
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815
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| Posted: 03/06/18 1:17 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.
Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world? |
Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...
|
Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor). |
Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be. |
He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels. |
And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may. |
I'm willing to bet I've seen her more than you, especially live. I saw every game of hers in Rio and her playoffs in London. She can make an impact, definitely, but she needs to be able to stay on the floor in order to do it. Heck, even the Serbians and 6'2" Danielle Page figured out how to defend her. The point is not moot, and I call complete BS on Jonquel Jones in particular not being able to impact the game like her. |
Would you really be willing to make that bet ? Just wondering , your not the only fan to watch all her games in Rio ijs , Liz is one of the best players in the world and thats not and exxageration . Bibb said arguably the best center in the world and you guys are proving him right #Arguably , Any type of praise for liz is always met with negativity so i will let it be . Why cant people just wait til the season tips and make their observations then . Im willing to wait and let the chips fall where they may . #WFFL |
What I've read is people disagree with the best player in the world statement, not that she's really good.
I'd take my chances with her too, but, if the offer were there, I would not trade Jonquel Jones for her for the Sun. No way, no how.
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WNBA 09
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/06/18 1:42 pm ::: |
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| I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I'm enjoying it with my popcorn.
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 03/06/18 1:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.
Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world? |
Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...
|
Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor). |
Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be. |
He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels. |
And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may. |
I'm willing to bet I've seen her more than you, especially live. I saw every game of hers in Rio and her playoffs in London. She can make an impact, definitely, but she needs to be able to stay on the floor in order to do it. Heck, even the Serbians and 6'2" Danielle Page figured out how to defend her. The point is not moot, and I call complete BS on Jonquel Jones in particular not being able to impact the game like her. |
Would you really be willing to make that bet ? Just wondering , your not the only fan to watch all her games in Rio ijs , Liz is one of the best players in the world and thats not and exxageration . Bibb said arguably the best center in the world and you guys are proving him right #Arguably , Any type of praise for liz is always met with negativity so i will let it be . Why cant people just wait til the season tips and make their observations then . Im willing to wait and let the chips fall where they may . #WFFL |
Yeah, I am willing to make that bet. I can post an image of my tickets to back me up to both the London and Rio Olympic games. The only game Liz was unstoppable in was the one against Japan and that was basically in the 2nd half.
I am not saying she is not good but for some reason you won't accept it unless we all anoint her as the next Lisa Leslie. Her problem has never been physical ability. It's always been mental discipline and conditioning. That's what I saw this winter. If she comes in and dominates, I will be the first one to say she showed me something. Should we expect the same from you if she doesn't?
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Nerd2
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| Posted: 03/06/18 1:49 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
I'd take my chances with her too, but, if the offer were there, I would not trade Jonquel Jones for her for the Sun. No way, no how. |
Thank you, that was my point. She is still unproven in my estimation. She could come in and dominate but I doubt anyone would take a chance to trade a proven game changer for her before they see what she brings this year. She's immediately Dallas' best center option but I would take Griner, Fowles, Charles or Jones over her at this moment. We'll see if she can change that opinion.
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Shades
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 03/06/18 6:36 pm ::: |
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| Nerd2 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
MVP doesn't always go to the best player and Cambage hasn't played in the WNBL every season.
Let's put it this way - if you could get any player in the world that wasn't an American who would you pick? (Assume all players in the prime of their career and they will actually show up every year.) So who then is the best player in the rest of the world? |
Alba Torrens, Emma Meesseman, Ana Dabovic, Jonquel Jones, Sonja Petrovic...
|
Those seem like excellent selections. I had forgotten about Jones. From what I have seen I would take Jones over Cambage. But I haven't seen Liz play in a while (except for video clips of her smashing someone in the face, kicking them in knee, or throwing them to the floor). |
Jones went through the American college system. I don’t think that was what you were looking for in this inquiry if you’re comparing to Cambage. And Torrens hasn’t shown up. How useful is that? The rest on that list aren’t game changers like Cambage is likely to be. |
He and I seemed to both understand what was being looked for, Mann Kels. |
And even with that list none of them can impact a game like Liz. So point is moot. Liz is the best non american player in the world. Disagree or agree shes on my team ive watched her play for years and you will get a taste come may. |
I'm willing to bet I've seen her more than you, especially live. I saw every game of hers in Rio and her playoffs in London. She can make an impact, definitely, but she needs to be able to stay on the floor in order to do it. Heck, even the Serbians and 6'2" Danielle Page figured out how to defend her. The point is not moot, and I call complete BS on Jonquel Jones in particular not being able to impact the game like her. |
Would you really be willing to make that bet ? Just wondering , your not the only fan to watch all her games in Rio ijs , Liz is one of the best players in the world and thats not and exxageration . Bibb said arguably the best center in the world and you guys are proving him right #Arguably , Any type of praise for liz is always met with negativity so i will let it be . Why cant people just wait til the season tips and make their observations then . Im willing to wait and let the chips fall where they may . #WFFL |
Yeah, I am willing to make that bet. I can post an image of my tickets to back me up to both the London and Rio Olympic games. The only game Liz was unstoppable in was the one against Japan and that was basically in the 2nd half.
I am not saying she is not good but for some reason you won't accept it unless we all anoint her as the next Lisa Leslie. Her problem has never been physical ability. It's always been mental discipline and conditioning. That's what I saw this winter. If she comes in and dominates, I will be the first one to say she showed me something. Should we expect the same from you if she doesn't? |
What are you talking about ? really let it go , accept what ? i have not said anything about anything that your saying . Im just praising my player , and i will be her biggest critic when the season tips also . Just sick and tired of people bashing someone based off their past . Gets old , fine you dont believe she is one of the best . This is a Dallas wings fan thread , so by you coming here and trying to make us think otherwise is really just a waste of yours and our time . Liz is arguably the Worst player in Australian history , does that make you feel better now ?
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#Occasionalwnbafan
Joined: 01 Mar 2012
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| Posted: 03/06/18 7:17 pm ::: |
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| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. I also stick by my comment that she will be the best player on the floor vs a few teams, including Atlanta, Connecticut, Seattle, and maybe even LA. |
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Nerd2
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 03/06/18 7:35 pm ::: |
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| #Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. |
The thing is though, she won't be able to stop them either.
Liz can be a beast when she gets going, but she is prone to being exploited at the other end too. She's far from nimble as a defender, and she can't resist shot block attempts. I expect both of those factors to regularly land her in hot water against the quicker, more skilled, and smarter opponents she will face in the WNBA.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/06/18 7:40 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
| #Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. |
The thing is though, she won't be able to stop them either.
Liz can be a beast when she gets going, but she is prone to being exploited at the other end too. She's far from nimble as a defender, and she can't resist shot block attempts. I expect both of those factors to regularly land her in hot water against the quicker, more skilled, and smarter opponents she will face in the WNBA. |
The most interesting part of the season might be the competition between Angel, Taurasi and Liz for the most Technicals/Flagrants in the season.
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 03/06/18 7:47 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
| #Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. |
The thing is though, she won't be able to stop them either.
Liz can be a beast when she gets going, but she is prone to being exploited at the other end too. She's far from nimble as a defender, and she can't resist shot block attempts. I expect both of those factors to regularly land her in hot water against the quicker, more skilled, and smarter opponents she will face in the WNBA. |
When I saw her play in the WNBA in 2013 she looked great. She hasn't really been in that condition since she hurt herself in 2014. So much of what I saw in the last year or two seemed to be her being too slow to get to where she needed to be and fouling as a result. If she is using this time off to get in great condition, she can compete with the absolute best. If not, she is going to get in foul trouble quickly.
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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| Posted: 03/06/18 7:48 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| #Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. |
The thing is though, she won't be able to stop them either.
Liz can be a beast when she gets going, but she is prone to being exploited at the other end too. She's far from nimble as a defender, and she can't resist shot block attempts. I expect both of those factors to regularly land her in hot water against the quicker, more skilled, and smarter opponents she will face in the WNBA. |
The most interesting part of the season might be the competition between Angel, Taurasi and Liz for the most Technicals/Flagrants in the season. |
Still Dee's crown. Especially now that she'll be a sleepless parent.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12528
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 03/06/18 11:19 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| #Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. |
The thing is though, she won't be able to stop them either.
Liz can be a beast when she gets going, but she is prone to being exploited at the other end too. She's far from nimble as a defender, and she can't resist shot block attempts. I expect both of those factors to regularly land her in hot water against the quicker, more skilled, and smarter opponents she will face in the WNBA. |
When I saw her play in the WNBA in 2013 she looked great. She hasn't really been in that condition since she hurt herself in 2014. So much of what I saw in the last year or two seemed to be her being too slow to get to where she needed to be and fouling as a result. If she is using this time off to get in great condition, she can compete with the absolute best. If not, she is going to get in foul trouble quickly. |
Thanks nerd ill look for you once the season begins Liz is the best player period in my opinion aand you cant change that sorry its MY opinion.The same for Bibb, Im so excited this shall be fun.
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3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 7659
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| Posted: 03/07/18 1:59 am ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Nerd2 wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| #Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
| Liz will have her chance to prove it on the floor this year, outside of Charles, BG and big Sly I don't think other teams will have an answer for her, I can't see Jones or Stewart will be able to stop her. |
The thing is though, she won't be able to stop them either.
Liz can be a beast when she gets going, but she is prone to being exploited at the other end too. She's far from nimble as a defender, and she can't resist shot block attempts. I expect both of those factors to regularly land her in hot water against the quicker, more skilled, and smarter opponents she will face in the WNBA. |
When I saw her play in the WNBA in 2013 she looked great. She hasn't really been in that condition since she hurt herself in 2014. So much of what I saw in the last year or two seemed to be her being too slow to get to where she needed to be and fouling as a result. If she is using this time off to get in great condition, she can compete with the absolute best. If not, she is going to get in foul trouble quickly. |
Thanks nerd ill look for you once the season begins Liz is the best player period in my opinion aand you cant change that sorry its MY opinion.The same for Bibb, Im so excited this shall be fun. |
Please look for me here and not on L chat.
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