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| Sheryl Swoopes or Maya Moore? |
| Sheryl Swoopes |
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56% |
[ 28 ] |
| Maya Moore |
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44% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 50 |
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adamj95
Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 2302
Location: East Grand Forks, MN
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 Posted: 03/03/18 9:37 am ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Ok, Fowles was better than Maya in 2017. What about the previous 3 titles? Specifically the 2 she won without Fowles? Swoopes won 0 after Cooper retired. None of the team based arguments go in Swoopes' favor. |
Hmmm,I believe both titles that Syl won as a Lynx, she was MVP of the finals. And kind of to the extent that it was beyond question. If we remove Syl, the finals MVP, do the lynx win 2 more titles? After cooper left then Swoopes played as part of the big 2 + arcain. When has maya not been comfortably positioned around 3 other stars, or more? |
But then again, if Maya doesn’t take over game 3 in 2015, no title for the Lynx.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/03/18 9:52 am ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| After cooper left then Swoopes played as part of the big 2 + arcain |
Note that The Comets stopped winning championships at this point
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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| Posted: 03/03/18 9:58 am ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Ok, Fowles was better than Maya in 2017. What about the previous 3 titles? Specifically the 2 she won without Fowles? Swoopes won 0 after Cooper retired. None of the team based arguments go in Swoopes' favor. |
Hmmm,I believe both titles that Syl won as a Lynx, she was MVP of the finals. And kind of to the extent that it was beyond question. If we remove Syl, the finals MVP, do the lynx win 2 more titles? After cooper left then Swoopes played as part of the big 2 + arcain. When has maya not been comfortably positioned around 3 other stars, or more? |
Cooper won the FMVP for all 4 of the Comets titles. Point to Maya.
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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 520
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| Posted: 03/03/18 11:24 am ::: |
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| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Ok, Fowles was better than Maya in 2017. What about the previous 3 titles? Specifically the 2 she won without Fowles? Swoopes won 0 after Cooper retired. None of the team based arguments go in Swoopes' favor. |
Hmmm,I believe both titles that Syl won as a Lynx, she was MVP of the finals. And kind of to the extent that it was beyond question. If we remove Syl, the finals MVP, do the lynx win 2 more titles? After cooper left then Swoopes played as part of the big 2 + arcain. When has maya not been comfortably positioned around 3 other stars, or more? |
Cooper won the FMVP for all 4 of the Comets titles. Point to Maya. |
Yes, it is a close comparison. And I believe Cooper was the best player on that team. I still think Swoopes is better. Maybe it’s because Moore has been surrounded by such support her whole career, but I don’t sense her ability to do it on her own. It would be interesting to see Maya play once her current team moves on. Will she be Able to establish herself Dominance without players to set her up, take some of the defensive pressure off her or be the leader of a team?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/03/18 12:37 pm ::: |
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| A very tough call ... Swoopes was a much better defender but also a difficult teammate. I would take Moore, but by only the slimmest of margins.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 03/03/18 12:47 pm ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Ok, Fowles was better than Maya in 2017. What about the previous 3 titles? Specifically the 2 she won without Fowles? Swoopes won 0 after Cooper retired. None of the team based arguments go in Swoopes' favor. |
Hmmm,I believe both titles that Syl won as a Lynx, she was MVP of the finals. And kind of to the extent that it was beyond question. If we remove Syl, the finals MVP, do the lynx win 2 more titles? After cooper left then Swoopes played as part of the big 2 + arcain. When has maya not been comfortably positioned around 3 other stars, or more? |
Cooper won the FMVP for all 4 of the Comets titles. Point to Maya. |
Yes, it is a close comparison. And I believe Cooper was the best player on that team. I still think Swoopes is better. Maybe it’s because Moore has been surrounded by such support her whole career, but I don’t sense her ability to do it on her own. It would be interesting to see Maya play once her current team moves on. Will she be Able to establish herself Dominance without players to set her up, take some of the defensive pressure off her or be the leader of a team? |
While I understand your point and it has some validity, I disagree that "not being able to do it on her own" matters. Why? Because no player can do it on their own. No one player in the modern game of professional American basketball (NBA or WNBA) can single-handedly win a team a championship. Even the greatest stars need a supporting cast, and no matter how good you are if no one else on the team is a threat and team sell out against you, you can and will be shut down more often than not.
But all this feeds my original point, which I think has gotten lost in the noise. The poll question was not asking which player is better, it was asking who to build a franchise around. IMO, these are not the same thing. The reason I would want Moore is that she is the rare Superstar with little to no ego. She is a player that will get along with whatever other personalities I bring in, and as I noted, if I want to win I will need to bring in other stars/superstars. Also, she is a type of player that will do whatever we need to win games, even if that means taking a backseat to another player (as she demonstrated last year when the Lynx retooled their offense to feature Fowles as Reeve felt that was the best way to exploit mismatches against other teams).
And you get all this with a player who is one of the best players in WNBA history? That is who I would want to cornerstone my franchise as I build.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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| Posted: 03/03/18 1:06 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
While I understand your point and it has some validity, I disagree that "not being able to do it on her own" matters. Why? Because no player can do it on their own. No one player in the modern game of professional American basketball (NBA or WNBA) can single-handedly win a team a championship. Even the greatest stars need a supporting cast, and no matter how good you are if no one else on the team is a threat and team sell out against you, you can and will be shut down more often than not.
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Especially since people itt love to point at Augustus and Fowles, who have played exactly 0 playoff games as the best player on the Lynx/Sky respectively.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 22474
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| Posted: 03/03/18 2:27 pm ::: |
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| Feel like this poll is between younger members who never saw Swoopes play and are automatically voting for Moore.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
Posts: 1560
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 03/03/18 2:34 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Feel like this poll is between younger members who never saw Swoopes play and are automatically voting for Moore. |
Counterpoint: active players consistently get underrated in all-time discussions, in every sport.
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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 520
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| Posted: 03/03/18 2:38 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| Ok, Fowles was better than Maya in 2017. What about the previous 3 titles? Specifically the 2 she won without Fowles? Swoopes won 0 after Cooper retired. None of the team based arguments go in Swoopes' favor. |
Hmmm,I believe both titles that Syl won as a Lynx, she was MVP of the finals. And kind of to the extent that it was beyond question. If we remove Syl, the finals MVP, do the lynx win 2 more titles? After cooper left then Swoopes played as part of the big 2 + arcain. When has maya not been comfortably positioned around 3 other stars, or more? |
Cooper won the FMVP for all 4 of the Comets titles. Point to Maya. |
Yes, it is a close comparison. And I believe Cooper was the best player on that team. I still think Swoopes is better. Maybe it’s because Moore has been surrounded by such support her whole career, but I don’t sense her ability to do it on her own. It would be interesting to see Maya play once her current team moves on. Will she be Able to establish herself Dominance without players to set her up, take some of the defensive pressure off her or be the leader of a team? |
While I understand your point and it has some validity, I disagree that "not being able to do it on her own" matters. Why? Because no player can do it on their own. No one player in the modern game of professional American basketball (NBA or WNBA) can single-handedly win a team a championship. Even the greatest stars need a supporting cast, and no matter how good you are if no one else on the team is a threat and team sell out against you, you can and will be shut down more often than not.
But all this feeds my original point, which I think has gotten lost in the noise. The poll question was not asking which player is better, it was asking who to build a franchise around. IMO, these are not the same thing. The reason I would want Moore is that she is the rare Superstar with little to no ego. She is a player that will get along with whatever other personalities I bring in, and as I noted, if I want to win I will need to bring in other stars/superstars. Also, she is a type of player that will do whatever we need to win games, even if that means taking a backseat to another player (as she demonstrated last year when the Lynx retooled their offense to feature Fowles as Reeve felt that was the best way to exploit mismatches against other teams).
And you get all this with a player who is one of the best players in WNBA history? That is who I would want to cornerstone my franchise as I build. |
Hmmm, but Maya came to the Lynx with Brunson, Whalen and Mone already in place. If you’re building a team around her, you’re not gonna get to start with all those players. You need the centerpiece of a team. During those lean years to start, especially in today’s climate when players wanna bail, we don’t know that Maya can shoulder that burden. Could she? I am not convinced.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/03/18 3:16 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Feel like this poll is between younger members who never saw Swoopes play and are automatically voting for Moore. |
Maybe in general, but I'm an old guy, and I picked Moore.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 03/04/18 10:39 am ::: |
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| I saw both. I'd also pick Moore. Swoopes had the defensive edge, but it's hard to minimize the fact that Moore is on what is always a top 1, 2 or 3 defensive team statistically. Moore is also a more versatile offensive player than Swoopes (though Swoopes was still great) and a better rebounder.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 03/04/18 11:36 am ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Feel like this poll is between younger members who never saw Swoopes play and are automatically voting for Moore. |
+1 and Yet SS22 has doubled her lead today. 22-16
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/04/18 11:55 am ::: |
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| Also of note, we're comparing the entirety of Swoopes career with maybe half of Moore's. Maya is 28, when Sheryl was that age she still hadn't won her first MVP award.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 03/04/18 2:37 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Also of note, we're comparing the entirety of Swoopes career with maybe half of Moore's. Maya is 28, when Sheryl was that age she still hadn't won her first MVP award. |
In pointing this out, it's important to acknowledge that, when Swoopes was the age that Moore was when she was named MVP, the WNBA did not exist, so there's no counterfactual for whether or not she could have won.
[tangent] I have long believed that Moore is overrated, and I stand by that. I hasten to point out, however, that believing that a player is overrated does not require one to believe that a player is not good; it doesn't even require one to believe that a player is not great, merely to believe that the player is not as good as the consensus appears to believe. As was the case with Taurasi, for me, personally, to stipulate Moore's greatness, I'm going to have to see her play at least one season in her professional career where her team isn't loaded. [/tangent]
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/04/18 2:45 pm ::: |
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| You may not have to wait long for that. In fact, it could happen as early as this season if Father Time decides he's given Brunson, Whalen and Augustus a pass long enough. A team with Moore and Fowles is kind of like a revolver with only 2 live rounds - not fully loaded but still very dangerous.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/18 2:57 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| You may not have to wait long for that. In fact, it could happen as early as this season if Father Time decides he's given Brunson, Whalen and Augustus a pass long enough. A team with Moore and Fowles is kind of like a revolver with only 2 live rounds - not fully loaded but still very dangerous. |
The depth of talent still helps cover that up, though. There were times last season where Whalen looked old, but when you're surrounded by all-time talent that isn't nearly as glaring or meaningful. I agree that the parallel universe where Moore was drafted by a genuinely shitty team with limited talent - the sort that usually gets the #1 pick - would be fascinating.
As for the original question, I just don't think I saw enough of Swoopes to offer an educated opinion. |
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barryi22
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/18 10:28 pm ::: |
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| I'd pick Moore. I think Swoopes was a better player in her prime, but I'd build a franchise around Moore. Great teammate, minimal ego, hard worker and she's been ridiculously successful at every level. Swoopes won 0 titles without Cooper, and Cooper was the driving force behind those 4 titles. Moore has had outstanding team success when she's been the go to player and when she's played second fiddle to another star.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 03/04/18 10:56 pm ::: |
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| barryi22 wrote: |
| I'd pick Moore. I think Swoopes was a better player in her prime, but I'd build a franchise around Moore. Great teammate, minimal ego, hard worker and she's been ridiculously successful at every level. Swoopes won 0 titles without Cooper, and Cooper was the driving force behind those 4 titles. Moore has had outstanding team success when she's been the go to player and when she's played second fiddle to another star. |
Just a slight reminder of how The dynasty was almost of not in 1998 if it were not for swoopes game 2 heroics against PhX to save the series when it easily could have been a 2-0 mercury sweep that year.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 03/05/18 10:47 am ::: |
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[quote="Silky Johnson"]
| pilight wrote: |
| Also of note, we're comparing the entirety of Swoopes career with maybe half of Moore's. Maya is 28, when Sheryl was that age she still hadn't won her first MVP award. |
In pointing this out, it's important to acknowledge that, when Swoopes was the age that Moore was when she was named MVP, the WNBA did not exist, so there's no counterfactual for whether or not she could have won.
[tangent] I have long believed that Moore is overrated, and I stand by that. I hasten to point out, however, that believing that a player is overrated does not require one to believe that a player is not good; it doesn't even require one to believe that a player is not great, merely to believe that the player is not as good as the consensus appears to believe. As was the case with Taurasi, for me, personally, to stipulate Moore's greatness, I'm going to have to see her play at least one season in her professional career where her team isn't loaded. [/tangent][/quot
 You either haven't watched/followed much women's basketball or are in serious need of glasses.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 03/05/18 11:08 am ::: |
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| Sheryl for defense, but Maya for just about all other facets of the game. Maya has a combination of "wow" basketball athleticism, indefatigable drive and big-playism that I've only seen elsewhere in Catchings, who was not as good an outside shooter as Maya, however. |
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 03/05/18 2:10 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
| :shock: You either haven't watched/followed much women's basketball or are in serious need of glasses. |
Nope, more likely you don't know what 'overrated' means. And also, there's different degrees of overrated; you're reacting like me saying that she's overrated is semantically equivalent to me saying that she's no better than Laurie Koehn, or somebody.
The math is simple: if you think she's the GOAT ("Royal" you, not saying that you, @RavenDog, do specifically), and I think she isn't, then that means I think that you have overrated her. Based on what appears to be the consensus on this board, it would seem as though many WNBA fans consider Maya Moore to either be the GOAT women's basketball player, or in the Top 3, all-time. I do not have Moore in my Top 3 all-time, therefore I think she is overrated. Hell, I could have her at #4, and that would still make Top 3 overrated.
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 03/05/18 4:39 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| RavenDog wrote: |
| You either haven't watched/followed much women's basketball or are in serious need of glasses. |
Nope, more likely you don't know what 'overrated' means. And also, there's different degrees of overrated; you're reacting like me saying that she's overrated is semantically equivalent to me saying that she's no better than Laurie Koehn, or somebody.
The math is simple: if you think she's the GOAT ("Royal" you, not saying that you, @RavenDog, do specifically), and I think she isn't, then that means I think that you have overrated her. Based on what appears to be the consensus on this board, it would seem as though many WNBA fans consider Maya Moore to either be the GOAT women's basketball player, or in the Top 3, all-time. I do not have Moore in my Top 3 all-time, therefore I think she is overrated. Hell, I could have her at #4, and that would still make Top 3 overrated. |
Bingooooo 
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 03/05/18 4:53 pm ::: |
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| I always thought of "overrated" as being a more disparaging remark than merely just a little bit short of what most other think. Not saying it means Laurie Koehn bad, but certainly not even in the conversation for best ever.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 03/05/18 4:59 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| RavenDog wrote: |
| You either haven't watched/followed much women's basketball or are in serious need of glasses. |
Nope, more likely you don't know what 'overrated' means. And also, there's different degrees of overrated; you're reacting like me saying that she's overrated is semantically equivalent to me saying that she's no better than Laurie Koehn, or somebody.
The math is simple: if you think she's the GOAT ("Royal" you, not saying that you, @RavenDog, do specifically), and I think she isn't, then that means I think that you have overrated her. Based on what appears to be the consensus on this board, it would seem as though many WNBA fans consider Maya Moore to either be the GOAT women's basketball player, or in the Top 3, all-time. I do not have Moore in my Top 3 all-time, therefore I think she is overrated. Hell, I could have her at #4, and that would still make Top 3 overrated. |
While semantically true, if someone you feel is a top 4 player is typically considered a top 3 player by most others you will only confuse people by arguing that player is "overrated". This is because that is not how the term is typically understood in these sorts of debates. When someone says a player is overrated usually it is by matter of degree (eg: good versus very good, very good versus one of the best ever". Or better yet, by matter of tier. If people have that player as a tier 1 player, and you have them as a tier 2, the it would be common to say you find them "overrated".
But when the difference in something so subjective by nature is only 1 or two spots arguing "overrated" doesn't make much sense, since that sort of difference would be well within the "margin of error", if you will.
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