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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 1:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
root_thing wrote:
All I know is that the Yankees traded for Russell Wilson this week, which means they got a starting quarterback before the Jets did.


Does this mean that you don't view Christian Hackenberg as the answer to the Jets' endless quarterback problem? Smile


Since he's been drafted, you, me and every member of Rebkell have had as many NFL snaps as Christian Hackenberg.



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 1:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
root_thing wrote:
All I know is that the Yankees traded for Russell Wilson this week, which means they got a starting quarterback before the Jets did.


Does this mean that you don't view Christian Hackenberg as the answer to the Jets' endless quarterback problem? Smile


Since he's been drafted, you, me and every member of Rebkell have had as many NFL snaps as Christian Hackenberg.


But you have looked much better at QB in your zero NFL snaps than he has!



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 4:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Regarding any roster changes there is hope for:

-Improvement from young players within
-A return of Boyd
-A change in offensive structure to something more perimeter-friendly

Boyd's injury is a big deal for a speed player so in no way am I thinking she will return 100% or assuming anything. But a return to some degree of contribution and impact is at least a possibility. Stokes was awful in about half of last year's games, including rebounding and defense. A return to form in at least the stuff she excels at would be an improvement. Zahui is a possibility for improvement as is Nayo.

I vehemently believe that the Rodgers/Prince combo needs to be broken up. Having two reasonably ok scorers share a position is not the best bang for your buck. What I personally want is to keep the #10 pick and draft Nurse. She can shoot the 3, she's got a workable floor game and she has SF size. She can play the 2 or the 3 and she will contribute immediately. Trade Rodgers for whatever you can get. The luxury the Liberty have is they at least have bodies at every spot. They have 5 workable post players. They have at least 2 functional people at the point, 3 if Boyd turns out to be healthy and able to contribute. Adding Nurse and subtracting Sugar leaves you with Prince, Z, Nurse and Allen at the wing positions. Additionally, maybe if you add Nurse's floor game to that of Z's maybe you can get away with Piph at the point a little more often. One of the reasons it didn't work last year was because Sugar's floor game was also pretty deficient.

In turn, Rodgers to LA for the 11th pick makes considerable sense for both teams. LA could really use her speed, explosiveness and shooting ability off the bench...an area they were weak in last year. She'd also benefit from the standpoint that several LA players already have a strong floor game (Gray, Sims, Parker, Nneka, Beard).

Neither Piph nor Sugar really got into a rhythm last year. I think sharing minutes would make this year more of the same. Having Nurse on the wing would give the perimeter part of the team considerably more versatility than having a "2-guard only" in Rodgers who doesn't pass, handle or create particularly well.

Katie Smith also will, in my opinion, run a somewhat different offense from Laimbeer. It might help open things up for some of the younger players to score on the perimeter.


key player this year will be Boyd, im really curious to see how she comes back from injury. i felt just like everyone else she was about to breakout. i think she will be rusty in the begining but im expecting a solid year

i love Nurse as well but i get this feeling the Sun will draft her.

my order i want to happen at 10

Nared: i know she's struggling, but i still believe in her Potential/ability and i hope Katie does as well. i've seen too many games she is good. trust me. she has long size, and the speed fits good at the 3 off the bench. how much you wanna bet she will outplay R.Allen in camp and get more minutes?

Vivians: what concerns me is her defense, sometimes when i watch she just jogs down the court alot, that annoys me. but she a deadly shooter she can score, and that's what the Libs need, more offense.

L.Brown: i dont think she will drop but if she did, bounce on it. great shooter she can play the 1 and 2 and then you have the chance to make moves by trading either Rodgers or Prince.

Russell: i agree with everything Root_thing says.


toad455



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 4:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

At #10 I'd prefer Billings or even Vivians to get a legit SF. I'm still holding out hope we get a post FA.

PG: Boyd/L. Allen
SG: Prince/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Zellous/draft pick
PF: Charles/Raincock/FA
C: Vaughn/Stokes
Gone: R. Allen/Zahui B.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Charles urges fans to come to Westchester despite the travel difficulty.

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/22399987/tina-charles-katie-smith-urge-fans-follow-new-york-liberty-white-plains



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 5:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Charles urges fans to come to Westchester despite the travel difficulty.

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/22399987/tina-charles-katie-smith-urge-fans-follow-new-york-liberty-white-plains


Sounds like there's no worries about her returning to the Liberty.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Charles urges fans to come to Westchester despite the travel difficulty.

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/22399987/tina-charles-katie-smith-urge-fans-follow-new-york-liberty-white-plains


I've seen her dad on the subway platform after games, so I wonder if she's heard about the travel issues from him.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 6:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
When I had courtside season tickets to the Monarchs, I drove 105 miles each way from SF to SAC for 9 years. Idea



If all I had to do was get on a train instead of driving a Mercedes SUV that gets 8 miles per gallon through 3 rush hour traffic bottlenecks (SF, Oakland, Sac), I'd consider it a win. Sacramento wasn't Manhattan either, but we always found fun things to do there. I'm sure there are enjoyable places to spend time in Westchester also.. Idea


I’ll make most of the trips but this is not a matter of just getting on one train. It’s for just about everyone a bus to a train or multiple connecting trains. Involving subways with oftentimes lengthy delays that make arrival at a train to White Plains unpredictable. To go from MSG to a second-rate arena.

I’m thankful for now that we have a team. I just hope there’s a future beyond 2018. But this is going to be a hard commute for many, in a city with numerous people who don’t drive.



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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 02/11/18 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Regarding any roster changes there is hope for:

-Improvement from young players within
-A return of Boyd
-A change in offensive structure to something more perimeter-friendly

Boyd's injury is a big deal for a speed player so in no way am I thinking she will return 100% or assuming anything. But a return to some degree of contribution and impact is at least a possibility. Stokes was awful in about half of last year's games, including rebounding and defense. A return to form in at least the stuff she excels at would be an improvement. Zahui is a possibility for improvement as is Nayo.

I vehemently believe that the Rodgers/Prince combo needs to be broken up. Having two reasonably ok scorers share a position is not the best bang for your buck. What I personally want is to keep the #10 pick and draft Nurse. She can shoot the 3, she's got a workable floor game and she has SF size. She can play the 2 or the 3 and she will contribute immediately. Trade Rodgers for whatever you can get. The luxury the Liberty have is they at least have bodies at every spot. They have 5 workable post players. They have at least 2 functional people at the point, 3 if Boyd turns out to be healthy and able to contribute. Adding Nurse and subtracting Sugar leaves you with Prince, Z, Nurse and Allen at the wing positions. Additionally, maybe if you add Nurse's floor game to that of Z's maybe you can get away with Piph at the point a little more often. One of the reasons it didn't work last year was because Sugar's floor game was also pretty deficient.

In turn, Rodgers to LA for the 11th pick makes considerable sense for both teams. LA could really use her speed, explosiveness and shooting ability off the bench...an area they were weak in last year. She'd also benefit from the standpoint that several LA players already have a strong floor game (Gray, Sims, Parker, Nneka, Beard).

Neither Piph nor Sugar really got into a rhythm last year. I think sharing minutes would make this year more of the same. Having Nurse on the wing would give the perimeter part of the team considerably more versatility than having a "2-guard only" in Rodgers who doesn't pass, handle or create particularly well.

Katie Smith also will, in my opinion, run a somewhat different offense from Laimbeer. It might help open things up for some of the younger players to score on the perimeter.


key player this year will be Boyd, im really curious to see how she comes back from injury. i felt just like everyone else she was about to breakout. i think she will be rusty in the begining but im expecting a solid year

i love Nurse as well but i get this feeling the Sun will draft her.

my order i want to happen at 10

Nared: i know she's struggling, but i still believe in her Potential/ability and i hope Katie does as well. i've seen too many games she is good. trust me. she has long size, and the speed fits good at the 3 off the bench. how much you wanna bet she will outplay R.Allen in camp and get more minutes?

Vivians: what concerns me is her defense, sometimes when i watch she just jogs down the court alot, that annoys me. but she a deadly shooter she can score, and that's what the Libs need, more offense.

L.Brown: i dont think she will drop but if she did, bounce on it. great shooter she can play the 1 and 2 and then you have the chance to make moves by trading either Rodgers or Prince.

Russell: i agree with everything Root_thing says.


I haven’t watched Nared much so can’t comment but I agree elsewhere. I think Nurse is better than Vivians. I do like that Vivians appears better able to create her own shot than what I saw last year.

I love Brown. She can penetrate and shoot with range. She’s going to be a contributor in the WNBA immediately because she can score all over the floor. She is kind of slightly built and a bit too combo-ish for a PG but those are things that can be improved. The skills she has, along with the moxie, you can’t teach.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 6:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Getting back to the Deshields discussion earlier. Another way a player with her skills can help is in one and dones. She gives you length, speed and an unparalleled ability to create her own shot. I recognize you don’t always know where her shot is going, but she’s proven to be a big-game player. And while Toliver was merrily going off last year as we struggled to get perimeter looks, maybe a DD caliber player changes that.

It’s not a guarantee or whatever. But I would’ve loved to have had 6’1” and the most athletic player on the floor in that situation.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 6:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I’ll make most of the trips but this is not a matter of just getting on one train. It’s for just about everyone a bus to a train or multiple connecting trains. Involving subways with oftentimes lengthy delays that make arrival at a train to White Plains unpredictable. To go from MSG to a second-rate arena.

I’m thankful for now that we have a team. I just hope there’s a future beyond 2018. But this is going to be a hard commute for many, in a city with numerous people who don’t drive.


Right on the mark.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 7:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Charles urges fans to come to Westchester despite the travel difficulty.

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/22399987/tina-charles-katie-smith-urge-fans-follow-new-york-liberty-white-plains


It’s the second time I’ve heard Katie Smith express concern about the fans. It’s not something you typically hear from coaches. I appreciate it a bunch.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 7:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I would’ve loved to have had 6’1” and the most athletic player on the floor in that situation.


Too bad the Lib didn't keep Toni Young...



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 7:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The article posted above by toad mentions that Katie Smith is in the process of finalizing her coaching staff. It'll be interesting to see what happens with that.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 7:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I would’ve loved to have had 6’1” and the most athletic player on the floor in that situation.


Too bad the Lib didn't keep Toni Young...


I should have said 6’1”, athletic and better basketball skill.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/11/18 11:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm still feeling very similar about the draft as I have all season.

My first preference move up for Deshields.

If we stay at #10 the four players I've had my eye on from the beginning are Nared, Nurse, Canada and Billings.

My gut says Canada and Nurse are gone by #10 (and that Canada might be a little redundant in terms of what we already have but I still really like her and would take her, and might even start her from day 1 at PG, but we probably have greater needs.)

So Nared is still my realistic 1st choice, with Billings as my second choice. I think Nared has lost some shine this season because she is trying to do too much. I liked her game more last year playing as the number two option behind Deshields which is more of the kind of role she we have at the next level. I also think Nared can play both as a big 3 or a skilled/stretch 4 allowing for more flexible line ups.

I'd rather have more of a scorer, but Billings will add some physicality, speed, shot blocking and rebounding, as an athletic post, and I think the Liberty could use a little more of that.

Trying to keep my eye on Vivians, S. Thomas and Scaife, but they haven't leap-froged my choices above. Though Vivians may have leap-froged our draft position.


LibFan25



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PostPosted: 02/12/18 7:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Regarding any roster changes there is hope for:

-Improvement from young players within
-A return of Boyd
-A change in offensive structure to something more perimeter-friendly

Boyd's injury is a big deal for a speed player so in no way am I thinking she will return 100% or assuming anything. But a return to some degree of contribution and impact is at least a possibility. Stokes was awful in about half of last year's games, including rebounding and defense. A return to form in at least the stuff she excels at would be an improvement. Zahui is a possibility for improvement as is Nayo.

I vehemently believe that the Rodgers/Prince combo needs to be broken up. Having two reasonably ok scorers share a position is not the best bang for your buck. What I personally want is to keep the #10 pick and draft Nurse. She can shoot the 3, she's got a workable floor game and she has SF size. She can play the 2 or the 3 and she will contribute immediately. Trade Rodgers for whatever you can get. The luxury the Liberty have is they at least have bodies at every spot. They have 5 workable post players. They have at least 2 functional people at the point, 3 if Boyd turns out to be healthy and able to contribute. Adding Nurse and subtracting Sugar leaves you with Prince, Z, Nurse and Allen at the wing positions. Additionally, maybe if you add Nurse's floor game to that of Z's maybe you can get away with Piph at the point a little more often. One of the reasons it didn't work last year was because Sugar's floor game was also pretty deficient.

In turn, Rodgers to LA for the 11th pick makes considerable sense for both teams. LA could really use her speed, explosiveness and shooting ability off the bench...an area they were weak in last year. She'd also benefit from the standpoint that several LA players already have a strong floor game (Gray, Sims, Parker, Nneka, Beard).

Neither Piph nor Sugar really got into a rhythm last year. I think sharing minutes would make this year more of the same. Having Nurse on the wing would give the perimeter part of the team considerably more versatility than having a "2-guard only" in Rodgers who doesn't pass, handle or create particularly well.

Katie Smith also will, in my opinion, run a somewhat different offense from Laimbeer. It might help open things up for some of the younger players to score on the perimeter.


key player this year will be Boyd, im really curious to see how she comes back from injury. i felt just like everyone else she was about to breakout. i think she will be rusty in the begining but im expecting a solid year

i love Nurse as well but i get this feeling the Sun will draft her.

my order i want to happen at 10

Nared: i know she's struggling, but i still believe in her Potential/ability and i hope Katie does as well. i've seen too many games she is good. trust me. she has long size, and the speed fits good at the 3 off the bench. how much you wanna bet she will outplay R.Allen in camp and get more minutes?

Vivians: what concerns me is her defense, sometimes when i watch she just jogs down the court alot, that annoys me. but she a deadly shooter she can score, and that's what the Libs need, more offense.

L.Brown: i dont think she will drop but if she did, bounce on it. great shooter she can play the 1 and 2 and then you have the chance to make moves by trading either Rodgers or Prince.

Russell: i agree with everything Root_thing says.


I haven’t watched Nared much so can’t comment but I agree elsewhere. I think Nurse is better than Vivians. I do like that Vivians appears better able to create her own shot than what I saw last year.

I love Brown. She can penetrate and shoot with range. She’s going to be a contributor in the WNBA immediately because she can score all over the floor. She is kind of slightly built and a bit too combo-ish for a PG but those are things that can be improved. The skills she has, along with the moxie, you can’t teach.



Yeah the safe pick if available would be Nurse, the highest ceiling if available would be Vivians. Nared is my homerun pick. I just believe in her lol Every pick is a gamble but I'm excited again lol Im happy this is kinda over, still not outta the storm yet but At least we will see our Libs this year.


LibFan25



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Location: Yonkers, NY


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PostPosted: 02/12/18 8:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I'm still feeling very similar about the draft as I have all season.

My first preference move up for Deshields.

If we stay at #10 the four players I've had my eye on from the beginning are Nared, Nurse, Canada and Billings.

My gut says Canada and Nurse are gone by #10 (and that Canada might be a little redundant in terms of what we already have but I still really like her and would take her, and might even start her from day 1 at PG, but we probably have greater needs.)

So Nared is still my realistic 1st choice, with Billings as my second choice. I think Nared has lost some shine this season because she is trying to do too much. I liked her game more last year playing as the number two option behind Deshields which is more of the kind of role she we have at the next level. I also think Nared can play both as a big 3 or a skilled/stretch 4 allowing for more flexible line ups.

I'd rather have more of a scorer, but Billings will add some physicality, speed, shot blocking and rebounding, as an athletic post, and I think the Liberty could use a little more of that.

Trying to keep my eye on Vivians, S. Thomas and Scaife, but they haven't leap-froged my choices above. Though Vivians may have leap-froged our draft position.


Agree with everything you said about Nared, she is doing to much and forcing a lot of shots. A lot more pressure when you the Leader of the team and you feel like gotta put your team on ya back. She will not have that situation in the W.

Billings to me is kinda like a Nayo in a sense that's why I'm not really high on her like others. If Raincock can work on her jumper she would be even more valuable to the team.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/12/18 10:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As I said in an earlier post when Nared was going well, she reminds me of Swin Cash. Jaime is long, rebounds, defends, handles a bit, and while not a great shooter she can score in a number of ways. Contrary to popular opinion, someone can still be a very good player without being a great shooter. You just have to be more selective with your shots. That's been the problem for Nared. This season, she's forcing up more shots than she should. Meanwhile, the more she misses the more she presses. Last year, Nared could just pick her spots. Jaime is good at playing the role of assassin. Ignore Jaime and she'll kill you -- especially in big spots. But if you make an effort to stop her, Nared is easily stopped. That said, not everyone is good even when under the radar. It still takes a special talent to maximize your opportunities. Using an old hockey example, I think of Clark Gillies who played on a line with Bryan Trottier and Mike Bossy. Trottier and Bossy were genuinely great players. Gillies was along for the ride -- just a big garbage man who took advantage of scoring chances created by his linemates. But boy, did he cash-in on those opportunities! He wasn't just a garbage man, he was a great garbage man. Similarly, Nared looks like she can be a really good assassin.

Billings is a Nayo type physically and athletically. They are not the same player based on skill set and temperament. Billings blocks shots, Nayo doesn't. Billings is an active rebounder on both ends of the court, whereas Raincock is aggressive mostly on the offensive boards. Monique also has a bit of a midrange jump-shot. Nayo looks really shakey when she even attempts one. On the other hand, NRE is way better in the low post. Nayo also has a serene demeanor. She doesn't seem to get bothered by anything that happens on the court. Billings can get visibly frustrated. Both appear to have quick feet defending on the perimeter, which allows them to guard smaller players. However, Nayo has done it on the pro level which is obviously harder. She has also demonstrated the ability to play pro-style team defense, knowing when to switch and being in the right spot. That's something rookies normally struggle with. I do agree that Billings is probably my least favorite draft option. While they have differences, you still wouldn't want to put Nayo and Billings on the roster together because they're both smallish post players who can only play one position. Neither is big enough to function as a center at the WNBA level, and neither really has the offensive skills to play small forward except on an emergency basis.



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Love don't have any place
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PostPosted: 02/12/18 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
As I said in an earlier post when Nared was going well, she reminds me of Swin Cash. Jaime is long, rebounds, defends, handles a bit, and while not a great shooter she can score in a number of ways. Contrary to popular opinion, someone can still be a very good player without being a great shooter. You just have to be more selective with your shots. That's been the problem for Nared. This season, she's forcing up more shots than she should. Meanwhile, the more she misses the more she presses. Last year, Nared could just pick her spots. Jaime is good at playing the role of assassin. Ignore Jaime and she'll kill you -- especially in big spots. But if you make an effort to stop her, Nared is easily stopped. That said, not everyone is good even when under the radar. It still takes a special talent to maximize your opportunities. Using an old hockey example, I think of Clark Gillies who played on a line with Bryan Trottier and Mike Bossy. Trottier and Bossy were genuinely great players. Gillies was along for the ride -- just a big garbage man who took advantage of scoring chances created by his linemates. But boy, did he cash-in on those opportunities! He wasn't just a garbage man, he was a great garbage man. Similarly, Nared looks like she can be a really good assassin.

Billings is a Nayo type physically and athletically. They are not the same player based on skill set and temperament. Billings blocks shots, Nayo doesn't. Billings is an active rebounder on both ends of the court, whereas Raincock is aggressive mostly on the offensive boards. Monique also has a bit of a midrange jump-shot. Nayo looks really shakey when she even attempts one. On the other hand, NRE is way better in the low post. Nayo also has a serene demeanor. She doesn't seem to get bothered by anything that happens on the court. Billings can get visibly frustrated. Both appear to have quick feet defending on the perimeter, which allows them to guard smaller players. However, Nayo has done it on the pro level which is obviously harder. She has also demonstrated the ability to play pro-style team defense, knowing when to switch and being in the right spot. That's something rookies normally struggle with. I do agree that Billings is probably my least favorite draft option. While they have differences, you still wouldn't want to put Nayo and Billings on the roster together because they're both smallish post players who can only play one position. Neither is big enough to function as a center at the WNBA level, and neither really has the offensive skills to play small forward except on an emergency basis.


Wow! Trottier, Bossy, and Gillies. Great to read their names. And remember those four consecutive Stanley Cups. Smile



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
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PostPosted: 02/13/18 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So it seems pretty clear that Charles will be back so,

does anyone think Nayo might skip the season to focus on Team Canada?

On one hand she is a reserved player so there really isn't a rush to sign her, but on the other hand our other two reserved players signed (or were signed before) the first day NY announced signings.

I hope Nayo is on board, but if she isn't it solves the who will #10 replace on the roster issue (and probably increases the likelihood of drafting Billings or Nared).

Hartley/Boyd/L. Allen
Prince/Rodgers
Zelous/R. Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Stokes/Vaughn

#10


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 6:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
So it seems pretty clear that Charles will be back so,

does anyone think Nayo might skip the season to focus on Team Canada?

On one hand she is a reserved player so there really isn't a rush to sign her, but on the other hand our other two reserved players signed (or were signed before) the first day NY announced signings.

I hope Nayo is on board, but if she isn't it solves the who will #10 replace on the roster issue (and probably increases the likelihood of drafting Billings or Nared).

Hartley/Boyd/L. Allen
Prince/Rodgers
Zelous/R. Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Stokes/Vaughn

#10


I really hope Nayo is back this season. I'd rather see her on the roster than Vaughn, Zahui B., or Rebecca Allen. For me, Raincock-Ekunwe's hustle and rebounding give the team a real spark off the bench.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 7:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hartley/Boyd/L. Allen
Prince/Rodgers
Zelous/R. Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Stokes/Vaughn

This looks at best like a middle of the pack lineup to me. Charles is great of course but needs some help. I love Zellous but she's undersized for the SF and doesn't have an outside shot and is starting to age. Stokes and Vaughn are both kind of place holders. Prince and Rodgers both have shining moments followed by OMG moments. Hartley was better than I expected last year based on what she did (or didn't) in Washington but still not a top PG. Boyd coming back from injuries had lots of ??? before the injuries but now even more. I think I would try to move Sugar and one of Stokes/Vaughn for a more solid piece or a higher draft pick but not sure what/where they would find that piece.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 7:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty seem to have about the same players as last year when they won 22 games and the key ingredients are pretty much what they had the 2 prior seasons when they won 44 games. If nothing else, they will get a No. 10 draft pick as well to add to the mix. I can't see why they aren't a 20 game winner or better, this year as well. Have other teams improved that much?



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The Liberty seem to have about the same players as last year when they won 22 games and the key ingredients are pretty much what they had the 2 prior seasons when they won 44 games. If nothing else, they will get a No. 10 draft pick as well to add to the mix. I can't see why they aren't a 20 game winner or better, this year as well. Have other teams improved that much?


Intangibles have changed though. New coach, maybe new schemes, and a new atmosphere that could sap players' energy.


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PostPosted: 02/13/18 7:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I hope you are right and I am wrong and that the Dream can beat them 3 times this summer. I'm just not counting on it.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 8:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I hope you are right and I am wrong and that the Dream can beat them 3 times this summer. I'm just not counting on it.


Well, maybe not 3 times. Atlanta got Angel back and hopefully Nicki Collen will be an better coach than Cooper seemed to be. I couldn't get over how disengaged he seemed to be on the bench.


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PostPosted: 02/13/18 8:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Hartley/Boyd/L. Allen
Prince/Rodgers
Zelous/R. Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Stokes/Vaughn

This looks at best like a middle of the pack lineup to me. Charles is great of course but needs some help. I love Zellous but she's undersized for the SF and doesn't have an outside shot and is starting to age. Stokes and Vaughn are both kind of place holders. Prince and Rodgers both have shining moments followed by OMG moments. Hartley was better than I expected last year based on what she did (or didn't) in Washington but still not a top PG. Boyd coming back from injuries had lots of ??? before the injuries but now even more. I think I would try to move Sugar and one of Stokes/Vaughn for a more solid piece or a higher draft pick but not sure what/where they would find that piece.


I basically agree that last year’s lineup isn’t going to cut it. I’m assuming/hoping there will be one or two moves because I don’t think Piph and Sugar splitting two-guard time is going to cut it. And playing together, they had very little success. I don’t see that changing this year either.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 9:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I feel the same way about our 2018 prospects that I have for the last few seasons. Good team, will win plenty of regular-season games, some very obvious flaws, not a championship contender.

Barring any unexpected trades, barring much more from a #10 first-round pick than one would reasonably expect, I see the season riding on various players (mainly younger) who may or may not improve. If quite a few of them do, or if one or two of them improve dramatically, then this could be a much better team than anyone would expect. It's possible. Is it likely? Probably not.

The other big "maybe" for me is the coaching change. Katie Smith will be a head coach for the first time. That's a major challenge. Does she see things in certain players that Bill Laimbeer didn't? Were there suggestions she made that he didn't go for? Can she solve some of the riddles of this roster? I certainly don't know. Is it possible that she can do a much better job with the team than Laimbeer did? It's possible. Is it likely? Probably not.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 10:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree that Katie Smith as head coach could have an impact on the Liberty.

It's a lot easier to move from assistant to head coach if you're also moving to a new team. But the relationships with players as an assistant can be markedly different than the relationships as a head coach, and can be tough on both sides. (Often, the assistant is the good cop ...)

The other issue is that the team is one year older, and not necessarily one year better. There was an article in ESPN the Magazine about USOC research that showed that women decline at an earlier age in power and speed events than men, and some key basketball skills fit in both categories.

Charles is 29, Rodgers is 28, Prince is 30, Vaughn is 31 -- though none are ancient, the chances of improvement are probably less than the chances of decline.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 10:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I agree that Katie Smith as head coach could have an impact on the Liberty.

It's a lot easier to move from assistant to head coach if you're also moving to a new team. But the relationships with players as an assistant can be markedly different than the relationships as a head coach, and can be tough on both sides. (Often, the assistant is the good cop ...)

The other issue is that the team is one year older, and not necessarily one year better. There was an article in ESPN the Magazine about USOC research that showed that women decline at an earlier age in power and speed events than men, and some key basketball skills fit in both categories.

Charles is 29, Rodgers is 28, Prince is 30, Vaughn is 31 -- though none are ancient, the chances of improvement are probably less than the chances of decline.


I wrote a detailed post earlier about this. I won't repeat all of it. The team's older players are certainly unlikely to improve. (Though Rodgers could. She had a terrible shooting season in 2017, a real step back.) There are various younger players on the Liberty who could improve. Among them Stokes, Boyd, Hartley, Raincock-Ekunwe (if she's back), and Lindsay Allen.

I'm not saying anyone *will* improve, but it's certainly possible for those I've mentioned.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I agree that Katie Smith as head coach could have an impact on the Liberty.

It's a lot easier to move from assistant to head coach if you're also moving to a new team. But the relationships with players as an assistant can be markedly different than the relationships as a head coach, and can be tough on both sides. (Often, the assistant is the good cop ...)

The other issue is that the team is one year older, and not necessarily one year better. There was an article in ESPN the Magazine about USOC research that showed that women decline at an earlier age in power and speed events than men, and some key basketball skills fit in both categories.

Charles is 29, Rodgers is 28, Prince is 30, Vaughn is 31 -- though none are ancient, the chances of improvement are probably less than the chances of decline.


I wrote a detailed post earlier about this. I won't repeat all of it. The team's older players are certainly unlikely to improve. (Though Rodgers could. She had a terrible shooting season in 2017, a real step back.) There are various younger players on the Liberty who could improve. Among them Stokes, Boyd, Hartley, Raincock-Ekunwe (if she's back), and Lindsay Allen.

I'm not saying anyone *will* improve, but it's certainly possible for those I've mentioned.


Agreed ... but the key players are probably Charles, Rodgers and Prince, in the sense that they are the best players on the team. Now if Stokes suddenly starts scoring 10-12 a game, that changes, or if Boyd has mastered a three-pointer during her time off. But it seems to me improving roleplayers are less important than declining stars. (Though the older players could get better and the younger ones regress ... you just never know.)



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Charles and Rodgers are December babies, so they will stay 29 and 28 for the whole season. Prince just turned 30. They're not that far from the supposed peak age of 27, which no one has convincingly proven is true anyway. None of these players have known chronic conditions that can impair performance. None of them showed a decline in effectiveness based on physical issues last season. Rodgers and Prince were mostly hampered by having to share the SG position. Both are much better as starters, while their production falls off dramatically coming off the bench. So let's be real. Any suggestion that Tina, Sugar, and Piph are subject to imminent decline based on age is simply overthinking. The most likely outcome is that these players stay more or less the same. The wildcard is how the players will be affected if Katie Smith uses different systems or assigns them new roles. Since we have no way of knowing this, any such discussion is a waste of time.

The reality is that every year people (including Liberty fans) expect New York to suck or be mediocre and most years they exceed expectations. Why? Because fans primarily look at offense, and they tend to value individual play. The Liberty in recent years have been defense-oriented and they manage to be more than the sum of their parts based on scheme, strategy, and execution. Now, whether Katie Smith can keep this going without Laimbeer is something we'll have to wait and see.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 4:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Charles and Rodgers are December babies, so they will stay 29 and 28 for the whole season. Prince just turned 30. They're not that far from the supposed peak age of 27, which no one has convincingly proven is true anyway. None of these players have known chronic conditions that can impair performance. None of them showed a decline in effectiveness based on physical issues last season. Rodgers and Prince were mostly hampered by having to share the SG position. Both are much better as starters, while their production falls off dramatically coming off the bench. So let's be real. Any suggestion that Tina, Sugar, and Piph are subject to imminent decline based on age is simply overthinking. The most likely outcome is that these players stay more or less the same. The wildcard is how the players will be affected if Katie Smith uses different systems or assigns them new roles. Since we have no way of knowing this, any such discussion is a waste of time.

The reality is that every year people (including Liberty fans) expect New York to suck or be mediocre and most years they exceed expectations. Why? Because fans primarily look at offense, and they tend to value individual play. The Liberty in recent years have been defense-oriented and they manage to be more than the sum of their parts based on scheme, strategy, and execution. Now, whether Katie Smith can keep this going without Laimbeer is something we'll have to wait and see.


I agree with all of this. Excellent observations.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 9:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Charles and Rodgers are December babies, so they will stay 29 and 28 for the whole season. Prince just turned 30. They're not that far from the supposed peak age of 27, which no one has convincingly proven is true anyway. None of these players have known chronic conditions that can impair performance. None of them showed a decline in effectiveness based on physical issues last season. Rodgers and Prince were mostly hampered by having to share the SG position. Both are much better as starters, while their production falls off dramatically coming off the bench. So let's be real. Any suggestion that Tina, Sugar, and Piph are subject to imminent decline based on age is simply overthinking. The most likely outcome is that these players stay more or less the same. The wildcard is how the players will be affected if Katie Smith uses different systems or assigns them new roles. Since we have no way of knowing this, any such discussion is a waste of time.

The reality is that every year people (including Liberty fans) expect New York to suck or be mediocre and most years they exceed expectations. Why? Because fans primarily look at offense, and they tend to value individual play. The Liberty in recent years have been defense-oriented and they manage to be more than the sum of their parts based on scheme, strategy, and execution. Now, whether Katie Smith can keep this going without Laimbeer is something we'll have to wait and see.


I agree...but also for that reason I think there is addition by subtraction by breaking up prince and Rodgers...they tried prince at the 1...disaster...hell if the 2 were together more than 10 minutes...disaster...

team was different when Rodgers came off the bench and Hartley held down the 1 and the results showed that...night and day...the record with and without are scary...I don't want to see either go but that looks like that may be for the better.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think/hope Rodgers will have a better 18 than 17, she was on upward trajectory the last few season, and stumbled in 17, in 18 she will be better IMO whether she is the starter or coming off the bench.

It was discussed in the Minny thread would you do Prince for #12? I like Prince but I would do it. Yes Prince is better than a 12 pick but I think solving the Prince/Rodgers SG spot allowing Rodgers to start where she excelled in 16 and the parts of 17, and Hartley and Zelous to play more at the 2, giving Boyd and L. Allen more time to play at the 1 creates better balance.

Than we can get two decent young players at #10 and #12 to fill out the roster.


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PostPosted: 02/14/18 10:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is completely random, but isn’t Shoni Schimmel still technically under contract? Has she retired officially?



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 10:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I think/hope Rodgers will have a better 18 than 17, she was on upward trajectory the last few season, and stumbled in 17, in 18 she will be better IMO whether she is the starter or coming off the bench.

It was discussed in the Minny thread would you do Prince for #12? I like Prince but I would do it. Yes Prince is better than a 12 pick but I think solving the Prince/Rodgers SG spot allowing Rodgers to start where she excelled in 16 and the parts of 17, and Hartley and Zelous to play more at the 2, giving Boyd and L. Allen more time to play at the 1 creates better balance.

Than we can get two decent young players at #10 and #12 to fill out the roster.



Rodgers has been inconsistent her whole career, every year i say to myself i think she's gonna be a star, because of her talent. we all know she can shoot and play Defense

maybe it's got to do with everything of what's been going on but im gonna stay optimistic/positive and hope for the best.

my future idea starting lineup this year i would like to see

Boyd
Rodgers
Vivians/Nared
Charles
Stokes

yes i would put the rookie in the fire right away, see how they handle it. if we draft Nurse i would put her at the 2 and Rodgers at the 3. Prince and Zellous will come off the bench to make our bench strong. now i doubt Katie will do that but just an idea to bring up to maximize our team.


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PostPosted: 02/14/18 11:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UK1996 wrote:
This is completely random, but isn’t Shoni Schimmel still technically under contract? Has she retired officially?

Assuming NY made a qualifying offer I think she would at least have reservationed status



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 1:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
UK1996 wrote:
This is completely random, but isn’t Shoni Schimmel still technically under contract? Has she retired officially?

Assuming NY made a qualifying offer I think she would at least have reservationed status


If I remember the rules correctly she was suspended last year for the whole season which means

she is technically in the 4th year of her rookie contract, and therefor still under contract with the Liberty if she returns to the W.

I would love a redemption story, and her skill set offers a nice variation on what we already have, but I'm not counting on it, and if she did return she would still have to beat someone out to get an actual roster spot.


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PostPosted: 02/15/18 2:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
At #10 I'd prefer Billings or even Vivians to get a legit SF. I'm still holding out hope we get a post FA.

PG: Boyd/L. Allen
SG: Prince/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Zellous/draft pick
PF: Charles/Raincock/FA
C: Vaughn/Stokes
Gone: R. Allen/Zahui B.


Raincock-Ekunwe should try and transition to 3 if she primarily plays power forward. She is undersized for a power forward and seems athletic enough for 3. Unless I am being overly influenced by the way she runs the floor with such speed.


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PostPosted: 02/15/18 3:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
toad455 wrote:
At #10 I'd prefer Billings or even Vivians to get a legit SF. I'm still holding out hope we get a post FA.

PG: Boyd/L. Allen
SG: Prince/Rodgers/Hartley
SF: Zellous/draft pick
PF: Charles/Raincock/FA
C: Vaughn/Stokes
Gone: R. Allen/Zahui B.


Raincock-Ekunwe should try and transition to 3 if she primarily plays power forward. She is undersized for a power forward and seems athletic enough for 3. Unless I am being overly influenced by the way she runs the floor with such speed.


She's definitely athletic enough. Drawback is lack of an effective jump shot, which becomes quite an issue when one plays away from the paint.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 7:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I think/hope Rodgers will have a better 18 than 17, she was on upward trajectory the last few season, and stumbled in 17, in 18 she will be better IMO whether she is the starter or coming off the bench.

It was discussed in the Minny thread would you do Prince for #12? I like Prince but I would do it. Yes Prince is better than a 12 pick but I think solving the Prince/Rodgers SG spot allowing Rodgers to start where she excelled in 16 and the parts of 17, and Hartley and Zelous to play more at the 2, giving Boyd and L. Allen more time to play at the 1 creates better balance.

Than we can get two decent young players at #10 and #12 to fill out the roster.


Personally I'd rather package prince or Rodgers with 10 and try to move up a spot or two to have more of a pick of the litter...But that's just me...Prince for 12 straight is an undersell but between EuroBasket and Injuries Prince's GP is a question mark...so its not a terrible deal...would like a TCC or a token lower round future pick just to balance it more but I too would give prince up for the 12

EXCEPT the optics would be horrible...(fans would yell FIRE SALE in a crowded STH meeting) so would have to be done after the draft when a name is tagged with the pick.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 8:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How about Clarendon+16 for L. Allen and No. 10?



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 10:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would agree that the Liberty stars are very likely to continue to perform at a high level -- my point was, however, to expect improvement is probably expecting too much.

So the question would be what has to happen for the Liberty to make the jump from pretty good team to title contender, and I think the answer would have to come from a roleplayer like Boyd taking a huge leap forward, or a draft pick turning into a star.

And lurking in the background is the hard truth that the older a player, the more likely an injury.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 10:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
They're not that far from the supposed peak age of 27, which no one has convincingly proven is true anyway


It's been pretty convincingly shown that on average players peak at age 27. However, individuals can vary greatly. Nikki Teasley was washed up by age 28. Sheryl Swoopes won the first of her three MVP awards at age 29. Trying to apply a general theory to a specific individual is a crime against statistics.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
root_thing wrote:
They're not that far from the supposed peak age of 27, which no one has convincingly proven is true anyway


It's been pretty convincingly shown that on average players peak at age 27. However, individuals can vary greatly. Nikki Teasley was washed up by age 28. Sheryl Swoopes won the first of her three MVP awards at age 29. Trying to apply a general theory to a specific individual is a crime against statistics.


Agreed.

To note one relevant example, I feel that Shavonte Zellous (who is currently about 31 1/2 years old) gave the Liberty much more in 2017 than in 2016. She was on the court for more minutes so her stats are generally better, but I'm not making this argument based on stats. In 2017, she provided far more leadership on the court as New York struggled all season to figure out who should play point guard. I'd call that "improvement."



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 11:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
How about Clarendon+16 for L. Allen and No. 10?


You don’t like Clarendon? She’s one of Voepel’s top candidates to take Whalen’s spot on Team USA. What are you wanting at #10 that you’d be willing to dispose of Clarendon to move up 6 spots?



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 12:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
How about Clarendon+16 for L. Allen and No. 10?


You don’t like Clarendon? She’s one of Voepel’s top candidates to take Whalen’s spot on Team USA. What are you wanting at #10 that you’d be willing to dispose of Clarendon to move up 6 spots?


I like Clarendon just fine, but we may not be able to keep her, Tip, Angel, Elizabeth and Dantas next season due to the salary cap. Not sure whose contract ends when but I would not be surprised if Tip and or Laysia are FA's next year, along with Angel, while Williams and Dantas will be RFA's. Plus, her name has come up a few times as a trade candidate.

As far as Team USA goes, I don't really care much who makes the team.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 12:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You may not care for the fanfare of Team USA, but she wouldn’t make the team unless she had that level of merit. It did look like she was going hard in practice.

I think Whalen’s spot is Diggins’ to lose, but you never know.

ATL doesn’t strike me as a team that would have cap issues, not enough so to worry about Clarendon. Let’s worry about winning instead.



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