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Evidence The WNBA Is Underpaying Players

 
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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 4:09 pm    ::: Evidence The WNBA Is Underpaying Players Reply Reply with quote

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidberri/2017/09/20/there-is-a-growing-gender-wage-gap-in-professional-basketball/#5ca4232936e0

Quote:
in 2017, the WNBA paid no more than 22.8% of its revenue to its players. (The total revenue figure is likely to be significantly higher than the estimate used in the calculation; the total salary figure is not.) Two years ago, I used the same approach to estimate that the WNBA players were receiving only 33% of league revenue. So it appears the gender wage gap in professional basketball is worsening.



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josephkramer44



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 4:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Any demand by the players for additional revenues will be met by threats to shut the league down. No matter how justified their requests are. For the wear and tear that they are putting on their bodies (not as bad as football but there are physical consequences later in life, especially on the joints for BBall players) it doesn't seem like they are being properly compensated. But then again how much demand is there? No easy answers.


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PostPosted: 09/21/17 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

josephkramer44 wrote:
Any demand by the players for additional revenues will be met by threats to shut the league down. No matter how justified their requests are. For the wear and tear that they are putting on their bodies (not as bad as football but there are physical consequences later in life, especially on the joints for BBall players) it doesn't seem like they are being properly compensated. But then again how much demand is there? No easy answers.


A lot of people are quick to say the WNBA is NBA's charity project, but it's the same way for a lot of the players. The stars don't need to play basketball over the summer.


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PostPosted: 09/21/17 5:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
josephkramer44 wrote:
Any demand by the players for additional revenues will be met by threats to shut the league down. No matter how justified their requests are. For the wear and tear that they are putting on their bodies (not as bad as football but there are physical consequences later in life, especially on the joints for BBall players) it doesn't seem like they are being properly compensated. But then again how much demand is there? No easy answers.


A lot of people are quick to say the WNBA is NBA's charity project, but it's the same way for a lot of the players. The stars don't need to play basketball over the summer.


I seem to recall the Mystics' President Sheila Johnson describing her team as a "vanity project". Rolling Eyes



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 6:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not surprised. Maybe they shouldn't be millionaires for three months of work, but they should definitely be compensated more than what they are currently receiving.



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 8:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's not surprising that it's getting worse - the League has added new revenue streams, and the better ESPN deal; the CBA framework is still from 2014. It's going to be an interesting CBA negotiation in two years (when the Players' Association will likely activate the opt-out clause).



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 9:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

yeah, I'm not expecting the new CBA to be signed quickly.



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
yeah, I'm not expecting the new CBA to be signed quickly.

Hopefully they have the sense to start neogtiating early like the NBA and their players' union did for their most recent deal. For a niche league a lockout/strike really isn't a good idea.



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 09/21/17 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

An interesting albeit incomplete article.

I suppose we will know by November next year that the players have opted out effective after the 2019 season. A year should give them a lot of time to talk although there is the unique WNBA problem of getting everyone in the same room.

It would have been nice for the article to discuss some actual reasons for the differences. In this case, the players have nowhere else to go for these specific months unless they pull a Deanna Nolan, so the WNBA has plenty of leverage. On the other hand, the other wage costs that WNBA teams have compared to players is massive compared to the difference between players and non-players in the NBA. In order to get decent coaches, they either have to pay competitively with college or hire coaches that colleges would not touch. Also, especially for the teams that cannot share resources with NBA teams, they have to offer competitive salaries to other staff positions to find people.
josephkramer44



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PostPosted: 09/22/17 12:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I just don't see the owners agreeing to substantial pay raises. The players simply don't have any clout.


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/23/17 11:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA salaries in focus as Finals tip off

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/20797116/wnba-salaries-focus-finals-tip-off

Quote:
Sparks forward Nneka Ogwumike, president of the WNBA Players Association, wouldn't say whether the players would opt out. But she called a 50 percent share of revenue something to shoot for.

"Knowing how far we need to go, that's a good marker," she said. "If you just think of it from a principle standpoint, it makes sense. Hopefully we can work toward that.



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 3:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

These twitter posts by WNBAPA & Swin Cash within the last 5 hrs makes me concerned the lockout could be very much so in the works. I remember back in 2008 i believe there were talks of a lockout but both sides reached an agreement on time. This league has a far better chance of surviving a lockout today than they did almost a decade ago , but still kind of concerning bc the WNBA could pull a NHL move and not budge smh.



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PostPosted: 09/25/17 3:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Anyone have NBA Salary figures around there 20th season?



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PostPosted: 09/26/17 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"...the maximum veteran's salary will rise only slightly, from $113,500 to $121,500. Most players make significantly less..."

How do you publish this article without specifically detailing what "most players make?"


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PostPosted: 01/29/18 10:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote



Source:
https://twitter.com/auswomensport/status/955685931473760256

http://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202017.pdf



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PostPosted: 01/29/18 10:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:


Source:
https://twitter.com/auswomensport/status/955685931473760256

http://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202017.pdf


WNBL players make so little they don't even get on the charts?

Also - where are the overseas baskeball leagues that pay WNBA players all the money?



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:


Source:
https://twitter.com/auswomensport/status/955685931473760256

http://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202017.pdf


WNBL players make so little they don't even get on the charts?

Also - where are the overseas baskeball leagues that pay WNBA players all the money?


That was my question too but maybe they don't pay the locals much at all ...



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Randy



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The report is really long so naturally, I didn't read it. It is mostly about men's sports where actual info is reported. The one that astounds me is netball in Australia paying so much relative to the other sports. Perhaps Luuc can shed some light on that. I recall Sancho Lyttle said she played netball before. Perhaps other players have as well.



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:


Source:
https://twitter.com/auswomensport/status/955685931473760256

http://globalsportssalaries.com/GSSS%202017.pdf


WNBL players make so little they don't even get on the charts?

Also - where are the overseas baskeball leagues that pay WNBA players all the money?


That was my question too but maybe they don't pay the locals much at all ...


The report addresses this at page 21:

Quote:

GLOBAL POSITIONING

It has been prominently noted in recent years that many WNBA players spend their off-season playing for second teams in foreign leagues, occasionally for enormous sums they could not possibly earn at home where there is a cap on individual pay. It happens, and more players now go abroad during this time than stay at home. But they are not all benefits of huge extra paydays. Those tend to come at a select few teams in a select few leagues - with the stress on ‘few’ in both cases.

Most prominent among those leagues (for those biggest paydays) are the top divisions in Russia and Turkey. And within the former, the particularly rich clubs currently are UMMC Ekaterinburg (winners of the last nine straight Russian Women’s Premier League titles) and Dynamo Kursk. Notwithstanding that there is no accurate wage data publicly available for these teams, let alone for the leagues, it is understood such wealth is not widespread. Where huge wages exist, they are ‘subsidised’ for commercial and PR reasons, as in Ekaterinburg by mining firm UMMC. Hence our belief is that the WNBA remains - as far as is demonstrable - the best paid women’s league as whole, as well as the best women’s basketball league by strength in depth.


Last edited by GlennMacGrady on 01/30/18 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 01/30/18 2:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Props to whoever named a league the "Big Bash".


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PostPosted: 02/13/18 8:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://www.tmz.com/2018/02/13/angel-mccoughtry-wnba-team-usa-basketball-equal-pay/

Quote:
"Pay us like you pay the men. I don't want to get paid more overseas. I want to get paid in my country."



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 9:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fill 20,000-seat arenas 100 times a year while drawing millions upon millions to watch you on TV all over the world, and they'll pay you like Steph Curry. It's a fucking nonsensical argument. If you're doing community theatre in Bumblefuck, Iowa you don't get paid the same as Jennifer Lawrence for her latest blockbuster movie. You might both be actresses, but you're not creating anything like the same total earnings, because vastly fewer people care. McCoughtry and Curry might both be basketball players, but until more people give a shit about women's basketball there's no sensible reason why they should earn anything remotely similar.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 9:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Fill 20,000-seat arenas 100 times a year while drawing millions upon millions to watch you on TV all over the world, and they'll pay you like Steph Curry. It's a fucking nonsensical argument. If you're doing community theatre in Bumblefuck, Iowa you don't get paid the same as Jennifer Lawrence for her latest blockbuster movie. You might both be actresses, but you're not creating anything like the same total earnings, because vastly fewer people care. McCoughtry and Curry might both be basketball players, but until more people give a shit about women's basketball there's no sensible reason why they should earn anything remotely similar.


And what would you know about Bumblefuck, huh??



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 9:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that Bumblefuck is in Georgia. I've driven though it a few times.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 10:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Fill 20,000-seat arenas 100 times a year while drawing millions upon millions to watch you on TV all over the world, and they'll pay you like Steph Curry. It's a fucking nonsensical argument. If you're doing community theatre in Bumblefuck, Iowa you don't get paid the same as Jennifer Lawrence for her latest blockbuster movie. You might both be actresses, but you're not creating anything like the same total earnings, because vastly fewer people care. McCoughtry and Curry might both be basketball players, but until more people give a shit about women's basketball there's no sensible reason why they should earn anything remotely similar.


How about a similar percentage of basketball revenue?



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 10:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
How about a similar percentage of basketball revenue?

Yeah, that one, the discussion that originally started this thread, is a reasonable debate. I don't pretend to have the financial knowledge to know if this particular league could give 50% of basketball related income to the players and remain viable, but at least it's a sensible discussion. It's just the occasional wailing of "the women should be paid like the men!" that annoys me. Women in the workplace doing the same exact job as men but being paid less is a real thing, and deserves to have attention paid to it and be rectified. But when you're in an entertainment industry and there just aren't that many people who find you entertaining, expecting to be paid like people in a similar - yet wildly more popular - branch is ridiculous.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 10:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My quick calculation says that if WNBA pay was raised to 50% from 22.8% each team would have to pay about $1 million more than they currently pay. How many teams could afford that? I don't know.



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PostPosted: 02/13/18 10:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
How about a similar percentage of basketball revenue?

Yeah, that one, the discussion that originally started this thread, is a reasonable debate. I don't pretend to have the financial knowledge to know if this particular league could give 50% of basketball related income to the players and remain viable, but at least it's a sensible discussion. It's just the occasional wailing of "the women should be paid like the men!" that annoys me. Women in the workplace doing the same exact job as men but being paid less is a real thing, and deserves to have attention paid to it and be rectified. But when you're in an entertainment industry and there just aren't that many people who find you entertaining, expecting to be paid like people in a similar - yet wildly more popular - branch is ridiculous.

Even the percentage argument doesn't stack up at all IMO.
There's no way that the overhead costs of running the NBA are higher than the WNBA in the same ratio as the revenue difference. Does Talking Stick Resort Arena cost 50x more to hire for an NBA game than a WNBA game? No. Are there 50x more front office staff for an NBA team? No. Are travel expenses 50x more? No.

You can only pay players with the money that remains after you have received your revenue and then paid your bills. I wish our players could get an instant tenfold increase in salary but let's be realistic.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 1:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think any demand for a large raise would be met by threats of shutting the league down. As most of the teams almost certainly lose quite a bit of money where is the incentive to lose even more money?


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PostPosted: 02/14/18 1:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Although when it comes to people like Angel, there's also the question of whether she should be earning a bigger slice of the pie, even if the pie stayed exactly the same size. That's where things like unions and collective bargaining and salary caps come back to bite her. Without that stuff the market would probably look a lot more like overseas - pay the stars top dollar, and fill the rosters out with players barely being paid enough to get the bus to the arena.

Although with the rash of star players taking years off, it's going to be interesting to see if they make more significant changes in the next CBA. There always seem to be noises about it and then they come back with a deal that's 98% the same as the last one.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 12:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What happens to the Liberty will have a major impact on the CBA ...

If Dolan cannot sell the team, or essentially gives it away, then the players' bargaining position is extremely weak. If, however, someone gives Dolan actual cash for the Liberty, then the players can argue that franchise value appreciation should be considered during the talks.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 12:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is MSG a public company? Would they have to reveal the sale price?



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Is MSG a public company? Would they have to reveal the sale price?


Yes, MSG is a public company. I don't know if there is a legal requirement that they announce the sales price, but it would be normal practice. At the very least you should see it in the financial statements. Any sale would show a gain or loss. It also changes the assets and liabilities on your balance sheet.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 12:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would expect the WNBA to trumpet the sale price, as the potential increase in value of each franchise would most likely offset whatever would have to be given to the players.



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PostPosted: 02/14/18 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
How about a similar percentage of basketball revenue?

Yeah, that one, the discussion that originally started this thread, is a reasonable debate. I don't pretend to have the financial knowledge to know if this particular league could give 50% of basketball related income to the players and remain viable, but at least it's a sensible discussion. It's just the occasional wailing of "the women should be paid like the men!" that annoys me. Women in the workplace doing the same exact job as men but being paid less is a real thing, and deserves to have attention paid to it and be rectified. But when you're in an entertainment industry and there just aren't that many people who find you entertaining, expecting to be paid like people in a similar - yet wildly more popular - branch is ridiculous.

Even the percentage argument doesn't stack up at all IMO.
There's no way that the overhead costs of running the NBA are higher than the WNBA in the same ratio as the revenue difference. Does Talking Stick Resort Arena cost 50x more to hire for an NBA game than a WNBA game? No. Are there 50x more front office staff for an NBA team? No. Are travel expenses 50x more? No.

You can only pay players with the money that remains after you have received your revenue and then paid your bills. I wish our players could get an instant tenfold increase in salary but let's be realistic.


The same issue is happening in Women's and lower division soccer here, although the USL is starting to move towards contracts that last the whole year even if it's just spreading the same amount of money over a longer period of time. The salary of NWSL players who do not get federation support is ridiculous. Unfortunately for athletes, the number of them who want to be professionals generally outstrips demand and there really is no alternative or leverage for most of them. In the United States, the existence and heavy subsidization of college sports makes it harder for the smaller professional sports because they have a hard time matching the salaries for non-playing staff that college offers.
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PostPosted: 02/15/18 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Although when it comes to people like Angel, there's also the question of whether she should be earning a bigger slice of the pie, even if the pie stayed exactly the same size. That's where things like unions and collective bargaining and salary caps come back to bite her. Without that stuff the market would probably look a lot more like overseas - pay the stars top dollar, and fill the rosters out with players barely being paid enough to get the bus to the arena.

Although with the rash of star players taking years off, it's going to be interesting to see if they make more significant changes in the next CBA. There always seem to be noises about it and then they come back with a deal that's 98% the same as the last one.


The thing that fries me is that there's something like twenty-five percent of the league that's eligible for (and receives) the "veteran max." That means that roughly 33 players in the WNBA get paid the same amount of money as Angel McCoughtry. Since there are not, in fact, 33 players in the WNBA as good as Angel McCoughtry, I can empathize with why that would bother her.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 1:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Last time I added it up it was about 40% of the league on max or what I considered 'near-max'.



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Forty percent... Now I'm trying to imagine what the landscape of the NBA would look like, if there were 180 players that got paid the same amount of money as Russell Westbrook?



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PostPosted: 02/15/18 9:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Fill 20,000-seat arenas 100 times a year while drawing millions upon millions to watch you on TV all over the world, and they'll pay you like Steph Curry. It's a fucking nonsensical argument. If you're doing community theatre in Bumblefuck, Iowa you don't get paid the same as Jennifer Lawrence for her latest blockbuster movie. You might both be actresses, but you're not creating anything like the same total earnings, because vastly fewer people care. McCoughtry and Curry might both be basketball players, but until more people give a shit about women's basketball there's no sensible reason why they should earn anything remotely similar.


Absolutely. It's a business not a government program. It's the product not the sex. Supply and demand economics.



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