View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8277 Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 4:31 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I just reskimmed this entire thread and have three miscellaneous comments.
pilight wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
Gabby Williams = Armintie Price in the W |
So you're predicting Rookie of the Year for her? |
And being a lottery pick! |
And having a career scoring average of 5.9 PPG?
As an abstract question, if a player player shoots 58% against mixed college competition but all those shots are layup attempts, is that an impressive shooting performance for purposes of predicting WNBA success?
Victoria Vivians has been significantly ignored and devalued throughout this thread except by Debbie Antonelli and, very occasionally, by a couple of others. She's got good SF size, good IQ, good defensive training from Vic Schaefer, and has really upped her shooting game this season from all molecules of the maple. |
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18073 Location: Queens
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 8:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Vivians's shot selection and on-court IQ were being questioned early in her career, and you know how first impressions are.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
|
|
Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24412 Location: London
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 10:48 am ::: |
Reply |
|
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
As an abstract question, if a player player shoots 58% against mixed college competition but all those shots are layup attempts, is that an impressive shooting performance for purposes of predicting WNBA success? |
It still really depends. Is she a 6-6 bully who gets endless layups because no one can stop her inside? Or are you a 5-7 guard who can finish layups at the college level but might struggle against pro athletes? Even then it can be a bit of a crapshoot. The 6-6 bully might have problems against the bigger defenders in the pros too.
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Victoria Vivians has been significantly ignored and devalued throughout this thread except by Debbie Antonelli and, very occasionally, by a couple of others. She's got good SF size, good IQ, good defensive training from Vic Schaefer, and has really upped her shooting game this season from all molecules of the maple. |
sigur3 and I have discussed Vivians a couple of times. The last three years her shooting numbers were so awful that whatever you thought of her 'pro body' it tanked her potential as a prospect. Then her numbers skyrocketed this year. You always worry about the mirage of a small sample size with a jump like that, but she could easily go first round if a GM buys this year's improvement as real. |
|
Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 3:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
McCowan. She didn't play much earlier on, she gives Vivians some wide open looks as the defense has to respond to McCowans size.
|
|
sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 6191 Location: Chicago-ish
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 3:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Richyyy wrote: |
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Victoria Vivians has been significantly ignored and devalued throughout this thread except by Debbie Antonelli and, very occasionally, by a couple of others. She's got good SF size, good IQ, good defensive training from Vic Schaefer, and has really upped her shooting game this season from all molecules of the maple. |
sigur3 and I have discussed Vivians a couple of times. The last three years her shooting numbers were so awful that whatever you thought of her 'pro body' it tanked her potential as a prospect. Then her numbers skyrocketed this year. You always worry about the mirage of a small sample size with a jump like that, but she could easily go first round if a GM buys this year's improvement as real. |
Mississippi State has also turned its offense completely upside down. They run a lot of 4 out, 1 in now with Vivians at the 4, which absolutely benefits her on the offensive end. On defense...let's just say I don't think she'll be a stretch 4 in the WNBA. Her rebounding instincts are not good and Vic often tears into her during timeouts for lollygagging on D.
That being said, I definitely think she's first-round worthy, especially for a good team that can just stash her and let her mature for a year or two.
|
|
WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12636 Location: Dallas , Texas
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 3:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Mercedes Russell could be playing herself into a lottery pick .
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63960
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 3:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=22170335&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe>
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=22170334&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe>
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 4:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Mercedes Russell could be playing herself into a lottery pick . |
I doubt it. Someone has to be desperate for size to do that. She belongs somewhere between 5 and 9 IMO
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
|
|
zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8193
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 4:51 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I was down on Vivians last season.But her stock has gone all the way up.She's a legit 1st rd pick.
|
|
LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 895 Location: NY
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 5:09 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
zune69 wrote: |
I was down on Vivians last season.But her stock has gone all the way up.She's a legit 1st rd pick. |
she's playing great this season, i was one them down on her as well but i thought if she turn it around this season she would sky rocket into a 1st rounder.
Nared who i've been very high on hoping my Libs would draft her at 10, struggled a bit, i still believe in her potential so im not giving up on her just yet
|
|
WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12636 Location: Dallas , Texas
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 5:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
LibFan25 wrote: |
zune69 wrote: |
I was down on Vivians last season.But her stock has gone all the way up.She's a legit 1st rd pick. |
she's playing great this season, i was one them down on her as well but i thought if she turn it around this season she would sky rocket into a 1st rounder.
Nared who i've been very high on hoping my Libs would draft her at 10, struggled a bit, i still believe in her potential so im not giving up on her just yet |
This might offend some, but i believe Vivians has surpasses Nared in this draft. Nareds game has hurt the most from not having DD anymore. Shes made to be a 2nd star or a robin type player. Her as a lead scorer will not produce titles.
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
|
|
PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16391 Location: Chicago
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 5:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I just reskimmed this entire thread and have three miscellaneous comments.
pilight wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
Gabby Williams = Armintie Price in the W |
So you're predicting Rookie of the Year for her? |
And being a lottery pick! |
And having a career scoring average of 5.9 PPG? |
And lets all remember that Price-Harrington was a big scorer in college.
|
|
J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6831
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 10:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
There are some very interesting points made in the college thread about over valuing G. Williams (viewed as a #4 to #7 pick) and under valuing Nurse (as a #9 to #15 pick) and the thread has some decent arguments as to why Nurse may be a better pro.
So informal poll. You are the GM (of an imaginary team, or the team you root for) you have the next pick, both Williams and Nurse are on the board, and you have to pick one of them. Who do you pick? And Why?
|
|
barryi22
Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Posts: 474 Location: In the USA
Back to top |
Posted: 01/21/18 11:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I’d take Vivians top 5 if I’m a GM. So improved from a year ago in regards to shot selection and decision making.. She absolutely owned Nared today. I’ve been more impressed with her this year than a lot of other players predicted to go ahead of her.
|
|
root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 12:44 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Nared played really well in the first four games I watched this season, but she's been terrible in the last three. Vivians was a low IQ volume shooter in her first three years, but suddenly she's smart and accurate. Collier was great last year, but her numbers have fallen off a cliff this season. Now, she's overrated. Greenwell was terrific for about a dozen games to begin last season, but she's been mediocre since. Remember a couple of years ago when McGee-Stafford-Boyette got off to a slow start, then had about a dozen really good games before going back to being disappointing? And then there was Jonquel Jones who started her senior season hot, got hurt, and subsequently became an afterthought on this board. Yes, people still acknowledged that she was a 1st Round pick, but there was very little discussion about her before the draft.
My point is that you can never be certain with these players. Performance changes for a variety of reasons ranging from the personal (injury, pressure to do more, natural peaks and slumps) to changes in the supporting cast. It could be their coach telling them to play a certain way (eg, shoot more 3s because the team needs it) or maybe opposing coaches have learned to defend them better. Now it's the player's turn to make a counter adjustment. That's why I wouldn't jump to quick conclusions so early in the process. I assure you, there will be more twist and turns before the draft. Someone who is struggling will get hot. Someone who is hot will come down to earth. Much of it is simply about making shots. It's hard to look good when you're missing and it's hard to look bad when you're making baskets. It's amazing how fans will view you as not only being more skilled, but also as smarter, faster, taller, more athletic, and less unselfish if you simply make shots.
_________________ You can always do something else.
|
|
Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5436 Location: Chocolate Paradise
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 5:39 am ::: |
Reply |
|
root_thing wrote: |
Nared played really well in the first four games I watched this season, but she's been terrible in the last three. Vivians was a low IQ volume shooter in her first three years, but suddenly she's smart and accurate. Collier was great last year, but her numbers have fallen off a cliff this season. Now, she's overrated. Greenwell was terrific for about a dozen games to begin last season, but she's been mediocre since. Remember a couple of years ago when McGee-Stafford-Boyette got off to a slow start, then had about a dozen really good games before going back to being disappointing? And then there was Jonquel Jones who started her senior season hot, got hurt, and subsequently became an afterthought on this board. Yes, people still acknowledged that she was a 1st Round pick, but there was very little discussion about her before the draft.
My point is that you can never be certain with these players. Performance changes for a variety of reasons ranging from the personal (injury, pressure to do more, natural peaks and slumps) to changes in the supporting cast. It could be their coach telling them to play a certain way (eg, shoot more 3s because the team needs it) or maybe opposing coaches have learned to defend them better. Now it's the player's turn to make a counter adjustment. That's why I wouldn't jump to quick conclusions so early in the process. I assure you, there will be more twist and turns before the draft. Someone who is struggling will get hot. Someone who is hot will come down to earth. Much of it is simply about making shots. It's hard to look good when you're missing and it's hard to look bad when you're making baskets. It's amazing how fans will view you as not only being more skilled, but also as smarter, faster, taller, more athletic, and less unselfish if you simply make shots. |
Your comment agrees with what Doc Rivers said about the NBA. He said the NBA is a make or miss league.
_________________ You can win, as long as you keep your head to the SKY! Be OPTIMISTIC!
|
|
Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 9:07 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I was hoping earlier that maybe VV would fall to 16, but she picked a bad time get smart.
Now it looks like Nared falling to 16 might be the Dream' best hope. They love to pick LV players after the first round anyway. Why not.
As for McCowan/Russell it seems to me that yesterday showed McCowan couldn't stop Russell only the LV could stop Russell, and couldn't score much against Russell. As for Russell seems like she can't rebound with McCowan around. I think McCowan probably needs another season and Russell is not a lottery pick.
|
|
zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8193
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 11:08 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Russell's stock went up in the 1st half,then back down in the 2nd......I don't know what to think at this point...Maybe Dallas can trade the #6 pk and Christmas for Stokes and Rogers.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Dallas traded Christmas for a post,then drafted G.Williams.
|
|
Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 1:06 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Gotta go with the players who work hard consistently to give them a chance to survive.
|
|
RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 6887 Location: Home
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 2:10 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Vivians has always been considered a first round pick. It's only a matter of when and where. When she wants to play, she's great. When she doesn't want to play, she loafs and Vic benches her. Could be she just gets bored when having to play the lesser/uncompetitive teams. Pro body and WNBA ready.
McCowans is not yet fully ready for the WNBA, as she needs another year of college training and experience under her belt. Hope she decides to stay in school another year.
Russell's as good as she's going to get. Have to take her pluses with her minuses. Big, strong offensive player. The rest is mediocre at best. Knees are a concern.
Narad should be a great player. Why she's not great, instead of just very good most of the time, is hard to figure out without inside knowledge.
|
|
WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12636 Location: Dallas , Texas
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 2:18 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Russell reminds me of a better offensive suited Ruth Riley .
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63960
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 2:18 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
If McCowan were to declare early, she should be an easy pick at #2. I'm sure Pokey sees a lot of Sylvia potential in her.
If both Stevens and McCowan declare early, Amber Stocks should be doing most of the back flipping and hoping for Stevens (as far as fit).
Early guess if both declare
1. Wilson
2. McCowan
3. Stevens
4. Williams (Stocks likes defense, right?.... and doesn't really need a small guard)
5. Mitchell (Future DB)
6. DeShields??? (Say it ain't so)
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
#Occasionalwnbafan
Joined: 01 Mar 2012 Posts: 1380
Back to top |
Posted: 01/22/18 4:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
zune69 wrote: |
Russell's stock went up in the 1st half,then back down in the 2nd......I don't know what to think at this point...Maybe Dallas can trade the #6 pk and Christmas for Stokes and Rogers.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Dallas traded Christmas for a post,then drafted G.Williams. |
This could work, I think Williams could start at the 3, play some back up 4, and keep Powers on the bench. Also Fred has been at a few Uconn games this year I believe. |
|
WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12636 Location: Dallas , Texas
Back to top |
|
zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8193
Back to top |
|
|
|