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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 8:03 pm    ::: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/22047372/former-tennessee-star-chamique-holdsclaw-uconn-associate-head-coach-chris-dailey-highlight-women-basketball-hall-fame-finalists

Elena Baranova
Ceal Barry
Rose Marie Battaglia
Chris Dailey
Mickie DeMoss
Chamique Holdsclaw
Vickie Orr
Katie Smith
Valerie Still
Tina Thompson



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 8:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IMO, I would put in Dailey and DeMoss at the same time, and I would put in Smith and Thompson at the same time. I don't think you can put both pairs in in the same year.

I also want to put in Elena Baranova, but I don't know how much of that is genuine respect for her work internationally and how much of it is because I f'n love me some Elena.

I will probably not be popular for this, but I'm leaning no on Holdsclaw. I recognize her mental health issues, but simultaneously recognize she wasn't that far from killing a teammate.

{edited with MOAR thoughts}

Going to wbhof.com, it looks like they've been putting in six people per class for the last 14 years, so it seems likely that this is their standard until and unless we've finally caught up with our history. Based on that, my ballot would be: Baranova, Dailey, DeMoss, Smith, Still, Thompson.



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Last edited by Queenie on 01/11/18 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Randy



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 8:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree on Holdsclaw.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 8:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
IMO, I would put in Dailey and DeMoss at the same time, and I would put in Smith and Thompson at the same time. I don't think you can put both pairs in in the same year.

I also want to put in Elena Baranova, but I don't know how much of that is genuine respect for her work internationally and how much of it is because I f'n love me some Elena.

I will probably not be popular for this, but I'm leaning no on Holdsclaw. I recognize her mental health issues, but simultaneously recognize she wasn't that far from killing a teammate.


There isn't a doubt in my mind that those two should be first ballot HOFers for this honor and Naismith.



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Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 9:05 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

Chris Dailey
Mickie DeMoss

Gonna start here...I got issues with putting in Assistants when there are eligible head coaches worthy who are not even on the ballot (Yes this is where you insert my annual Robin Selvig rant) I agree with Queenie not because she's queenie they should get in collectively because they are an extraordinary exception to the rule. DeMoss also gets push for being the spark that helped turn Kentucky into a Power. This is tough because I do think they deserve...but I vote eventually. Head coaches over assistant coaches players over assistant coaches. And at least put Selvig on the Ballot...Ditto Molly Bolin. but Likely will...so Me No...reality yes.

Elena Baranova IN...Said it for a while now...combo of NT and W numbers. Likely won't but I've been getting more loud for her for years...Belongs. Me: YES Reality No

Ceal Barry: Me No...left Colorado a shell of itself...was good not great better coaches eligible ahead of her. Me No Reality No

Rose Marie Battaglia: Only the best of the best of the best that is 1...UNO...Singular Sensation...should be repping HS and Juco...that is filled...Me No: Reality Eventually

Chamique Holdsclaw: Do you forgive? Numbers are numbers and she HAS the numbers. I get the mental illness, I do not belittle Mental Illness, as someone who needed the couch. I do not belittle mental illness. But there are some things that she has done that...give pause...Serious pause.

From a basketball standpoint do you forgive the way she walked off the Sparks.

From a human life standpoint do you forgive her for using a 9MM pistol as a lighter.

I do at a point. That point is once Catchings is eligible and voted in...not on this class. Me: Eventually Reality: Eventually (but likely more next year)

Vickie Orr: Victim of the Chasm sadly...those nearly 20 years between the WBL and the ABL/WNBA. Great player but we'll never know truly how much because she never got the shot to show it. Me: no Reality: You may need a veterans committee but for now...No Molly Bolin...no room for players like this.

Katie Smith: In...College, ABL, W, NT, check check check check. No brainer in this regard, See my Naismith post for more. Me In Reality May get usurped by Holdsclaw but she belongs in

Valerie Still: Falls down the Chasm as well, but not as badly. I do think she has a time but this year is just too strong. Me: Eventually Reality: Borderline

Tina Thompson: IN. No question, last of the founders not in...belongs to be both halls the same year...was a Rock of the W...NT standout, underrated but very good in college...Me In Reality In

Me says 3: Baranova Thompson Smith Reality 4 possibly 5: yes I know they've been getting 6 a year but I'm using a high bar.

The 2 assistants, Thompson Smith and possibly holdsclaw...If they do go 6 I'll be appeased with Baranova and not irked with Still

STILL

WHY NO ROBIN SELVIG EVEN BEING CONSIDERED

WHY NO MOLLY BOLIN EVEN BEING CONSIDERED



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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 9:10 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:

Rose Marie Battaglia: Only the best of the best of the best that is 1...UNO...Singular Sensation...should be repping HS and Juco...that is filled...


Does that mean only one player, one college coach, etc.? Because all those spots are filled also.

Also, the WBHOF does not have a character clause like the baseball HOF does.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
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Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 9:32 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:

Rose Marie Battaglia: Only the best of the best of the best that is 1...UNO...Singular Sensation...should be repping HS and Juco...that is filled...


Does that mean only one player, one college coach, etc.? Because all those spots are filled also.

Also, the WBHOF does not have a character clause like the baseball HOF does.


Fair point but doesn't change my Mind on Battaglia...divisions are divisions for a reason...Do believe they should be considered but the bar should be extraordinary...certainly in this strong year.

To me character is an Implicit clause in all sports...and well I can think of ONE major person who isn't even thought of despite coaching numbers that scream HOF which is strictly character (Portland) but that is an extreme example...and I am not saying she doesn't belong in...I just have pause using a high bar in a loaded class...Yes character Explicit in Baseball (tho John McGraw is in so yeah...and don't start on Yawkey who bought his way in (and was an abhorrent racist even for his era))

I do think with the classes of 6 Holdsclaw gets in...I'd wait a year...the numbers are obvious...its everything else that needs scrutiny



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/11/18 11:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Smith, Thompson and Holdsclaw.
Youth Coach



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 7:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Katie Smith should be an automatic check mark. Period.
pilight



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 8:37 am    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

Elena Baranova. Marginal, IMO, but considering who else is in and their determination to have six inductees every year she's all but a lock.

Ceal Barry. A ridiculous choice. She's not the best eligible coach by a longshot. If you're going to get in as a major conference D-I coach, show me some F4s.

Rose Marie Battaglia. Much as I admire the WBHOF's efforts to recognize and celebrate the lower levels, this is going a bit too far.

Chris Dailey
Mickie DeMoss I vote no on assistants as HOFers.

Chamique Holdsclaw. On court she's as big a no-brainer pick as there's ever been. Off court, she's had issues. I would put her in.

Vickie Orr. Maybe she would have been better as a pro. Looking at her college and Team USA career, I'd give a hard no.

Katie Smith. We've covered this before.

Valerie Still. Had a long and impressive Euroleague career to go with her great college numbers. Borderline, but I'd say yes.

Tina Thompson. The most qualified person on the list.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 10:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Baranova was MVP of the World Championships in 1998 even though the U.S. won the gold.

A fabulous player ...

But how much does, or should, international play count?



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 10:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
But how much does, or should, international play count?

Considering the place calls itself the WBHOF, not the USWBHOF, it should count for plenty.



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Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 12:59 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Elena Baranova. Marginal, IMO, but considering who else is in and their determination to have six inductees every year she's all but a lock.

Ceal Barry. A ridiculous choice. She's not the best eligible coach by a longshot. If you're going to get in as a major conference D-I coach, show me some F4s.

Rose Marie Battaglia. Much as I admire the WBHOF's efforts to recognize and celebrate the lower levels, this is going a bit too far.

Chris Dailey
Mickie DeMoss I vote no on assistants as HOFers.

Chamique Holdsclaw. On court she's as big a no-brainer pick as there's ever been. Off court, she's had issues. I would put her in.

Vickie Orr. Maybe she would have been better as a pro. Looking at her college and Team USA career, I'd give a hard no.

Katie Smith. We've covered this before.

Valerie Still. Had a long and impressive Euroleague career to go with her great college numbers. Borderline, but I'd say yes.

Tina Thompson. The most qualified person on the list.


Agree about barry big time...there are at least 4 coaches who are eligible not on the ballot above her...and im not even counting portland due to off court controversy...lowest common denominator is grentz imho....shes well behind grentz...crap id vote harry over barry and you know how critical i am of harry



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 1:28 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
Chamique Holdsclaw: Do you forgive? Numbers are numbers and she HAS the numbers. I get the mental illness, I do not belittle Mental Illness, as someone who needed the couch. I do not belittle mental illness. But there are some things that she has done that...give pause...Serious pause.

From a basketball standpoint do you forgive the way she walked off the Sparks.

From a human life standpoint do you forgive her for using a 9MM pistol as a lighter.

I do at a point. That point is once Catchings is eligible and voted in...not on this class. Me: Eventually Reality: Eventually (but likely more next year)


Let me introduce you to Lawrence Taylor, former NFL player and first-ballot Hall of Fame inductee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Taylor#Drugs,_alcohol,_and_personal_problems


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 1:40 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
Agree about barry big time...there are at least 4 coaches who are eligible not on the ballot above her...and im not even counting portland due to off court controversy...lowest common denominator is grentz imho....shes well behind grentz...crap id vote harry over barry and you know how critical i am of harry


A partial list of coaches who have more wins and a higher winning percentage in D-I than Ceal Barry and aren't in the WBHOF...

Lynne Agee
Lisa Bluder
Kevin Borseth
Doug Bruno
Tony Cross
Elaine Elliott
Bill Fennelly
Joe Foley
Mike Granelli
Joanne P McCallie
Joe McKeown
Wes Moore
Rene Portland
Gordy Presnell
Robin Selvig
Bob Spencer
Lisa Stone



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 17183
Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 01/12/18 2:08 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
Agree about barry big time...there are at least 4 coaches who are eligible not on the ballot above her...and im not even counting portland due to off court controversy...lowest common denominator is grentz imho....shes well behind grentz...crap id vote harry over barry and you know how critical i am of harry


A partial list of coaches who have more wins and a higher winning percentage in D-I than Ceal Barry and aren't in the WBHOF...

Lynne Agee
Lisa Bluder
Kevin Borseth
Doug Bruno
Tony Cross
Elaine Elliott
Bill Fennelly
Joe Foley
Mike Granelli
Joanne P McCallie
Joe McKeown
Wes Moore
Rene Portland
Gordy Presnell
Robin Selvig
Bob Spencer
Lisa Stone


in 22 years at Colorado, the best finish her team ever had was the Elite Eight, which she accomplished on three occasions.

How many college coaches in the WBHOF have never made an NCAA Final Four (not counting coaches who pre-dated the NCAA Tournament or who made a Final Four or won a title before the NCAA existed for WBB)?

As an aside, Joanne P. McCallie has made at least the Elite Eight five times (once at MSU, four times at Duke), with one Final Four (national-runner up in 2005, with MSU). Her overall record and conference titles far surpass Ceal Barry.


dtsnms



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 2:14 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
Agree about barry big time...there are at least 4 coaches who are eligible not on the ballot above her...and im not even counting portland due to off court controversy...lowest common denominator is grentz imho....shes well behind grentz...crap id vote harry over barry and you know how critical i am of harry


A partial list of coaches who have more wins and a higher winning percentage in D-I than Ceal Barry and aren't in the WBHOF...

Lynne Agee
Lisa Bluder
Kevin Borseth
Doug Bruno
Tony Cross
Elaine Elliott
Bill Fennelly
Joe Foley
Mike Granelli
Joanne P McCallie
Joe McKeown
Wes Moore
Rene Portland
Gordy Presnell
Robin Selvig
Bob Spencer
Lisa Stone


How is Doug Bruno not in the WBHOF? His innovative approach is enough to merit it.


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 2:24 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
How many college coaches in the WBHOF have never made an NCAA Final Four (not counting coaches who pre-dated the NCAA Tournament or who made a Final Four or won a title before the NCAA existed for WBB)?


Marian Washington

Sue Gunter didn't make a F4 until her last season, when Pokey Chatman was running the team. Gunter wasn't even on the sidelines for most of that season.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 2:31 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

dtsnms wrote:
pilight wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
Agree about barry big time...there are at least 4 coaches who are eligible not on the ballot above her...and im not even counting portland due to off court controversy...lowest common denominator is grentz imho....shes well behind grentz...crap id vote harry over barry and you know how critical i am of harry


A partial list of coaches who have more wins and a higher winning percentage in D-I than Ceal Barry and aren't in the WBHOF...

Lynne Agee
Lisa Bluder
Kevin Borseth
Doug Bruno
Tony Cross
Elaine Elliott
Bill Fennelly
Joe Foley
Mike Granelli
Joanne P McCallie
Joe McKeown
Wes Moore
Rene Portland
Gordy Presnell
Robin Selvig
Bob Spencer
Lisa Stone


How is Doug Bruno not in the WBHOF? His innovative approach is enough to merit it.


Not enough on-court success? Forget Final Fours, he has never been to an Elite Eight. He has made the Sweet Sixteen four times - out of 29 years.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 5:59 pm    ::: Re: WBHOF finalists Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
Chris Dailey
Mickie DeMoss

Gonna start here...I got issues with putting in Assistants when there are eligible head coaches worthy who are not even on the ballot (Yes this is where you insert my annual Robin Selvig rant) I agree with Queenie not because she's queenie they should get in collectively because they are an extraordinary exception to the rule. DeMoss also gets push for being the spark that helped turn Kentucky into a Power. This is tough because I do think they deserve...but I vote eventually. Head coaches over assistant coaches players over assistant coaches. And at least put Selvig on the Ballot...Ditto Molly Bolin. but Likely will...so Me No...reality yes.

Elena Baranova IN...Said it for a while now...combo of NT and W numbers. Likely won't but I've been getting more loud for her for years...Belongs. Me: YES Reality No

Ceal Barry: Me No...left Colorado a shell of itself...was good not great better coaches eligible ahead of her. Me No Reality No

Rose Marie Battaglia: Only the best of the best of the best that is 1...UNO...Singular Sensation...should be repping HS and Juco...that is filled...Me No: Reality Eventually

Chamique Holdsclaw: Do you forgive? Numbers are numbers and she HAS the numbers. I get the mental illness, I do not belittle Mental Illness, as someone who needed the couch. I do not belittle mental illness. But there are some things that she has done that...give pause...Serious pause.

From a basketball standpoint do you forgive the way she walked off the Sparks.

From a human life standpoint do you forgive her for using a 9MM pistol as a lighter.

I do at a point. That point is once Catchings is eligible and voted in...not on this class. Me: Eventually Reality: Eventually (but likely more next year)

Vickie Orr: Victim of the Chasm sadly...those nearly 20 years between the WBL and the ABL/WNBA. Great player but we'll never know truly how much because she never got the shot to show it. Me: no Reality: You may need a veterans committee but for now...No Molly Bolin...no room for players like this.

Katie Smith: In...College, ABL, W, NT, check check check check. No brainer in this regard, See my Naismith post for more. Me In Reality May get usurped by Holdsclaw but she belongs in

Valerie Still: Falls down the Chasm as well, but not as badly. I do think she has a time but this year is just too strong. Me: Eventually Reality: Borderline

Tina Thompson: IN. No question, last of the founders not in...belongs to be both halls the same year...was a Rock of the W...NT standout, underrated but very good in college...Me In Reality In

Me says 3: Baranova Thompson Smith Reality 4 possibly 5: yes I know they've been getting 6 a year but I'm using a high bar.

The 2 assistants, Thompson Smith and possibly holdsclaw...If they do go 6 I'll be appeased with Baranova and not irked with Still

STILL

WHY NO ROBIN SELVIG EVEN BEING CONSIDERED

WHY NO MOLLY BOLIN EVEN BEING CONSIDERED


For such a long post, I agree nearly 100%. Agree 100% on Selvig, not quite as strong on Bolin. But I can't get on board with the assistants at all. DeMoss at least stepped out and started something at Kentucky. Sorry Chris, if you want to be an HOFer, you have to show that you can do something for yourself. So I would be irked if one or both get in. It would say that the World of Women's Basketball is basically just Knoxville and Storrs. Bad message.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 7:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

After commenting on this issue a few times I decided to go to the source (the WBHOF website) for some guidance on the basis for nominating/selecting individuals for the Hall of Fame. Even though I have been to the Hall of Fame I was unaware of the various categories or requirements for nominations. There are 8 separate categories:

Official
Player
International Player
Veteran Player
Coach
Veteran Coach
Contributor
Team/League Trailblazer

Most of these categories have some specific requirements, but the category of Contributor is intentionally vague.

"In order to be considered in the contributor category, the nominee must have significantly impacted the game of women's basketball. **Assistant coaches may be considered."

I don't know when the ** comment was added, but I suspect it was added rather recently, because neither DeMoss nor Dailey would qualify under the Coach category, which is limited to head coaches. From my standpoint the category of contributor is appropriate for someone like Mel Greenberg for his decades of coverage of Women's Basketball. It would be appropriate for a WNBA commissioner or an administrator. If the Hall of Fame more clearly distinguished between the catgories throughout the voting process I might not have as much problem, but this seems like an end run on the rules. I am interested if anyone could shed any light on this for me,


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 7:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Went to the Internet Wayback Machine. The ** about assistants was there in November of 2016 but missing in June of 2016 There no crawls of the page between those two.



_________________
Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
Roll up a joint, or don't
Just follow your arrow
Wherever it points, yeah
Follow your arrow
Wherever it points
calbearman76



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 3126
Location: Carson City


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PostPosted: 01/12/18 10:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Went to the Internet Wayback Machine. The ** about assistants was there in November of 2016 but missing in June of 2016 There no crawls of the page between those two.


Thanks for that.


Randy



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PostPosted: 01/12/18 10:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Good detective work pilight!


Happycappie25



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Posts: 3952
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PostPosted: 01/12/18 11:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Went to the Internet Wayback Machine. The ** about assistants was there in November of 2016 but missing in June of 2016 There no crawls of the page between those two.


Hmmmmm sounds like this was already pre planned...I see both sides...and these are the only two assistants id even look at without laughing out the door (Warlick was put in as a player)

There is some precident...Naismith put in Tex Winter mostly for his work with the Bulls as the creator of the triangle as phil's assistant/consultant...but he did have a career with K State before then.

I certainly dont disagree with those scoffing at the idea of assistants getting in...I only put them in in a ballot of 6 in my personal ballot of 3, they are not in.

I basically more said they will likely get in even if this is controversial.

Dailey has been getting a lot of push from geno the last few years...DeMoss does have her sparking what became a very powerful program (Until very recently) in kentucky and also got that fanbase activated and booked marquee games at rupp.

It seems this note and its timing says this has been planned and planned for a while...and Again...Selvig and many others on this list (I thought Bruno DID get in...lol oops yes he belongs...) Belong over assistants (and then dont start on Ceal Barry)

But yes halls of fame are for the best players and leaders...assistants by definition are not the leaders...they are the assistants.

Change my mind...too many good head coaches not in to consider assistants, even if they are the 2 best ever.



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