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First charges filed in Mueller investigation
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mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 12/17/17 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


(Meanwhile, it's actually the Clinton campaign/DNC/Fusion GPS who actually "colluded" with Russians to affect the election.)



Laughing

Out of curiosity, is it your position that the Clinton campaign colluded with Russia to help Trump get elected?



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 12/17/17 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Too slowly. Trump has become cover for every bad thing that is happening in the world including the many sins of the media and the Democrats.

Listen. I don't know how this is going to sound to some of you. But hear this. Yesterday, on CNN, the most trusted name in news, it was literally all Omarosa, all day. And night. So there's the Trump administration, and hopefully they're going to be gone soon. But we've had CNN and all the others for decades. I remember not so long ago CNN covered NOTHING .... NOT ONE THING... but a missing airplane FOR AT LEAST A SOLID MONTH.

THERE IS NO HOPE! And it's got nothing the fuck to do with Donald Trump! Except it's all part of this massive clusterfucking of our democracy of which the news media plays a central role which enabled Trump to rise in popularity and to win the presidency.

I personally can't wait for the historic show that Trump's removal will be. Just months ago I was warning that we shouldn't want that by a long shot. But we are well down that road now, and it IS already, as I thought, so bad that the only hope is that it ends quickly and then we can just enjoy the spectacle for a minute before the whole thing gets so sickening we'll all be watching fucking curling on ESPN to detox.

Then, after it's all over, a plane will go missing. And then you're going to know or be reminded how fucked up it really is even without Donald Trump running the country.



Agree, Trump is a result of this crap, not the beginning. People get information from the media, and you can't trust the media.

Got a giggle out of CNN being the most trusted news station..Razz



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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 12/19/17 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:


(Meanwhile, it's actually the Clinton campaign/DNC/Fusion GPS who actually "colluded" with Russians to affect the election.)



Laughing

Out of curiosity, is it your position that the Clinton campaign colluded with Russia to help Trump get elected?


Sneaky girl.

What are now undisputed public facts (not just my position) are that:

-- The Clinton campaign and the DNC, beginning in April 2016, jointly paid up to $12 million to Fusion GPS to have Michael Steele create the "Trump Dossier" as political opposition research.

-- The most salacious (and debunked) allegations in that document are attributed to Russian sources, often within the document itself.

-- Fusion GPS then gave the Trump Dossier to the FBI and leaked it to media sources, one of which published it in full.

In short, and skipping over three layers of cutouts, the Clinton campaign admittedly obtained dirty and phony information from Russian sources (likely for money paid by Steele) about Trump and some other people associated tangentially with his campaign (Michael Cohen, Carter Page).

Was this "collusion" with the Russians to defeat Trump with personal dirt? There is no crime of collusion, but it likely fits the lay term that's been tossed around in the press for 18 months.

The more serious criminal and national security issue is whether the FBI or Mueller used the Trump Dossier as the basis to get FISA warrants against members of Trump's transition team such as Flynn. That's what the FBI and DOJ are currently stonewalling Congress on.

My current position is that I don't think Russia helped anyone get elected or affected the election in any discernible way. It's my legal view, based on currently known facts, that neither Mueller nor anyone else could prove in a court of law, under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, that Russia in fact committed a campaign-related crime such as hacking. And if Mueller can't prove that, he can't prove any criminal conspiracy between Russia and either campaign.
GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 12/19/17 12:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 12/19/17 12:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:

My current position is that I don't think Russia helped anyone get elected or affected the election in any discernible way. It's my legal view, based on currently known facts, that neither Mueller nor anyone else could prove in a court of law, under the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, that Russia in fact committed a campaign-related crime such as hacking. And if Mueller can't prove that, he can't prove any criminal conspiracy between Russia and either campaign.

The word "criminal" keeps being thrown around. While Mueller is obviously looking for criminal acts, that is not his whole job. He is basically in charge of figuring out what exactly happened and when, and then reporting to congress with it. Which means he is also looking at abuses of power or "collusion" that might not be criminal but would still perchance be grounds for impeachment (which of course would be congress' call after he reports).

Also, not everything he finds needs to be provable "beyond a reasonable doubt" since a lot of his job is not about obtaining criminal convictions. When it comes to impeachment, since it is not about sending someone to prison, the standard is that of the civil courts "preponderance of the evidence".



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/28/17 10:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/trump-interview-mueller-russia-china-north-korea.html

Quote:
“There’s been no collusion. But I think he’s going to be fair,” Mr. Trump said of Mr. Mueller.



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