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For the WNBA, business isn’t as bad as it looks

 
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stever



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PostPosted: 12/06/17 10:15 am    ::: For the WNBA, business isn’t as bad as it looks Reply Reply with quote

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/12/06/for-the-wnba-business-isnt-as-bad-as-it-looks/

Quote:
WNBA owners have an incentive to maintain that the league is in the red, Berri said, as it gives them better bargaining position when negotiating with players. If owners said the league was profitable, players would be better positioned to ask for more money, which would drive up the cost of running a franchise — and even profitable WNBA franchises run on tight margins.

The WNBA only pays players roughly 20 percent of total league revenue, or $11 million split between every player in the league, according to Berri’s studies. The NBA pays players about half of league revenue, or about $3 billion.



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 12/06/17 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We are in an era where women could rule. Seize the moment and take advantage of all the years of guilt of the manly men.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 12/06/17 11:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this , Great read !



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/06/17 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Don't think that this article made a case for the headline.

"Analysts say the league is right where it should be". And yet those analysts are burdened with the fact that "concrete financial information is scarce". And analysts say that "When WNBA teams sell, the purchase price is rarely announced ... because the teams aren’t worth much in cash."

It quotes James Dolan who says he never made a profit and says prospects to do so are slim - and he's in the most populated metro area in the United States.

Then they quote Aswath Damodaran, a professor of finance at New York University (and an analyst?) , who claims that when the league started shrinking owners began to realize that - in some cases - "they didn't make a lot of money". Damodaran then speaks cryptically of "forces that are making it more pricey as a business" which are actually good because these unspecified forces will "make more people get interested".

Then after mentioning the success of the NCAA wbb tournament and Title IX, it says that "the league needs owners to remain patient and to keep pumping resources into products that will make the game more popular".

The article does make the "we are further along than NBA was 50 years ago" case, and it quotes college professor Dave Berri saying that the league has an incentive to claim it is unprofitable for contract negotiations. But the "a lot of time to grow" case only seems to work if you are growing, and an incentive to say you are unprofitable does not mean you are profitable - particularly when the sale price of teams goes unannounced since they "aren't worth much in cash"..


myrtle



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PostPosted: 12/06/17 4:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's a business. Businesses cook their books to pay the least possible tax. If it were truly totally unprofitable it's hard to believe a business person would continue in an ownership role for the goodness of his/her heart.



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josephkramer44



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PostPosted: 12/06/17 8:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A very contradictory article to say the least with very few numbers.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 12/07/17 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
If it were truly totally unprofitable it's hard to believe a business person would continue in an ownership role for the goodness of his/her heart.


They haven't, have they?

Is there another sport where in twenty years every original owner has dumped their franchise?

Most have just been fortunate to find someone new to replace them.


pilight



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PostPosted: 12/07/17 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Is there another sport where in twenty years every original owner has dumped their franchise?


The NBA. Formed in 1946-47 with 13 teams. Within 20 years, 10 of them folded and the other three changed ownership at least once.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/07/17 1:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is there another sport where in twenty years every original owner has dumped their franchise?


The NBA. Formed in 1946-47 with 13 teams. Within 20 years, 10 of them folded and the other three changed ownership at least once.


Wikipedia says it was 11 teams. in 1946-47, but maybe you are including some of the future merged teams from the other league.

Eastern Division

Washington Capitols
Philadelphia Warriors
New York Knicks
Providence Steamrollers
Boston Celtics
Toronto Huskies


Western Division

Chicago Stags
St. Louis Bombers
Cleveland Rebels
Detroit Falcons
Pittsburgh Ironmen

The interesting item from the Wikipedia article on the NBA is that while there were two existing pro leagues which had some of their teams in small markets and also played in places as small as high school gyms and hotel ballrooms, the BAA (what became the NBA) was formed to utilize large ice hockey arenas in big cities on days they would normally sit empty. So back then hockey was more popular than basketball.

If the NBA history is a guide, there is a good chance that the WNBA cities which lost teams, could get new versions in the future.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 12/07/17 4:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
the BAA (what became the NBA) was formed to utilize large ice hockey arenas in big cities on days they would normally sit empty. So back then hockey was more popular than basketball.


Maybe those were college or semi-pro arenas? The NHL started with four teams, and then from 1942 through 1967 they still only had six teams. I started watching around 1965-1966, so I remember the 6 team NHL and a 12 team NBA. My recollection of NY television in those days is that Roller Derby was on TV more than either the NBA or the NHL.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 12/07/17 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

if we're to judge expansion based in the NBA's history, the league didn't reach 12 teams(without contraction afterwards) until it's 21st season. By the NBA's 25th season, it reached 18 teams. And by it's 30th year the league reached 22 teams. Though I doubt the WNBA reaches even 20 teams by it's 30th year, I hope we get back up to 16 teams by then(2026) and possibly 24 teams by it's 50 anniversary(2046).

Dream scenario by 2046(*returning franchise):
NORTHEAST
New York Liberty
Connecticut Sun
Boston WNBA
Philadelphia WNBA

SOUTHEAST
Washington Mystics
Atlanta Dream
Nashville WNBA
Louisville WNBA

CENTRAL
Detroit Shock*
Indiana Fever
Chicago Sky
Cleveland Rockers*

MIDWEST
Kansas City WNBA
Minnesota Lynx
Oklahoma City WNBA
Denver WNBA

SOUTHWEST
Houston Comets*
Dallas Wings
Phoenix Mercury
Los Angeles Sparks

NORTHWEST
Sacramento Monarchs*
San Francisco WNBA
Portland Fire*
Seattle Storm



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/07/17 5:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
tfan wrote:
the BAA (what became the NBA) was formed to utilize large ice hockey arenas in big cities on days they would normally sit empty. So back then hockey was more popular than basketball.


Maybe those were college or semi-pro arenas?


I guess so. Or they were actually built for reasons other than ice hockey. One was built in 1890.

Eastern Division

Washington Capitols - Uline Arena - capacity 7,000 - built 1941
Philadelphia Warriors - Philadelphia Arena - capacity 7,000 - built 1920
New York Knicks - Madison Square Garden - capacity 16,000 - built 1925
Providence Steamrollers - Rhode Island Auditorium - capacity 5,300 - built 1926
Boston Celtics - Boston Arena - capacity 5,900 - built 1910
Toronto Huskies - Maple Leaf Gardens - capacity 15,000 - built 1931


Western Division

Chicago Stags - Chicago Stadium - capacity 18,676 - built 1929
St. Louis Bombers - St. Louis Arena - capacity 15,000 - built 1929
Cleveland Rebels - Cleveland Arena - capacity 10,000 - built 1937
Detroit Falcons - Detroit Olympia - capacity ?? - built 1927
Pittsburgh Ironmen - Duquesne Gardens - capacity 6,500 - built 1890


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 4:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
tfan wrote:
the BAA (what became the NBA) was formed to utilize large ice hockey arenas in big cities on days they would normally sit empty. So back then hockey was more popular than basketball.


Maybe those were college or semi-pro arenas? The NHL started with four teams, and then from 1942 through 1967 they still only had six teams. I started watching around 1965-1966, so I remember the 6 team NHL and a 12 team NBA. My recollection of NY television in those days is that Roller Derby was on TV more than either the NBA or the NHL.


Expansion happened in the NBA and the NHL between 1966 and 1968. In 1966 there were 9 teams in the NBA and 6 teams in the NHL, and only 3 cities (New York, Boston and Detroit) had both. The NBA added Chicago in the 1966-7 year and then added Seattle and San Diego (who later moved to Houston) in 1967-8. The NHL expanded from 6 teams to 12 teams in the 1967-8 season. Of the 3 cities that had both an NHL and an NBA team the NHL was far more popular in Detroit but was roughly equal in Boston and New York. By the early seventies Chicago and Philadelphia, which due to expansion both had teams in each league, were both hockey towns and Boston, without the success of the Celtics, had become such a hockey town that it had a minor league hockey team that outdrew the Celtics. On the other hand the Knicks were far more popular than the Rangers in New York. And outside of the Northeast and the Upper Midwest the NHL could not gain a foothold.


pilight



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 7:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
pilight wrote:
The NBA. Formed in 1946-47 with 13 teams. Within 20 years, 10 of them folded and the other three changed ownership at least once.


Wikipedia says it was 11 teams. in 1946-47, but maybe you are including some of the future merged teams from the other league.


Two teams folded before the first season even started.

The current NBA has plenty of ownership turnover as well. The league had 29 teams when the WNBA was founded. 21 of them have changed owners since then. The league expanded by one team in that period, and that team has also changed owners.



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miller40



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Comparisons to the NBA at the same time in its growth don't seem that helpful at all given how different society, technology and communication is now.


Hawkeye



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 3:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 4:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
Comparisons to the NBA at the same time in its growth don't seem that helpful at all given how different society, technology and communication is now.


Exactly.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 4:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.

I'd be careful, though: your last sentence can be read as blaming the staff of teams' marketing/advertising departments. They may be terrific but not have nearly the budget and resources to produce outstanding results.



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 9:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Having looked at ticket prices from time to time, it seems the Liberty have some of the highest ticket prices among WNBA teams and they are one of the attendance leaders. I don't see much support for the notion they are doing a poor job of marketing, at least compared to their peers.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 10:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Having looked at ticket prices from time to time, it seems the Liberty have some of the highest ticket prices among WNBA teams and they are one of the attendance leaders. I don't see much support for the notion they are doing a poor job of marketing, at least compared to their peers.


I always found it hard to believe the Liberty weren't making a profit. I know their three years at the Prudential Center set them back and apparently were on the verge of getting sold then, but all of what you stated Randy should have made them a profit.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Randy wrote:
Having looked at ticket prices from time to time, it seems the Liberty have some of the highest ticket prices among WNBA teams and they are one of the attendance leaders. I don't see much support for the notion they are doing a poor job of marketing, at least compared to their peers.


I always found it hard to believe the Liberty weren't making a profit. I know their three years at the Prudential Center set them back and apparently were on the verge of getting sold then, but all of what you stated Randy should have made them a profit.


We don't know that the Liberty aren't making a profit. There are many ways for sports owners to cook the books, especially when a franchise has the same principal owner as the corporation that owns the arena where they play. To be clear, I'm not saying that the Liberty are making a profit. They may well be losing money. But I believe there's no way for us to genuinely know.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 11:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.



Why did he own the team for 21 years if he didn't care about making money for himself or others and didn't care about women's basketball and didn't care about women's sports in general?


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 12/08/17 11:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.



Why did he own the team for 21 years if he didn't care about making money for himself or others and didn't care about women's basketball and didn't care about women's sports in general?


He's a bored rich guy who's never achieved anything himself, who's gotten everything from Daddy. Bored rich guys like toys. That's why a bunch of them are sports owners.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/09/17 10:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.



Why did he own the team for 21 years if he didn't care about making money for himself or others and didn't care about women's basketball and didn't care about women's sports in general?


He's a bored rich guy who's never achieved anything himself, who's gotten everything from Daddy. Bored rich guys like toys. That's why a bunch of them are sports owners.


Don't see how he can have no interest in women's basketball and yet owning a women's basketball team makes him less bored. Seems like you have to give him credit for something.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 12/09/17 1:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.



Why did he own the team for 21 years if he didn't care about making money for himself or others and didn't care about women's basketball and didn't care about women's sports in general?


He's a bored rich guy who's never achieved anything himself, who's gotten everything from Daddy. Bored rich guys like toys. That's why a bunch of them are sports owners.


Don't see how he can have no interest in women's basketball and yet owning a women's basketball team makes him less bored. Seems like you have to give him credit for something.


Sorry, but I don't have to give credit to bored rich guys for playing with their toys. I will reserve my credit for the coaches and players of the New York Liberty and the other WNBA teams. I have great respect for them.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 12/09/17 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.



Why did he own the team for 21 years if he didn't care about making money for himself or others and didn't care about women's basketball and didn't care about women's sports in general?


He's a bored rich guy who's never achieved anything himself, who's gotten everything from Daddy. Bored rich guys like toys. That's why a bunch of them are sports owners.


Don't see how he can have no interest in women's basketball and yet owning a women's basketball team makes him less bored. Seems like you have to give him credit for something.


Sorry, but I don't have to give credit to bored rich guys for playing with their toys. I will reserve my credit for the coaches and players of the New York Liberty and the other WNBA teams. I have great respect for them.


You are implicitly giving him credit for having interest in women's basketball, which is considered virtuous here. So it seems like you are complimenting him, if unintentionally.


Randy



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PostPosted: 12/09/17 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is interesting that fans often come to despise, or at least strongly dislike team owners with a few exceptions for the teams that win championships. Most WNBA owners are rich people who whether bored or vain want to have a sports team to run. Corporate owners are much more oriented to making a profit off of the team, or to merge it into a larger overall strategy (e.g. the Sun and Stars being owned by casino operators.) Corporate owners may be quicker to dump a team that isn't meeting expectations than vain, bored rich guys.



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PostPosted: 12/09/17 2:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:
If Dolan coudn't make money on the Liberty in New York, he wasn't trying very hard. A team in a large market like New York, Chicago, LA, or even Houston and Phoenix has the population and resources to make a profit....the team just has to give a damn and market themselves to the city. WNBA teams fail because the teams marketing/Advertising departments fail.


Why would the hideous Jimmy Dolan try hard to make money on the New York Liberty? Because he needs that money? No. Because he cares about MSG stockholders? No. Because he cares about women's basketball or women's sports in general? No.



Why did he own the team for 21 years if he didn't care about making money for himself or others and didn't care about women's basketball and didn't care about women's sports in general?


He's a bored rich guy who's never achieved anything himself, who's gotten everything from Daddy. Bored rich guys like toys. That's why a bunch of them are sports owners.


Don't see how he can have no interest in women's basketball and yet owning a women's basketball team makes him less bored. Seems like you have to give him credit for something.


Sorry, but I don't have to give credit to bored rich guys for playing with their toys. I will reserve my credit for the coaches and players of the New York Liberty and the other WNBA teams. I have great respect for them.


You are implicitly giving him credit for having interest in women's basketball, which is considered virtuous here. So it seems like you are complimenting him, if unintentionally.


LOL. This is my last comment in this exchange, tfan. Why is it so essential to you to put words in my mouth that I obviously don't believe? If you want to praise slimy Jimmy Dolan, go for it.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she has served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships.
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