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The fate of the Liberty: Where to play in New York
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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks for the geography lesson, Glenn -- much appreciated by this Left Coaster.

The issues seem to be the rent, and the potential lost opportunities for the arena, though maybe it's possible Dolan is selling the MSG dates along with the team. If so, it would be even more surprising that a buyer hasn't emerged, and in fact, very depressing.

So on the one hand, I'm hoping the Liberty stay at MSG, and on the other, I'm hoping that the main difficulty getting a buyer is finding a place to play.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I absolutely believe The Liberty would thrive in Brooklyn at the Barclay center. If the rent is cheaper, and we get some owners with deep pockets doing it for love and/or vanity and Barclay center gets on board seeing the fans from the Liberty on slow week nights or weekend matinee games that would not conflict with concerts or the like as a boon and could possibly even get those fans to return for other Barclay related events and the adjacent shopping district and community benefit from bringing those 5-10 thousand additional consumers it could be great for all interest.

I don't even think it is out of the question that some MSG/NBA related people (ex or current players) get involved in the new ownership group and they find a way to no longer be owned by MSG but still get to play there at a reduced rental rate playing in the least desirable or competitive dates for the arena.

I still think there has to be some out of the box location in the boroughs that may not be a traditional basket ball arena but could be converted in some way to host the Liberty games and accommodate 5-7 thousand fans.

I know in the other thread I brought up college arenas and they were pretty much ruled out but I feel like NYU could have some sort of venue that could house events that might be under utilized in the Summer, NYU has pretty much been snapping up real estate all over lower manhattan.

I can't remember if Hofstra, Brooklyn College, or Long Island University (I think that is what it is called and it is somewhere in Brooklyn) were discussed in that thread. Maybe they could use part or all of the Javits center it would take some creative re-configuration but it seems large enough (of course I don't know how financially viable it would be as an option or if it would be anything the owner of the javits center would be interested in but I'm just trying to come up with some creative solutions). Is there anything on City Island (I know Cirque de Sole and concerts take place there) that could work?


City Island? Wow! LOL. I love City Island, but have you ever gone there via public transportation? I don't own a car. From midtown Manhattan, it's a LONG, slow subway ride on the #6 train (a local) to the end in the Bronx. Then a bus ride from there. That's why I only go once a year. And there's nothing on that island that would come close to what the Liberty would need.

It's Madison Square Garden or the Barclay Center. Your "out of the box" speculations aren't realistic. NYU indeed has been expanding everywhere in New York City and around the world. But Coles Sports Center has been demolished, they're building a new sports center somewhere else, and their women's basketball team is currently playing home games in Hunter College's gym. Which would not be adequate for the Liberty, just like all the other college gyms you've mentioned.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.


I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.


This is a tangent, but is true. The Giants and Jets, who play exclusively in New Jersey, cling to the name "New York" because those are their historical names. But that is a geographic fraud, and many have criticized it. I'm not aware of any other pro team that permanently plays now, or permanently played in the past, in one state but whose name claims they are from another state.

For example, the pro basketball Nets started in NJ and were called the NJ Americans. They moved to the Long Island in 1968 and changed their name to the NY Nets. Then, in 1977, they moved back to NJ (Meadowlands) -- same place as the football "NY" Giants and Jets -- and were known as the NJ Nets until 2012, when they moved to Barclay's in Brooklyn. They took the name Brooklyn Nets, rather than a return to NY Nets, in the tradition of the Dodgers, who were always the Brooklyn Dodgers not the NY Dodgers.

The Nets have been nomenclaturally honest and accurate throughout their history, unlike the the fake name Giants and Jets. So should the Liberty if they move to another state.
root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think from a league perspective that sponsors are all that interested in where the New York franchise plays as long as there is a team in the largest media market. As others have noted, New York has no football or baseball team in Manhattan. Venue location is only an issue for fans attending the game. For that purpose, there is no place in New York that compares to MSG. You're talking about a recently renovated arena that sits on top of a transportation hub in the most centrally located borough of the city. Even if people live elsewhere, a lot of them work in Manhattan. And because MSG is located over Penn Station, there is no location in Manhattan itself that is anywhere near as convenient.

Barclay Center appears to be the next best choice, followed by Prudential Center, and then Nassau Coliseum. After that, you'd have to really downsize in capacity and forgo a large chunk of your potential attendance (40%-50%). If management is willing to do that, then there might be some creative options elsewhere in Manhattan. Dolan might let them use Radio City again. Or they could possibly reconfigure the 69th Regiment Armory or Pier 94 for basketball. Both spaces claim to seat up to 5,000 people, although I don't know if they could do it around a basketball court. Other than that, you'd have to get radical. Play outdoors in a stadium? Back to the National Tennis Center? We already mentioned playing on the Intrepid or some other floating vessel. I've always liked the way Cirque du Soleil can just come to town and set up a tent. Their largest tent seats 2600. Maybe you can find an engineer to figure out how to combine four tents to seat 10,000. Then, you'd have to find someplace where you could situate such a large footprint. The only one I can think of in Manhattan is Central Park. Squeezing it into the Sheep Meadow is a possibility, but it would definitely fit on the Great Lawn with lots of room to spare. Maybe we can bring back Simon & Garfunkel and use the Liberty as the opening act. Laughing I know a big tent in Central Park sounds wild, but if you're thinking outside the box, it's at least an idea with some basis in reality. Given the political leanings of this city, I can see the government approving 23 dates (max including playoffs) in Central Park to support the cause of women's basketball. They might even be able to use the tent for their own events, in which case you've got the basis for a partnership. Obviously, this is not something we can do for the coming season. It's more of a long-term idea.

In the short run, it's unavoidable that the Liberty are going to lose fans if they move from MSG. The question is whether you can replace them with new fans. It didn't happen in Newark, but maybe that was because everyone knew it was only a temporary arrangement. Perhaps New Jersey residents would have embraced the Liberty more if it was really their team. Also, maybe existing fans would have made more of an effort to get out there if they thought it was the Liberty's permanent home. I confess I had that "wait it out, they'll be back" attitude and never schlepped out to Newark. If they move somewhere permanently, I'll likely attend at least a couple of games each year. So, if the Liberty relocate to a place like Barclay Center, maybe you retain more fans than expected. And hopefully, you have better success acquiring new fans to replace those that you lost.



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.


I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.


This is a tangent, but is true. The Giants and Jets, who play exclusively in New Jersey, cling to the name "New York" because those are their historical names. But that is a geographic fraud, and many have criticized it. I'm not aware of any other pro team that permanently plays now, or permanently played in the past, in one state but whose name claims they are from another state.

For example, the pro basketball Nets started in NJ and were called the NJ Americans. They moved to the Long Island in 1968 and changed their name to the NY Nets. Then, in 1977, they moved back to NJ (Meadowlands) -- same place as the football "NY" Giants and Jets -- and were known as the NJ Nets until 2012, when they moved to Barclay's in Brooklyn. They took the name Brooklyn Nets, rather than a return to NY Nets, in the tradition of the Dodgers, who were always the Brooklyn Dodgers not the NY Dodgers.

The Nets have been nomenclaturally honest and accurate throughout their history, unlike the the fake name Giants and Jets. So should the Liberty if they move to another state.


Yes, it's a "geographic fraud" that the Giants and Jets use the name New York. Yes, some people have criticized that "geographic fraud." And 99% of the world, even 99% of the sports world, doesn't care a bit. Just as they wouldn't care if the New York Liberty played outside the five boroughs but kept the New York name. The problem is that the venues outside the five boroughs are far less desirable for the franchise.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.


Last edited by Bob Lamm on 11/27/17 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I don't think from a league perspective that sponsors are all that interested in where the New York franchise plays as long as there is a team in the largest media market. As others have noted, New York has no football or baseball team in Manhattan. Venue location is only an issue for fans attending the game. For that purpose, there is no place in New York that compares to MSG. You're talking about a recently renovated arena that sits on top of a transportation hub in the most centrally located borough of the city. Even if people live elsewhere, a lot of them work in Manhattan. And because MSG is located over Penn Station, there is no location in Manhattan itself that is anywhere near as convenient.

Barclay Center appears to be the next best choice, followed by Prudential Center, and then Nassau Coliseum. After that, you'd have to really downsize in capacity and forgo a large chunk of your potential attendance (40%-50%). If management is willing to do that, then there might be some creative options elsewhere in Manhattan. Dolan might let them use Radio City again. Or they could possibly reconfigure the 69th Regiment Armory or Pier 94 for basketball. Both spaces claim to seat up to 5,000 people, although I don't know if they could do it around a basketball court. Other than that, you'd have to get radical. Play outdoors in a stadium? Back to the National Tennis Center? We already mentioned playing on the Intrepid or some other floating vessel. I've always liked the way Cirque du Soleil can just come to town and set up a tent. Their largest tent seats 2600. Maybe you can find an engineer to figure out how to combine four tents to seat 10,000. Then, you'd have to find someplace where you could situate such a large footprint. The only one I can think of in Manhattan is Central Park. Squeezing it into the Sheep Meadow is a possibility, but it would definitely fit on the Great Lawn with lots of room to spare. Maybe we can bring back Simon & Garfunkel and use the Liberty as the opening act. Laughing I know a big tent in Central Park sounds wild, but if you're thinking outside the box, it's at least an idea with some basis in reality. Given the political leanings of this city, I can see the government approving 23 dates (max including playoffs) in Central Park to support the cause of women's basketball. They might even be able to use the tent for their own events, in which case you've got the basis for a partnership. Obviously, this is not something we can do for the coming season. It's more of a long-term idea.

In the short run, it's unavoidable that the Liberty are going to lose fans if they move from MSG. The question is whether you can replace them with new fans. It didn't happen in Newark, but maybe that was because everyone knew it was only a temporary arrangement. Perhaps New Jersey residents would have embraced the Liberty more if it was really their team. Also, maybe existing fans would have made more of an effort to get out there if they thought it was the Liberty's permanent home. I confess I had that "wait it out, they'll be back" attitude and never schlepped out to Newark. If they move somewhere permanently, I'll likely attend at least a couple of games each year. So, if the Liberty relocate to a place like Barclay Center, maybe you retain more fans than expected. And hopefully, you have better success acquiring new fans to replace those that you lost.


The Central Park Conservancy has a lot of influence. They have dramatically reduced the number of big events in the park. I believe the thought of 10,000 fans coming for 17 to 23 Liberty home games each summer would drive them berserk.

Physically, it's possible. Geographically, it's a good location. But I don't believe it could ever happen. Women's basketball isn't popular enough for the de Blasio administration or any city administration to take on a fight against the Conservancy and all its rich, well-connected donors.



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 11/27/17 4:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

1. If a team wants to partake of the image, prestige and geographic truth of being a New York City team, only two of the five options are realistic: Madison Square Garden and, far behind in second place, Barclay's. You are not a New York CITY team if you are in New Jersey, Westchester or Nassau County.


I agree that Madison Square Garden and the Barclay Center are the only realistic options for the Liberty. But, while the Meadowlands surely wouldn't work for the Liberty, the New York Giants and New York Jets football teams seem to have survived and kept their names without meeting Mr. MacGrady's standard. So far no one has taken away the Giants' Super Bowl trophies won while they were playing outside the five boroughs.


This is a tangent, but is true. The Giants and Jets, who play exclusively in New Jersey, cling to the name "New York" because those are their historical names. But that is a geographic fraud, and many have criticized it. I'm not aware of any other pro team that permanently plays now, or permanently played in the past, in one state but whose name claims they are from another state.

For example, the pro basketball Nets started in NJ and were called the NJ Americans. They moved to the Long Island in 1968 and changed their name to the NY Nets. Then, in 1977, they moved back to NJ (Meadowlands) -- same place as the football "NY" Giants and Jets -- and were known as the NJ Nets until 2012, when they moved to Barclay's in Brooklyn. They took the name Brooklyn Nets, rather than a return to NY Nets, in the tradition of the Dodgers, who were always the Brooklyn Dodgers not the NY Dodgers.

The Nets have been nomenclaturally honest and accurate throughout their history, unlike the the fake name Giants and Jets. So should the Liberty if they move to another state.


Yes, it's a "geographic fraud" that the Giants and Jets use the name New York. Yes, some people have criticized that "geographic fraud." And 99% of the world, even 99% of the sports world, doesn't care a bit. Just as they wouldn't care if the New York Liberty played outside the five boroughs but kept the New York name. The problem is that the venues outside the five boroughs are far less desirable for the franchise.


Okay, Mr. Lamm, I think we are circling towards a creative common solution. The best alternatives in order are:

1. Stay in MSG.
2. If not possible, move to Barclay's.
3. If not possible, move out of state, but creatively in this way:

Dolan sells the franchise including all the players to the Connecticut Sun in return for no money but two other things. First, the Sun is allowed to call itself the New York Sun or the New York Liberty. In this way the WNBA retains a "New York" franchise (just like the Giants and Jets). The New York Liberty/Sun will become a powerhouse with 24 players to choose from, and win multiple WNBA titles. Second, the Liberty/Sun agrees to transport 5,000 fans for free by round trip helicopter from Manhattan to the Mohegan Sun every home game. Free buses would be more realistic, but much slower.
root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 6:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Clever idea, but MetLife Stadium is roughly 11 miles from Manhattan whereas the Mohegan Sun is 128 miles away. Even geographic fraud has its limits. Now, maybe if you move them to Bridgeport...

I remember when the Minnesota North Stars and the Cleveland Barons merged before the 1978-79 season, so there's a precedent for franchises combining. Too bad the new bulked-up North Stars still missed the playoffs. Smile



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tangentially, New Jersey is getting snippier about teams playing there but calling themselves New York- Red Bull had to go by NY/NJ, and the Riveters had to rebrand as the Metropolitan Riveters after the move to the Devils' practice rink.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 11/27/17 10:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Tangentially, New Jersey is getting snippier about teams playing there but calling themselves New York- Red Bull had to go by NY/NJ, and the Riveters had to rebrand as the Metropolitan Riveters after the move to the Devils' practice rink.


They started as the New York/New Jersey MetroStars, but it looks like the Harrison-New-Jersey-based team is called the New York Red Bulls now.


LibFan25



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


toad455



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LibFan25 wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


The lack of any information right now worries me. I mean no one has inside info about the Liberty and if there's anyone talking to Dolan about buying the team? The one positive is their social media outlets are always posting something and they're taking deposits for season tickets for next season.



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


The lack of any information right now worries me. I mean no one has inside info about the Liberty and if there's anyone talking to Dolan about buying the team? The one positive is their social media outlets are always posting something and they're taking deposits for season tickets for next season.


Right ive been waiting for Swin's words of encouragement to come to , but still nothing and its been about 2 weeks. She stated the next few weeks but DAMN how many weeks is a few SWIN ! Embarassed



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 7:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Barclays is their best option. I worry if they stay in NY, they'll be forced to play in Westchester.


at this point, i don't care where they play as long as they stay in NY.

i am a true New Yorker born and Raised, im just praying to hear some good news of someone saving our Libs...


The lack of any information right now worries me. I mean no one has inside info about the Liberty and if there's anyone talking to Dolan about buying the team? The one positive is their social media outlets are always posting something and they're taking deposits for season tickets for next season.


yeah its not lookin good, we would of heard something by now rumors, anything! it sucks!


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PostPosted: 11/28/17 8:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe it's dangerous to read into silence. It could mean disaster is ahead. It could mean that no sale is pending and Dolan will just keep the team for another season. It could mean that something terrific is in the works and will be announced tomorrow. Or after Jan. 1st. Why read some interpretation into silence based on no facts?



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 10:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They probably do have to decide something in December, even if it's just to push some of the free agency stuff to a little later in 2018. Otherwise you're starting the whole free agency process in January without knowing for sure whether the Liberty exist and if so, where they're playing. They've still got front office people to do things like make qualifying offers and sign players, but how can you sign free agents to a possible team in a city to be definitively decided later?



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toad455



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 10:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

and the schedule needs to be released likely by February. Hopefully we hear something soon.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
They probably do have to decide something in December, even if it's just to push some of the free agency stuff to a little later in 2018. Otherwise you're starting the whole free agency process in January without knowing for sure whether the Liberty exist and if so, where they're playing. They've still got front office people to do things like make qualifying offers and sign players, but how can you sign free agents to a possible team in a city to be definitively decided later?


I think that's probably right, but people are going much further in their speculations based on absolutely no facts. Just silence.



_________________
Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
pilight



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PostPosted: 11/28/17 11:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
They probably do have to decide something in December, even if it's just to push some of the free agency stuff to a little later in 2018. Otherwise you're starting the whole free agency process in January without knowing for sure whether the Liberty exist and if so, where they're playing. They've still got front office people to do things like make qualifying offers and sign players, but how can you sign free agents to a possible team in a city to be definitively decided later?


I think that's probably right, but people are going much further in their speculations based on absolutely no facts. Just silence.


Silence is SOP for the W



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PostPosted: 11/29/17 9:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree with Richyyy that the uncertainty should end fairly soon. Not only the schedule and free agency concerns, but the situation has to have a chilling effect on season ticket sales, and sponsorship. If the plan is to keep the Liberty operating for the 2018 season with or without a new owner, then MSG is hurting themselves by not making their intentions on that point clear. I read nothing in the original press release to suggest the team wouldn't keep going if they didn't find a buyer by any particular date but they need to make that more clear.


toad455



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PostPosted: 11/29/17 9:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Dolan could simply move the team to Westchester and maybe play a few games at MSG if there's space on the calendar(camp days, play-offs).



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