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LitePal
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 613
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Posted: 11/07/17 2:23 pm ::: |
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And good luck to you Pat. As someone who lived through the Kathy Olivier years, I can tell you firsthand that moral victories get very shallow after a while. If the program is not intended or expected to win, why should the student body support the program?
I can almost guarantee one thing. If USC with Trakh surpasses UCLA this season and/or next, some very serious questions will be asked.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66912 Location: Where the action is
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7842 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 11/07/17 2:52 pm ::: |
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Ouch!
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4040
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Posted: 11/07/17 3:13 pm ::: |
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That's the same IUP team that Notre Dame destroyed last week, 104-40. Obviously, Pitt is in trouble. Could Suzie McConnell-Serio be in trouble as well?
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 Posts: 1900 Location: Here
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:00 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Maybe they're not underperforming. Maybe they were just over-hyped.
Seriously, the UCLA senior class is very good, but they aren't such an overwhelmingly talented group as a whole that final fours were inevitable. A few other schools have equal or better or deeper talent.
So maybe the expectations and demands were just too high.
When considering coaching, I'd be more concerned about their frequently sloppy play than about their tournament finishes. |
If ESPN's Hoopgurlz is any credible measure, then UCLA is the most talented WCBB program in the nation. They had that one class, but they haven't been slouches in bringing in talent in any of the other cycles.
Currently UCLA has 10 former 5-star rated players per Hoopgurlz on their roster. All 10 were rated top 10 nationally at their respective positions. Six of those 10 were rated top 5. They also have a high 4-star Post in Rosenblum who was also rated 7th at her position in her class, making for a total of 11 players rated in the top 10 nationally at their positions, for this coming season.
6 of those players are either Srs, RS-Jrs, or Jrs. With that type of talent, they SHOULD be voted top of their conference, and they should win their conference going away. To only get a couple of Sweet Sixteens out of that talent is definitely underachieving, or Dan Olson is a hack.....
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:15 pm ::: |
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patsweetpat wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
When considering coaching, I'd be more concerned about their frequently sloppy play than about their tournament finishes. |
UCLA's turnover margin and A/TO% were tops in the P12 last season. UCLA's turnover percentage last season (13.3) was 6th-best in the entire nation. |
I wasn't basing that on stats nor was I using "sloppy" to refer only to turnovers.
Maybe I should have said "dumb" play, encompassing bad or forced shots, selfish shots, out of control play, out of position play, etc.
They just look pretty sloppy and undisciplined to me for stretches of play.
Yeah, it's just an "eyeball" test, but it's still more indicative to me of coaching than a simplistic measure of "they didn't advance far enough in the tournament". There's a million reasons for the later outcome, many of which have nothing to do with coaching.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:29 pm ::: |
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Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
That's the same IUP team that Notre Dame destroyed last week, 104-40. Obviously, Pitt is in trouble. Could Suzie McConnell-Serio be in trouble as well? |
You would think so, but she such a local institution, and who could they hire who would be better?
It's seems she has really fallen on her face recruiting.
Maybe the fix should start by making her stop hiring her family and get some new assistants and staff committed to recruiting.
Or maybe it's just a Pennsylvania thing, considering that PSU lost their exhbition too.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:36 pm ::: |
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Conway Gamecock wrote: |
If ESPN's Hoopgurlz is any credible measure, then UCLA is the most talented WCBB program in the nation. They had that one class, but they haven't been slouches in bringing in talent in any of the other cycles.
Currently UCLA has 10 former 5-star rated players per Hoopgurlz on their roster. All 10 were rated top 10 nationally at their respective positions. Six of those 10 were rated top 5. They also have a high 4-star Post in Rosenblum who was also rated 7th at her position in her class, making for a total of 11 players rated in the top 10 nationally at their positions, for this coming season.
6 of those players are either Srs, RS-Jrs, or Jrs. With that type of talent, they SHOULD be voted top of their conference, and they should win their conference going away. To only get a couple of Sweet Sixteens out of that talent is definitely underachieving, or Dan Olson is a hack..... |
No doubt UCLA has a lot of talent and depth this season. It's gonna be a very exciting year in Westwood, and they've got the opportunity to do some very special things, and to build on what has already been the best sustained run in UCLA womens' basketball history since the 1970s.
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LitePal
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 613
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:37 pm ::: |
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If you're also talking continued success, clearly Billie Moore had more of it than Close. Caldwell Fargas had a superior w/l record, even if you simply count the last three seasons of Close with her #1 class. Close's finishes in the Pac: T5, 3, 8, 6, T3, 4. Fargas: T4, 2, 2. Tournament: Close 2015: Quarter, 2016 Championship Game 2017: Semi. Fargas: 2010 Championship Game 2011 Championship Game
Jordin Canada and Monique Billings may sadly come out of this with no AA titles to their credit.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:41 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
patsweetpat wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
When considering coaching, I'd be more concerned about their frequently sloppy play than about their tournament finishes. |
UCLA's turnover margin and A/TO% were tops in the P12 last season. UCLA's turnover percentage last season (13.3) was 6th-best in the entire nation. |
I wasn't basing that on stats nor was I using "sloppy" to refer only to turnovers. |
Well, I hope you weren't using "sloppy" to refer *at all* to turnovers, as the statistics directly refute you.
But it appears that you're using "sloppy" to refer to things that cannot be statistically measured, which I guess makes your assertion simultaneously irrefutable and unconfirmable.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/07/17 4:49 pm ::: |
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Which of course is why I said I would be more concerned about their frequently sloppy play. That's my opinion.
You of course are free to have a different view and to consider them the most orderly, planned, disciplined team in the nation if you wish. Personally I don't see any evidence of that, but of course, as you say, such a proposition would "simultaneously irrefutable and unconfirmable."
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
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Posted: 11/07/17 5:11 pm ::: |
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LitePal wrote: |
If you're also talking continued success, clearly Billie Moore had more of it than Close. |
Billie Moore is a legend, but I was talking about continued success in the NCAA era. Moore coached UCLA for 11 seasons of NCAA basketball (between '82-'83 and '92-'93) and in those 11 seasons, UCLA went to the NCAA tournament a total of 4 times, featuring two appearances in the Sweet 16, and two outs in the 1st round. I'm guessing that would not be satisfactory to you today.
LitePal wrote: |
Caldwell Fargas had a superior w/l record, even if you simply count the last three seasons of Close with her #1 class. |
That's true. Wanna bet whether or not that ends up being the case when this season is completed and we can compare Caldwell's 3-year W/L record to UCLA's record in the 3 seasons spanning 2015-16 to 2017-18?
In any event, this remains the case: before this current run, UCLA had sent a women's basketball team to the NCAA Sweet 16 exactly three times in the program's entire history. If the Bruins should happen to make it to the Sweet 16 this current season (and, again, care to bet on that?), then this current team will have matched-- in 3 consecutive seasons-- what the UCLA women's basketball program had done in its entire NCAA tournament history, combined. I just can't find it in myself to mull that fact and conclude that the coach needs to be fired.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
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Posted: 11/07/17 5:12 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
You of course are free to have a different view and to consider them the most orderly, planned, disciplined team in the nation if you wish." |
Please cite specifically where I called them that. I can't seem to find it.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/07/17 5:20 pm ::: |
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patsweetpat wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
You of course are free to have a different view and to consider them the most orderly, planned, disciplined team in the nation if you wish." |
Please cite specifically where I called them that. I can't seem to find it. |
Did I say you did? I said you're free to view them that way if you choose. You certainly didn't seem to like my characterization.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32335
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Posted: 11/07/17 6:30 pm ::: |
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There are some teams that seem to play less organized and more of a flow offense (which in the extreme becomes 'street ball'). IMO UCLA is definitely more toward the flow end...which works reasonably well when you have at least two really good players who can make it work. At the other end of the spectrum is a Green Bay or Marist, whose success is thru extreme organization because they don't have the tip top athletes. Stanford is also toward the organized end of the spectrum. From my perspective as long as it works, it's not really a knock on a team. I do think that with the level of athletes involved both UCLA and Cal have under-achieved over a period of years, and some of that inevitably devolves onto the coach. Of course everyone has their own idea of under-achieving - my own is admittedly totally subjective. JMO
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
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Posted: 11/07/17 7:42 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
patsweetpat wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
You of course are free to have a different view and to consider them the most orderly, planned, disciplined team in the nation if you wish." |
Please cite specifically where I called them that. I can't seem to find it. |
Did I say you did? I said you're free to view them that way if you choose. You certainly didn't seem to like my characterization. |
Fair enough. And apologies for an unnecessarily snippy and sarcastic response. Definitely a bad habit of mine. Lemme tone myself down about a half shade and posit that there's a big space between "frequently sloppy play" and "the most orderly, planned, disciplined team in the nation." In my opinion, UCLA resides somewhere within that space.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3515
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Posted: 11/07/17 9:09 pm ::: |
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Tenn 121, Carson-Newman 76
Freshman look great, need some work on defense, but scored 76 of those points, and the team finally has some decent point guards. Westbrook and Davis are the real deal, Hayes is a speed demon, and KK played better than expected. Green is out with some minor injury so we didn't get to see her.
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 894 Location: NY
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Posted: 11/10/17 7:32 am ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Tenn 121, Carson-Newman 76
Freshman look great, need some work on defense, but scored 76 of those points, and the team finally has some decent point guards. Westbrook and Davis are the real deal, Hayes is a speed demon, and KK played better than expected. Green is out with some minor injury so we didn't get to see her. |
Watching the game, Westbrook is my favorite. great size Combo Guard can play the 1 and 2. Very smooth jumper, she's gonna be a star. That Hayes/Westbrook combo is gonna be dangerous for years to come, thanks to Hayes speed to created easy baskets.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12537 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 11/10/17 9:52 am ::: |
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LibFan25 wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Tenn 121, Carson-Newman 76
Freshman look great, need some work on defense, but scored 76 of those points, and the team finally has some decent point guards. Westbrook and Davis are the real deal, Hayes is a speed demon, and KK played better than expected. Green is out with some minor injury so we didn't get to see her. |
Watching the game, Westbrook is my favorite. great size Combo Guard can play the 1 and 2. Very smooth jumper, she's gonna be a star. That Hayes/Westbrook combo is gonna be dangerous for years to come, thanks to Hayes speed to created easy baskets. |
Wheres the game available to watch ? I could not find on UTsports.com just the postgame .
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011 Posts: 5153 Location: Denver
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Posted: 11/10/17 9:58 am ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
LibFan25 wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Tenn 121, Carson-Newman 76
Freshman look great, need some work on defense, but scored 76 of those points, and the team finally has some decent point guards. Westbrook and Davis are the real deal, Hayes is a speed demon, and KK played better than expected. Green is out with some minor injury so we didn't get to see her. |
Watching the game, Westbrook is my favorite. great size Combo Guard can play the 1 and 2. Very smooth jumper, she's gonna be a star. That Hayes/Westbrook combo is gonna be dangerous for years to come, thanks to Hayes speed to created easy baskets. |
Wheres the game available to watch ? I could not find on UTsports.com just the postgame . |
Replay is on ESPN3
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 894 Location: NY
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Posted: 11/10/17 10:33 am ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
LibFan25 wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Tenn 121, Carson-Newman 76
Freshman look great, need some work on defense, but scored 76 of those points, and the team finally has some decent point guards. Westbrook and Davis are the real deal, Hayes is a speed demon, and KK played better than expected. Green is out with some minor injury so we didn't get to see her. |
Watching the game, Westbrook is my favorite. great size Combo Guard can play the 1 and 2. Very smooth jumper, she's gonna be a star. That Hayes/Westbrook combo is gonna be dangerous for years to come, thanks to Hayes speed to created easy baskets. |
Wheres the game available to watch ? I could not find on UTsports.com just the postgame . |
Download WatchESPN app on your phone or any device you have and click women's basketball, then click replay SECN +
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