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Donna Karan Defends Weinstein; Anthony Bourdain Responds
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Luuuc



Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 10/12/17 10:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
By far the most important thing is that sexual assaulters get taken down. How that happens is only of secondary concern.
Until I understand the circumstances that led to individuals not being as loud as possible about it, I'm not going to throw anything their way. They aren't the rapists. They aren't where the scorn should be aimed right now. Who cares why they chose now. Better now than never. If more people pile on then it makes it all the more sad how large this all was, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen or wasn't serious. It just further proves how big a power imbalance there is.


Thanks for proving my point.

You assume that her tweets "proves how big a power imbalance there is." And that it's a good thing to "pile on".

Good to see that any notion of proof or due process are completely passe.

Frankly, it doesn't "prove" a damn thing.

McGowan is spouting off a lot. There is absolutely no way to know if this is true but far too many people are far too eager to assume it is.

Besides, no one was accused of being a "rapist" here. It's interesting that no one wants to deal with the very clear distinction I made between this and a violent attack. Guess that doesn't fit the desired narrative. Might as well throw Afleck into the same jail cell with Weinstein and Cosby. After all, someone says he grabbed her ass. He must be a rapist.


I'm quite happy to wait and see who ends up guilty of what out of all this. Based on who has said what so far, there's very little doubt in my mind, that's true. Also based on common sense and my life experiences with human nature.
So what if she is spouting off a lot. If only a fraction of what she is saying is true, then she has every right to have a lot of pent up frustration (to put it mildly) to get off her chest.
I don't get why you're so upset about the spouting. If she's making it all up then she will pay a big price for it when the justice system is done with her.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 10/12/17 10:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The reason no one in Hollywood reports this stuff is that it has been an accepted business culture there for 100 years. The casting couch is mostly a business deal, not necessarily involving sexual predation, assault or rape. Beyond the casting couch, sexual profligacy among Hollywood peers and groupies is seen as one of the perks of being in the entertainment business.

Weinstein, however, seems to have jumped even the huge Hollywood sexual immorality and sexual business deal sharks with a serious sexual addiction problem, a la Bill Clinton and John Kennedy.

We can see the sexual immorality culture in Weinstein's contract, which TMZ is reporting explicitly "allowed" him to engage in sexual improprieties as long as he reimbursed the company for its legal settlements.

Quote:
TMZ is privy to Weinstein's 2015 employment contract, which says if he gets sued for sexual harassment or any other "misconduct" that results in a settlement or judgment against TWC, all Weinstein has to do is pay what the company's out, along with a fine, and he's in the clear.

The contract says as long as Weinstein pays, it constitutes a "cure" for the misconduct and no further action can be taken. Translation -- Weinstein could be sued over and over and as long as he wrote a check, he keeps his job.


While it is true that concupiscence is embedded in human nature ever since Adam and Eve, I would strongly disagree that other companies and industries have anything like the casting couch and libidinous culture of Hollywood and the broader entertainment industry. Such activity was not tolerated in most of the organizations I've worked in for 50 years. In many of them, it was verboten for a supervisor to even date an employee in his direct reporting chain.


Last edited by GlennMacGrady on 10/12/17 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/12/17 10:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
By far the most important thing is that sexual assaulters get taken down. How that happens is only of secondary concern.
Until I understand the circumstances that led to individuals not being as loud as possible about it, I'm not going to throw anything their way. They aren't the rapists. They aren't where the scorn should be aimed right now. Who cares why they chose now. Better now than never. If more people pile on then it makes it all the more sad how large this all was, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen or wasn't serious. It just further proves how big a power imbalance there is.


Thanks for proving my point.

You assume that her tweets "proves how big a power imbalance there is." And that it's a good thing to "pile on".

Good to see that any notion of proof or due process are completely passe.

Frankly, it doesn't "prove" a damn thing.

McGowan is spouting off a lot. There is absolutely no way to know if this is true but far too many people are far too eager to assume it is.

Besides, no one was accused of being a "rapist" here. It's interesting that no one wants to deal with the very clear distinction I made between this and a violent attack. Guess that doesn't fit the desired narrative. Might as well throw Afleck into the same jail cell with Weinstein and Cosby. After all, someone says he grabbed her ass. He must be a rapist.


I'm quite happy to wait and see who ends up guilty of what out of all this. Based on who has said what so far, there's very little doubt in my mind, that's true. Also based on common sense and my life experiences with human nature.
So what if she is spouting off a lot. If only a fraction of what she is saying is true, then she has every right to have a lot of pent up frustration (to put it mildly) to get off her chest.
I don't get why you're so upset about the spouting. If she's making it all up then she will pay a big price for it when the justice system is done with her.

Yeah, I have no problem with her going after HW and anyone who directly enabled him, or anyone who she told her story to who didn't believe her back in the day. My only issue is when she goes after the people not directly involved in the ordeal just because they didn't take a stand against him earlier.

As you said quite well, "Until I understand the circumstances that led to individuals not being as loud as possible about it, I'm not going to throw anything their way. They aren't the rapists."



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/12/17 11:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:


I'm quite happy to wait and see who ends up guilty of what out of all this. Based on who has said what so far, there's very little doubt in my mind, that's true. Also based on common sense and my life experiences with human nature.
So what if she is spouting off a lot. If only a fraction of what she is saying is true, then she has every right to have a lot of pent up frustration (to put it mildly) to get off her chest.
I don't get why you're so upset about the spouting. If she's making it all up then she will pay a big price for it when the justice system is done with her.


Why? Because her "spouting" includes new accusations against new targets.

And, as I said, there's no risk and no downside to her. There never will be any proof or determination of guilt. She'll never have to make these allegations under oath or be cross examined. Even if some overzealous prosecutor wanted to go after Afleck's scalp to boost her career, the limitations period for simple battery ( which is all this would be) has run, as has the limitations period for a civil suit for simple battery. So Afleck will have no opportunity to defend himself and the chattering class on the View and the like will assume every accusation she makes should be treated as if written on a stone tablet given to Moses. It's just not right.

I have no sympathy for Afleck, but it's not right and it's not just. She can accuse anybody of anything today, and if people are just going to assume it's all true and defend her to the hilt without a scintilla of evidence, then this has simply devolved into the Salem Witch Trials.

By the way, there is plenty of evidence against Weinstein and Cosby. They are completely dissimilar.

Maybe it's time for people to re-read Miller's The Crucible.

BTW, if he did it, he may appologize to her as he did to someone else. That wouldn't change my objection to the manner in which people jumped to an assumption.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 4:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I love Emma Thompson's comments. Of course, why wouldn't I, she's basically saying everything I've been saying.

The British star, 58, said that behavior like Weinstein's is 'endemic to the system,' and something she has experienced with 'many' other men in similar positions over the years.

Asked if there were others in Hollywood like Weinstein, she said: ‘Of course, many, many...I spent my 20s trying to keep old men’s tongues out of my mouth.’

'What I find sort of extraordinary is that this man is at the top of a very particular iceberg... (At) the top of the ladder of is a system of harassment...

Thompson then went on to reveal that Weinstein is in no way the exception to the rule in the film industry,

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4975214/Emma-Thompson-calls-predator-Harvey-Weinstein.html#ixzz4vN5PtKXk

Shasa Alexander at an event tonight in Beverly Hills said, something very close to this. "It's unfortunate, but we still have a problem with the casting couch."

Rita Moreno, who looked amazing for her age, recalled being stalked by a big time producer and thinking her career was over because she rejected him.

Anyway. Other comments by a disappointing array of TV actresses did not even reach the scorn we see in the drivel from the bunch already posted in this thread. It was mostly about empowering women and a shot or two at both a) all industries and b) Donald Trump.

Dana Delaney, ever on the lookout for future hack TV projects, really stood out. I don't want to talk about men tonight. No talk about men. What a feminist she is!

Again, IMO, 99% of the comments coming out of Hollywood are all tellingly careful. Telling is almost an understatement. They bear the DNA of the legal profession and that of an industry trying to protect itself. Hillary Clinton's remarks were also particularly disgusting.

But Meryl Streep, I think, is the biggest disappointment and should be to all women, once they figure out what she was up to in her comments and what she could have said.

Meryl should be saying what Emma Thompson said. But shorter and better. Repeated four times. In that breathy disgusted taking-her-time Meryl Streep voice.

Tip of the iceberg.
Tip of the iceberg.
Tip of the iceberg.
Tip of the iceberg.

I really don't have anything else to add.


Or, better yet, "That's all."

That would have set off an atom bomb in this town. And it's the simple bareass naked fact. But, alas, this industry has been very very good to Meryl Streep.

Instead from Hollywood we get a list of talking points that would make Harvey's own lawyers proud. Probably their work, but hey, whatever. Try not to mention Harvey by name. Speak in the past tense. Recall his good works. Deflect from Harvey's problems and suggest that these are actually societal problems. (As if. Rolling Eyes)

Okay, so I mentioned something about the willing, which, I'm sorry to say, would amount to a substantial number of the beautiful young women who are trying to make it in Hollywood. My gut would say most but hey, that's just my opinion. There are an absolute ton of beautiful women in this world who will sell out their bodies for the right price. But for a chance for a break in Hollywood?

And so here is where things get complicated. Let's not even get into the situations where both parties are happy with the result. Because that happens a lot!

So my word of the moment is transactional. Because I see it everywhere in most every Hollywood celeb's response to this situation. It's there everywhere, IMO. It's ALL that's there, actually. The evidence that the industry and its legal and PR infrastructure has asked or assumed certain things on the part of anyone in the industry, and most specifically, anyone who would like to continue working in the industry, and those people have stayed in line, the line is a circle, and that circle is the entire film industry circling the wagons.

But I have problem with this idea of people not speaking out because they would lose their 'livelihoods' and that they might never work, or eat lunch for that matter, in this town again.

So what? Seriously. The entertainment industry in Hollywood is not the only way to make a living in this world. Although it is the focus of a hell of a lot of young people's ultimate hopes and dreams the idea that even those who are pursuing success here in Tinsletown are somehow unable to earn a livelihood elsewhere or have a future because of a vindictive Hollywood legal response to their making allegations against an important person in this industry is just... IDK... it just doesn't cut it as an excuse.

Especially when you consider how many women have packed up the Suburu and headed back to Kansas, and done just fine without all of this. Which is, of course, the vast majority of those who come here. Most hightail it out of town when the initial money runs out and many more as they come up against the realities of what is required in terms of getting a SAG card, some actual screen acting classes paid for, an agent, head shots, and then here comes the droves of men all promising that they're the right person to fuck to get anywhere. Some women are very lucky and have no horror stories. But most of this stuff is repellent to all but a few.

So those who have kept quiet down through the many decades do so because they're ambitious and tenaciously hanging onto their chances of having a successful career in Hollywood. It's not a valid excuse, IMO. It's GREAT that so many are now speaking out, I hope this is only the beginning. And I'm okay with them not speaking out because they were willingly engaged in a transaction with this industry that said they would keep their mouths shut for the chance of making it big here.

But don't, because you wanted to be a movie actress so bad you kept your mouth shut, now characterize it as being instead because you couldn't have earned a living had you spoken up. Come the fuck on.


Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 10/13/17 4:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
By far the most important thing is that sexual assaulters get taken down. How that happens is only of secondary concern.
Until I understand the circumstances that led to individuals not being as loud as possible about it, I'm not going to throw anything their way. They aren't the rapists. They aren't where the scorn should be aimed right now. Who cares why they chose now. Better now than never. If more people pile on then it makes it all the more sad how large this all was, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen or wasn't serious. It just further proves how big a power imbalance there is.


Thanks for proving my point.

You assume that her tweets "proves how big a power imbalance there is." And that it's a good thing to "pile on".

Good to see that any notion of proof or due process are completely passe.

Frankly, it doesn't "prove" a damn thing.

McGowan is spouting off a lot. There is absolutely no way to know if this is true but far too many people are far too eager to assume it is.

Besides, no one was accused of being a "rapist" here. It's interesting that no one wants to deal with the very clear distinction I made between this and a violent attack. Guess that doesn't fit the desired narrative. Might as well throw Afleck into the same jail cell with Weinstein and Cosby. After all, someone says he grabbed her ass. He must be a rapist.


What do you want as proof? Another public apology like Ben Afflick did to Hilarie Burton for grabbing her boob when she was a tv host for TRL when she was 19. Only then you believe those women Rolling Eyes Question



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 6:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:


What do you want as proof? Another public apology like Ben Afflick did to Hilarie Burton for grabbing her boob when she was a tv host for TRL when she was 19. Only then you believe those women Rolling Eyes Question


So then you're saying it IS exactly like the Salem Witch Trials.

Just so I understand.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 9:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

McGowan's Twitter suspension results from her putting someone's private phone number into one of her tweets, which violates Twitter terms of service.

So it has absolutely zip to do with "censoring" her, as of course the chattering class instantaneously concluded and chattered about. Need to boycott Twitter, of course, for it's "crime".

That this endless tirade of hers has simply become her 15 minutes of fame that she is going to milk to the max is evident from her broadside at Ryan Gosling. His heinous offense?

Well he put out a statement condemning Weinstein and supporting the women who have come forward, saying among other things

"“I want to add my voice in support of the women who have had the courage to speak out against Harvey Weinstein.

“Like most people in Hollywood, I have worked with him and I’m deeply disappointed in myself for being so oblivious to these devastating experiences of sexual harassment and abuse.”


But....horrors.... he had the temerity not to mention McGowan by name.

"You could at least do us the courtesy of saying our names.”


The gall of Gosling not to give her more publicity. Because, you know, it's all about her.

She's actually becoming a distraction to the real issues. But hey, a lot more people now have heard of Rose McGowan than ever did from her acting career. So I guess it's working.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jane Fonda: “It’s the entitlement of too many men, and it is epidemic. And when they’re famous and powerful like Harvey, it gets talked about.”

Other big news of the day, it appears that Harvey’s contract with his company had laid out a process for dealing with his sexual indiscretions. That’s incredible.

Also, the killing of the prosecution in NY is being tied to payments to the DA in NY by Harvey’s people.

And the NBC angle and how Ronan Farrow’s story that ended up in the New Yorker had been killed by like lol network president level people. They were sending what they had up to the executive offices for top dogs to sign off on, something that people in the news division have said is pretty much unheard of.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 10:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:


Other big news of the day, it appears that Harvey’s contract with his company had laid out a process for dealing with his sexual indiscretions. That’s incredible.



He is far from the first or only person with a track record of sexual harassment to have it spelled out what they will do about it, how future incidents will be addressed, the impact on their compensation, any other penalties, and potential termination .


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


Other big news of the day, it appears that Harvey’s contract with his company had laid out a process for dealing with his sexual indiscretions. That’s incredible.



He is far from the first or only person with a track record of sexual harassment to have it spelled out what they will do about it, how future incidents will be addressed, the impact on their compensation, any other penalties, and potential termination .


I believe you. It's still incredible.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 12:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


Other big news of the day, it appears that Harvey’s contract with his company had laid out a process for dealing with his sexual indiscretions. That’s incredible.



He is far from the first or only person with a track record of sexual harassment to have it spelled out what they will do about it, how future incidents will be addressed, the impact on their compensation, any other penalties, and potential termination .


I believe you. It's still incredible.


It's what you do when you're not willing to terminate someone today. You set up how you're going to deal with it if it happens again and make it easier to fire them if they violate the agreement. Might provide for counseling or the like as well.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
But I have problem with this idea of people not speaking out because they would lose their 'livelihoods' and that they might never work, or eat lunch for that matter, in this town again.

So what? Seriously. The entertainment industry in Hollywood is not the only way to make a living in this world.

Seriously? Confused

So someone who is good in their field of work should have to just go find a different career, for the reason of: there are rich powerful creeps running this field of work, and if you're not willing to pay whatever price they ask then clearly you just aren't good enough or don't want it enough. Basically you are the problem, not them.

And of course, let's then extrapolate that to every field of work.
Therefore, women, just shut up, ok. Stop your whining. We're actually getting quite tired of hearing it. Do you actually want employment or not? Well then just be some gross guy's fuck toy for a while, ok. Geez. Is that really such a big deal? I mean, someone out there is probably willing to do it. Therefore everyone should be willing to do it.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 4:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
But I have problem with this idea of people not speaking out because they would lose their 'livelihoods' and that they might never work, or eat lunch for that matter, in this town again.

So what? Seriously. The entertainment industry in Hollywood is not the only way to make a living in this world.

Seriously? Confused

So someone who is good in their field of work should have to just go find a different career, for the reason of: there are rich powerful creeps running this field of work, and if you're not willing to pay whatever price they ask then clearly you just aren't good enough or don't want it enough. Basically you are the problem, not them.

And of course, let's then extrapolate that to every field of work.
Therefore, women, just shut up, ok. Stop your whining. We're actually getting quite tired of hearing it. Do you actually want employment or not? Well then just be some gross guy's fuck toy for a while, ok. Geez. Is that really such a big deal? I mean, someone out there is probably willing to do it. Therefore everyone should be willing to do it.


No, Luuuc, I want them to speak up. lol. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I was making too oblique a point there regarding the livelihood aspect. If for any reason having to do with continuing on in your pursuit of a career in Hollywood you didn't speak up about being sexually harassed or offered a role or something in exchange for sexual favors then that was a transactional decision you made. You made the decision to remain silent so that you can continue on pursuing your career ambitions.

If they're speaking up now, fine. But the problem is all the many thousands that still aren't, for that same reason. And on it goes. So I don't want them doing that, not speaking up about all the ugly secrets of Hollywood. But this idea of not doing it because they had to continue to earn a livelihood is, in the vast majority of these incidents, a specious claim. I think something like only 18% of SAG/AFTRA members are actually working and making a living. It's a stunningly low number. Maybe even less than that. The rest wait tables and tend bar, etc., or do any number of other jobs around town.

Although, honestly, it IS their business. Whatever decisions they make regarding speaking up or not. Just like it's anyone's business if they fuck their way to the top.

I'm actually not knocking anyone in this life for not wanting to take on a shitload of trouble. And going after Hollywood on this point of the casting couch has been not just a losing proposition, but a punishing one as well.

I've personally had a great reason for suing someone here. A very unique (but pretty sucky) idea I had was stolen and made into a pay cable network movie. It was incredible. I came up with this thing in 1990. mrs jammer was real excited about it and wanted me to tell it to some friends. One was a childhood friend of hers from Aliquippa, where we're from. And the other two were the childhood friend's girlfriend and a friend of hers. The last two were from here. So we were in a cafe, Pastel in the Rodeo Collection. It was Cinco de Mayo. So I laid out the plot, characters, setting, everything, and this unique title, etc. Title and story were definitely unusual.

You know, I don't know who did this. Could have been someone from my table or someone listening in from the bar. My money, however, would be on one of the girls at our table. But someone took my shit to someone they knew and whoosh, there it went.

So anyway. Many years later, like in the mid-2000s, I wondered if anyone had ever made a movie with that unusual title and so I Googled it. And wow. There it was. Title, plot, setting, characters and very specific character dynamics and outcomes, every fucking thing. In the can and on the tube and definitely forgettable and forgotten more than a decade before I ever even knew what the fuck had happened. lol.

I have my original notes. Everything. But here's the deal. Even at 60 years old, I still have ambitions of my own. And here's what I know from 30 years in this town (first 10 here the only people I knew were actors, actresses, and comedians) and after having read practically every inside baseball Hollywood tell-all that's ever been published.

Don't introduce yourself to this industry with a lawsuit. lol.

Nobody that matters in this industry knows me. So here I come suing some sucky ass TV people from the 90s? For a schmaltzy story idea (my first) that I would have never EVER put out there anyway. So no way that was every going to happen. Point is I understand choosing your battles as well as keeping the road ahead clear and unencumbered. Don't get your name in Variety for the first and likely only time as the plaintiff in a lawsuit against the industry.

Certainly I'm not knocking women for choosing not to call the police or hire an attorney and sue a studio or a exec in the entertainment business and endure what this industry has ready and waiting should anyone dare to come forward.

You know, on the other side of all this speaking up or not speaking up is the question of WHERE and how these women were or are supposed to do that. And that's where law enforcement, industry oversight, things that like are required. But this really has to move well beyond the Harvey Weinstein and only the victims of his depravity and to the issue of the casting couch as it still exists throughout the Hollywood entertainment industry.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 5:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay I think I see where the misunderstanding may be happening.

A lot of the people who have come forward at this time are working actresses, and the Mira Sorvinos and Asia Argentos and any others who weren’t even that famous but were making a living from the business and kept silent (not saying those two did) can claim they kept silent so as not to endanger their livelihood as they earned one in this business.

But if you weren’t earning a living in the business but made your living as a waitress, etc. and you didn’t speak up, I’m just saying you can’t claim you didn’t speak up do it threatening your livelihood. And I would offer that the overwhelmingly vast majority of women who are ‘pestered’ as Emma Thompson puts it, by those within the entertainment industry, are these more aspirational types who aren’t yet making their living in the business.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 6:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
But I have problem with this idea of people not speaking out because they would lose their 'livelihoods' and that they might never work, or eat lunch for that matter, in this town again.

So what? Seriously. The entertainment industry in Hollywood is not the only way to make a living in this world.

Seriously? Confused

So someone who is good in their field of work should have to just go find a different career, for the reason of: there are rich powerful creeps running this field of work, and if you're not willing to pay whatever price they ask then clearly you just aren't good enough or don't want it enough. Basically you are the problem, not them.

And of course, let's then extrapolate that to every field of work.
Therefore, women, just shut up, ok. Stop your whining. We're actually getting quite tired of hearing it. Do you actually want employment or not? Well then just be some gross guy's fuck toy for a while, ok. Geez. Is that really such a big deal? I mean, someone out there is probably willing to do it. Therefore everyone should be willing to do it.


No, Luuuc, I want them to speak up. lol. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I was making too oblique a point there regarding the livelihood aspect. If for any reason having to do with continuing on in your pursuit of a career in Hollywood you didn't speak up about being sexually harassed or offered a role or something in exchange for sexual favors then that was a transactional decision you made. You made the decision to remain silent so that you can continue on pursuing your career ambitions.

If they're speaking up now, fine. But the problem is all the many thousands that still aren't, for that same reason. And on it goes. So I don't want them doing that, not speaking up about all the ugly secrets of Hollywood. But this idea of not doing it because they had to continue to earn a livelihood is, in the vast majority of these incidents, a specious claim. I think something like only 18% of SAG/AFTRA members are actually working and making a living. It's a stunningly low number. Maybe even less than that. The rest wait tables and tend bar, etc., or do any number of other jobs around town.

Although, honestly, it IS their business. Whatever decisions they make regarding speaking up or not. Just like it's anyone's business if they fuck their way to the top.

I'm actually not knocking anyone in this life for not wanting to take on a shitload of trouble. And going after Hollywood on this point of the casting couch has been not just a losing proposition, but a punishing one as well.

I've personally had a great reason for suing someone here. A very unique (but pretty sucky) idea I had was stolen and made into a pay cable network movie. It was incredible. I came up with this thing in 1990. mrs jammer was real excited about it and wanted me to tell it to some friends. One was a childhood friend of hers from Aliquippa, where we're from. And the other two were the childhood friend's girlfriend and a friend of hers. The last two were from here. So we were in a cafe, Pastel in the Rodeo Collection. It was Cinco de Mayo. So I laid out the plot, characters, setting, everything, and this unique title, etc. Title and story were definitely unusual.

You know, I don't know who did this. Could have been someone from my table or someone listening in from the bar. My money, however, would be on one of the girls at our table. But someone took my shit to someone they knew and whoosh, there it went.

So anyway. Many years later, like in the mid-2000s, I wondered if anyone had ever made a movie with that unusual title and so I Googled it. And wow. There it was. Title, plot, setting, characters and very specific character dynamics and outcomes, every fucking thing. In the can and on the tube and definitely forgettable and forgotten more than a decade before I ever even knew what the fuck had happened. lol.

I have my original notes. Everything. But here's the deal. Even at 60 years old, I still have ambitions of my own. And here's what I know from 30 years in this town (first 10 here the only people I knew were actors, actresses, and comedians) and after having read practically every inside baseball Hollywood tell-all that's ever been published.

Don't introduce yourself to this industry with a lawsuit. lol.

Nobody that matters in this industry knows me. So here I come suing some sucky ass TV people from the 90s? For a schmaltzy story idea (my first) that I would have never EVER put out there anyway. So no way that was every going to happen. Point is I understand choosing your battles as well as keeping the road ahead clear and unencumbered. Don't get your name in Variety for the first and likely only time as the plaintiff in a lawsuit against the industry.

Certainly I'm not knocking women for choosing not to call the police or hire an attorney and sue a studio or a exec in the entertainment business and endure what this industry has ready and waiting should anyone dare to come forward.

You know, on the other side of all this speaking up or not speaking up is the question of WHERE and how these women were or are supposed to do that. And that's where law enforcement, industry oversight, things that like are required. But this really has to move well beyond the Harvey Weinstein and only the victims of his depravity and to the issue of the casting couch as it still exists throughout the Hollywood entertainment industry.


1. "Choosing to remain silent" is a lot more complicated than a lot of people are portraying it to be. That's one of my big issues with this. (Along with the obvious one of this megacreep being exposed, but suddenly all the victims being the ones being scrutinised for excuses and loopholes and any possible way that they were at fault when it's pretty damn obvious to everyone (other than Art, apparently) that there is substance behind these allegations). Anyone who is an aspiring newbie in any career environment is going to start off with some level of trying to fit in, not upset the bosses, learn the ropes, etc. That's not Hollywood, it's universal.

2. There is 0.000% doubt in my mind that this is rife in Hollywood, thus my dominoes image earlier. The more people who speak out right now, the better. It's almost suicidal to be some random individual and go up against a multi billion dollar machine. Is it any wonder that it seems wiser to someone to just try to let it go and move on? Even when what happened was very wrong?
But if you feel like maybe you're not just one random individual, and that by speaking up you might give others the support to do so as well, then maybe that increases the odds that you'll do it, surely. And once you realise that "hey, not only might I have more support than I thought, but actually this person who did this to me might have done this a bunch of others too" then that for me would really crank up the motivation factor.

So those many thousands you speak of ... I have to think that this helps them too in the long run.
There are levels of everything. I'm not saying it's black and white. There are levels to which people have been assaulted/offended, and there are level to which they have been affected by it. But pretty clearly the balance is way out of whack right now - if someone this prolific is only just being exposed. That's really messed up. I'm not shocked to learn it, but it's still really messed up. The bar is set completely wrong, so maybe this at least gets it moving in the right direction.



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wonder if people don't bother to read other peoples' posts before they attack them, or if when they read them they just see what they personally want to see rather than what's actually written, or if they're just desperately in need of strawmen to knock down.


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PostPosted: 10/14/17 12:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:



1. "Choosing to remain silent" is a lot more complicated than a lot of people are portraying it to be. That's one of my big issues with this. (Along with the obvious one of this megacreep being exposed, but suddenly all the victims being the ones being scrutinised for excuses and loopholes and any possible way that they were at fault when it's pretty damn obvious to everyone (other than Art, apparently) that there is substance behind these allegations). Anyone who is an aspiring newbie in any career environment is going to start off with some level of trying to fit in, not upset the bosses, learn the ropes, etc. That's not Hollywood, it's universal.

2. There is 0.000% doubt in my mind that this is rife in Hollywood, thus my dominoes image earlier. The more people who speak out right now, the better. It's almost suicidal to be some random individual and go up against a multi billion dollar machine. Is it any wonder that it seems wiser to someone to just try to let it go and move on? Even when what happened was very wrong?
But if you feel like maybe you're not just one random individual, and that by speaking up you might give others the support to do so as well, then maybe that increases the odds that you'll do it, surely. And once you realise that "hey, not only might I have more support than I thought, but actually this person who did this to me might have done this a bunch of others too" then that for me would really crank up the motivation factor.

So those many thousands you speak of ... I have to think that this helps them too in the long run.
There are levels of everything. I'm not saying it's black and white. There are levels to which people have been assaulted/offended, and there are level to which they have been affected by it. But pretty clearly the balance is way out of whack right now - if someone this prolific is only just being exposed. That's really messed up. I'm not shocked to learn it, but it's still really messed up. The bar is set completely wrong, so maybe this at least gets it moving in the right direction.


First, yeah, I agree with all of this.

1. Complicated. Well, welcome to just one facet of reality in California. I don't necessarily equate (much) California with the antebellum south but then again I see something of an overall similarity. So think about all the books that have been written about the south back then, the Civil War, the issues, what led up to it, what went on during the war, and everything that happened after. California, IMO, is that on steroids and multiplied by all the complexities of the modern world.

Not saying there's not a lot of books and materials writing the story of California and all the impacts, but honestly, this is largely going to be the job of future historians and social scientists. This sexual harassment in Hollywood thing is only one facet of a matrix of behaviors and attitudes and societal results and implications that stem from just one entrenched power structure. It's really the only one I know and focus on. But the point here is that even this, in its entirety is again, ONLY ONE FACET of a matrix that results from only one entrenched power structure.

There's a line here. It's the line separating this all from being about Harvey Weinstein and his hundreds if not thousands of victims, and the hundred if not thousands of Harvey Weinsteins and all their victims. That's why I'm so focused on any comments coming out of Hollywood that hints at or touches on this larger systemic reality.

Because my things really comes down to this. I'm cool with any hot chick who walks into this situation saying who do I have to fuck to get anywhere in this town? But that there exists a place where inside the gates, and I mean that literally and figuratively, the protections that are afforded women or anyone in the United States essentially don't exist, and that that place is THIS huge, THIS glamorous and lucrative, baiting tens of thousands a year to come and take their shot, only to be met with all this sexual predation which presents young people with these soul-crushing personal compromises, in America, is something that we can only hope we our able to see mitigated by some semblance of restored order and justice.

2. More speaking out the better. Yes. Right now the only people speaking up are Harvey's victims. People talk about fear of Harvey. lol. What does THAT tell you? People are afraid of the INDUSTRY. So, as I've said, we have to hope that there is a tipping point of some sort wherein women who never met Harvey but essentially never met a guy in this business who wasn't trying to fuck them... where those women start to tell their stories.

3. There being levels of everything. Yeah. Again, this can be really complicated but in some ways it doesn't have to be. I have many story ideas. One would require a lot of very attractive young women to be made. So you'd have to have an open call. Depending on various things of course, but that open call would attract hundreds of actresses and maybe many hundreds. Half of them or more would have done absolutely nothing in the business and likely never will. If I were at that open call as the or one of the writers and that was known somehow by the women standing in line, and I went out there and mingled, I would have headshots and even scraps of paper with phone numbers stuffed in my hand by so many of those women, all with one hope. That I would call them and they could OFFER to have sex with me in exchange for a part in the film.

So that's the other side of the thing here. That there's so much desperation out there outside the gates, so to speak, of those wanting in at any cost, that it does create an environment where this quid pro quo is at the very least a ubiquitous and unstoppable reality. Pussy is flying around this town and nothing really is ever going to stop that. Nor should it. But there have to be protections and changes and better enforcement of regulations and oversight that protects the actual workplace and the potential for employment process from men on the inside exploiting this and using it in all the ways in which they have been using it forever here. They have been untouchable doing whatever they want to do and far too comfortable doing it for far too long. Anyway.


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PostPosted: 10/14/17 6:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rujeOqadOVQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Luuuc



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PostPosted: 10/15/17 3:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
I wonder if people don't bother to read other peoples' posts before they attack them, or if when they read them they just see what they personally want to see rather than what's actually written, or if they're just desperately in need of strawmen to knock down.


Says the person who jumped in first to tell me what I assumed about Rose's tweets, when I never even mentioned them.




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PostPosted: 10/15/17 9:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This isn't an epidemic in Hollywood. This is simply reality in any line of work. Honestly, at least in Hollywood, once something comes out..the women are mostly believed.

Blaming women for not speaking up, or blaming others for not speaking up for women. Ridiculous. Women need to risk being blacklisted in their line of work because men don't know how to behave themselves?

Here's how difficult it is. I've spoken up before, years ago. I even asked for advice on this message board over what I should do. Given the experience I had, I wouldn't speak up again.

I'm an outspoken feminist even in real life. I've worked in Domestic Violence shelters. I've been a part of women's groups, I've taken classes, I've been politically active in women's issues.

I wouldn't speak up again (For myself, given my line of work..it is my job to speak up for students..and I absolutely would, but I get to do that anonymously). One, it's personal to me (as the victim). Two, it doesn't stop shit. You're only half believed. You get so much anxiety because you start to question whether it was in your head, whether the perpetrator really meant to harass you, whether you sent the wrong messages (etc..essentially, all learned victim blaming behavior from society.) And it's a simply awful experience. And I was a teenager. Never mind if my entire livelihood was put at jeopardy.

This epidemic doesn't change with women speaking up. It changes with women having an equal share of power, and with a cultural shift away from "boys will be boys."



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PostPosted: 10/15/17 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
This epidemic doesn't change with women speaking up. It changes with women having an equal share of power, and with a cultural shift away from "boys will be boys."


"Change"? Well, isn't speaking up the first step? No power shift can happen til there's consensus that a power discrepancy exists, and speaking up is an essential step.

Of course, when The Leader of The Free World is a part of this 'discrepancy'....well, maybe we're just all fucked. Rolling Eyes



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/15/17 11:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
This epidemic doesn't change with women speaking up. It changes with women having an equal share of power, and with a cultural shift away from "boys will be boys."


"Change"? Well, isn't speaking up the first step? No power shift can happen til there's consensus that a power discrepancy exists, and speaking up is an essential step.

Of course, when The Leader of The Free World is a part of this 'discrepancy'....well, maybe we're just all fucked. Rolling Eyes


Women speak up all the time.

They aren't believed, or they are believed but get black listed from their profession etc..What happened at Fox News was an exception to the rule..and quite frankly, arguably was because Meagan Kelly was just as powerful publicly as Roger and it played out in public. (Again, this goes way further than the entertainment industry.)

Look at what has happened in this case? It's derailed, in every discussion, onto whose (as in, what woman's) fault it is that powerful men are taking advantage of women.

As I said, IMO, two things need to change.

1. The power dynamics need to shift. As in, women need to have an equal share of the power. (this is across all fields)

2. (And most importantly) until our culture changes, and "boys will be boys" is not acceptable. IMO, it has actually gotten a lot better. I know 15 year olds (who identify as conservative) that are absolutely horrified that their little sisters will grow up with Trump as president, given the "grab her by the pussy" tape. Who knows, maybe that'll change as power dynamics change. (IMO, there isn't much sexism in high school and college, I've noticed it more in the professional world.) But I also think that millennials have progressed. There's obviously still a lot of sexism in the generation, but I think there's a better understanding of what sexual harassment is, and whose to blame for it.



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PostPosted: 10/16/17 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How the teachings of Islam could help us prevent more sexual abuse scandals

Quote:
. . . Islamic teachings and Prophet Muhammad’s example provide a solution that no state truly can.


Quote:
The Quran further obliges men to provide for a woman’s every financial need, while holding that anything a woman earns is hers alone – preempting financial abuse. And when it comes to the Islamic concept of Hijab, it is men who are first commanded to never gawk at women, and instead guard their private parts and chastity, regardless of how women choose to dress – pre-empting sexual abuse.

Prophet Muhammad himself illustrated this point. In a famous incident, a woman described as strikingly beautiful approached the Prophet to seek his guidance on some religious matters. The Prophet’s companion, Al Fadl, began to stare at her because of her beauty. Noting this, the Prophet Muhammad did not scold the woman for her attire, but instead, he “reached his hand backwards, catching Al Fadl’s chin, and turned his face to the other side so that he would not gaze at her”.


Quote:
. . . we can employ a proven Islamic model that will stop this madness, and re-invoke gender equity today in America, and the world.
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 10/17/17 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From Mashable.

The #MeToo hashtag was used in an enormous number of tweets.

It was included in over 100,000 tweets in just one day.


IDK. Posted this today to the comments section of the NYTimes article on #metoo

jammer
los angeles Pending Approval

A week ago, in the comments section of the Lena Dunham piece published in this paper called Harvey Weinstein and the Silence of the Men, I wrote this:

jammer los angeles October 10, 2017 "Here's what really needs to happen now. Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, "Me, too."

Whether it was my comment a week ago or, as this piece today suggests, Alyssa Milano's tweet that inspired the #metoo hashtag is relatively unimportant. But if it was me, then I want to emphasize my concern that the focus should remain on Hollywood and the unique environment in which Harvey Weinstein was able to carry on for decades preying on the hopes and dreams of aspiring actresses and models as an open and often humorously downplayed secret.

Any and every woman who has endured sexual harassment of any kind should have a right to voice their own 'me too' at this moment.

But the focus must remain on Hollywood. For nowhere on earth is there a place where every year wave upon wave of young hopefuls come crashing against a system of sexual predation manned by those who use their entrenched power over everyone's career in the business to prey upon so many young women.

Hollywood has for too long operated far beyond the reach of laws protecting women against sexual misconduct and the result is as predictable as human nature itself. But it will never stop if attention is diverted elsewhere.


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PostPosted: 10/17/17 1:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:

I wrote a comment on the Lena Dunham piece that said that what needs to happen now is a sea of women, from Oscar winners to girls who abandoned their careers after six months of this shit, to come forward if they were ever faced or offered, either overtly or with a wink, some role, representation, some other advancement of their career in the entertainment industry, to just come forward and say, Me, too. I don't know how many women will do that. But I know that the number of women who COULD would be in the hundreds of thousands. Hundreds of thousands. Shocked


I wrote that here last Wed. I think, at least at the moment, that it's interesting that the NYTimes hasn't posted my Pending Approval comment above ... WHILE they did post a comment I made a half hour later.

jammer los angeles 42 minutes ago

This is diluting the story of what Hollywood is and how it has gone about its business completely outside the reach of laws protecting women in the workplace for the better part of a century. Nothing is like the entertainment industry in Hollywood. Nowhere is there this many thousands of young beautiful people flocking to an industry where they are met with open arms by a system of sexual predation on a level that is unimaginable in any other industry, in any other place in this country. Anything that seeks to move the focus beyond Hollywood only does a favor for the sexual predators who have operated with impunity for so long.


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PostPosted: 10/18/17 7:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As the list of Hollywood stars continues to grow, it also starts to diversify, which is simultaneously sad and good, shocking and predictable:

Olympic gymnast McKayla Maroney says team doctor repeatedly molested her
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/olympic-gymnast-mckayla-maroney-team-doctor-molested-article-1.3570958



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 7:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote


Quote:
According to US Weekly, "Molly Ringwald wrote in an op-ed for The New Yorker on Tuesday, October 17, that she was sexually assaulted by a director when she was just 14.

In a piece titled “All the Other Harvey Weinsteins,” the Pretty in Pink star, 49, detailed her own experiences in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein sex scandal.

“I have had plenty of Harveys of my own over the years, enough to feel a sickening shock of recognition,” the former child star admitted.


http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/molly-ringwald-says-she-was-sexually-assaulted-by-director-at-14-w509482



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PostPosted: 10/18/17 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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PostPosted: 10/20/17 3:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay, I know everything is starting to blur at this point, but wake the fuck up kiddies because this shit just took a turn for the real.

There is an Italian model who is accusing Harvey of raping her in a hotel here in Los Angeles in 2013.

The details, honestly, are both chilling and heartbreaking. The hotel was three blocks from my old apartment. After finding out where she was staying and ignoring her rejections in the lobby, he somehow (Hey, I'm Harvey Weinstein... what room is my friend staying in?) found her room and FORCED his way in, he implored her to get naked, she begged him to leave her alone, she showed him pictures of her two children and her mother ill with cancer. He responded by dragging her into the bathroom and raping her.

I'm so sorry this happened to her. I wish Harvey had choked to death on some fois gras (there's irony in the food choice there) at an Oscars afterparty. But this could be the thing that sends this animal to prison.


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PostPosted: 10/20/17 3:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tarentino just admitted that he knew about some of the things that Harvey had done and that even his ex girlfriend (including multiple other actrices) came up to him and said that Harvey molested her. He says now that he wished that he had done something but he didnt..



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PostPosted: 10/20/17 8:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lupita Nyong’o: Speaking Out About Harvey Weinstein


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/lupita-nyongo-harvey-weinstein.html



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PostPosted: 11/07/17 12:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Harvey Weinstein story just went from terrible to the scariest shit I've ever heard of.

The New Yorker: Harvey Weinstein's Army of Spies

The film executive hired private investigators, including ex-Mossad agents, to track actresses and journalists.

In the fall of 2016, Harvey Weinstein set out to suppress allegations that he had sexually harassed or assaulted numerous women. He began to hire private security agencies to collect information on the women and the journalists trying to expose the allegations. According to dozens of pages of documents, and seven people directly involved in the effort, the firms that Weinstein hired included Kroll, which is one of the world’s largest corporate-intelligence companies, and Black Cube, an enterprise run largely by former officers of Mossad and other Israeli intelligence agencies. Black Cube, which has branches in Tel Aviv, London, and Paris, offers its clients the skills of operatives “highly experienced and trained in Israel’s elite military and governmental intelligence units,” according to its literature.

Two private investigators from Black Cube, using false identities, met with the actress Rose McGowan, who eventually publicly accused Weinstein of rape, to extract information from her. One of the investigators pretended to be a women’s-rights advocate and secretly recorded at least four meetings with McGowan. The same operative, using a different false identity and implying that she had an allegation against Weinstein, met twice with a journalist to find out which women were talking to the press. In other cases, journalists directed by Weinstein or the private investigators interviewed women and reported back the details.

The explicit goal of the investigations, laid out in one contract with Black Cube, signed in July, was to stop the publication of the abuse allegations against Weinstein that eventually emerged in the New York Times and The New Yorker. Over the course of a year, Weinstein had the agencies “target,” or collect information on, dozens of individuals, and compile psychological profiles that sometimes focussed on their personal or sexual histories. Weinstein monitored the progress of the investigations personally. He also enlisted former employees from his film enterprises to join in the effort, collecting names and placing calls that, according to some sources who received them, felt intimidating.


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PostPosted: 11/22/17 10:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This fucked me up.

In all of these movies (and lots more), Ms. Sciorra is steely and luminous and game — fragile and feral and fierce. Sexy and dire. She can put the feelings you want to see from an actor, feelings you experience as a human being, right there on the surface, as portents of other psychological, emotional and romantic depths.



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PostPosted: 12/09/17 10:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bumping to keep track of.


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PostPosted: 12/13/17 7:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yet another one that puts into perspective how evil this fucker is.
A must-read, especially for anyone who thinks saying "no" is so simple.

Harvey Weinstein Is My Monster Too
By SALMA HAYEK



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