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Sparks @ Lynx - 10/04/17
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Who will win this game?
Sparks
48%
 48%  [ 21 ]
Lynx
51%
 51%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 43

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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Some of these complaints about Agler don't even make sense..

1.How many teams play their 4th post in the playoffs ?


The Lynx did. Pierson played in every game of the playoffs. The Liberty did in their one playoff game as well. So, basically just the coaches with more WNBA championships than Agler did so.



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Some of these complaints about Agler don't even make sense..

1.How many teams play their 4th post in the playoffs ?


The Lynx did. Pierson played in every game of the playoffs. The Liberty did in their one playoff game as well. So, basically just the coaches with more WNBA championships than Agler did so.


Brunson played 16 minutes in gm 1,and 19 minutes in game 3.Pierson was a bad matchup.Howard got minutes due to the aforementioned circumstances.Minnesota was getting blown out in games 1 & 3....Reeve had no choice but to play Howard....Playing Howard/Jones wasn't exactly part of the plan.Most lynx fans wanted Reeve to stay small(play Maya at the 4)...This is why I give Reeve so much credit for sticking with Brunson.

Washington plays a big lineup.New York playing a 4th post is no surprise.

Lavender was getting wide open looks.At some point you would expect her to hit 4 or 5 in a row.


willtalk



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


adamj95



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/915805656854159361

Starts at about 2:17 on the video. Even Nneka's sister agrees that she got her on the arm.



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One think more- The lynx rely quite a bit on picks to get their players open looks. Fowls often sets great screens and picks, but early in the series she also often got away with a lot of moving ones. I know on specifically where she pushed Gray into the player Gray was defending and the fowl was called on Chelsea. Now for some reason the called those fouls on Maya in the game she was in fowl trouble but her picks were nothing compared to the ones Fowls got away with. Perhaps the fact that her name is Fowls gives her a free pass on those.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.

Or...

They know and understand the rules of basketball.

I'll admit bias plays a factor in judgement calls, but this wasn't one of those. In fact, at the moment it happened I was thinking "thank god that this isn't a questionable call". I figured it would be bad enough with 5 being a bad call, and was happy that 6 was clear as day...



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:
willtalk wrote:
LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/915805656854159361

Starts at about 2:17 on the video. Even Nneka's sister agrees that she got her on the arm.


If you look at the second view it shows that if she did make contact it was not on the elbow but a pure brush on the side of the lower part of the upper arm. If she did indeed make contact it certainly wasn't enough to effect the shot. At worst it was but a slight brush and it certainly wasn't for sure.

Also Nneka's sister did not say " She got her on the elbow" she said " I think she might have gotten her a little bit on the elbow". Using the term MIGHT means it might have happened not that it actually did for sure. I also acknowledge that it might have happened but it was not on the elbow.

All that aside- Might or actually brushing the side of the lower upper arm it was still a bad call. At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot. Well it wasn't actually on the elbow and it was made after the stroke had already been completed. It might then still only be justified purely on a technicality and nothing more.


adamj95



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
adamj95 wrote:
willtalk wrote:
LA's weaknesses just got exposed in this series. Their shooting from 3 was not only subpar but as bad as they have ever shot this entire season. Lavender was a defensive liability and her offense didn't justify her being on the court. Either. Williams contributed vertually nothing in the playoffs. Neither did Carter. Their starting five is solid but their reserves were the weak link. It is when the starting five is in foul trouble o they are having bad shooting games that the reserves need to step up. That didn't happen consistently enough. Just compare the Lynx reserves contribution to the Sparks reserves.

As to Nneka's fowl on Brunson ( the elbow brush ) it might have appeared that she brushed her elbow from one view but from the other it looked like she didn't come close. Any poster who wants to justify that call is rationalizing and totally full of cr*p.


https://twitter.com/NBATV/status/915805656854159361

Starts at about 2:17 on the video. Even Nneka's sister agrees that she got her on the arm.


If you look at the second view it shows that if she did make contact it was not on the elbow but a pure brush on the side of the lower part of the upper arm. If she did indeed make contact it certainly wasn't enough to effect the shot. At worst it was but a slight brush and it certainly wasn't for sure.

Also Nneka's sister did not say " She got her on the elbow" she said " I think she might have gotten her a little bit on the elbow". Using the term MIGHT means it might have happened not that it actually did for sure. I also acknowledge that it might have happened but it was not on the elbow.

All that aside- Might or actually brushing the side of the lower upper arm it was still a bad call. At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot. Well it wasn't actually on the elbow and it was made after the stroke had already been completed. It might then still only be justified purely on a technicality and nothing more.


Well if you want to be technical she said "I think she got her a little bit on the elbow" Not might.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/10/5/16428214/nneka-ogwumike-fouled-out-game-5-wnba-finals-sparks-vs-lynx-referees

Even other people complaining about fouls called against her agree her 6th foul WAS a foul.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
[ At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot.

Again, you are treating this like it is a judgement call. Did it affect the shooting stroke, how much contact was it, etc...

None of this matters. All that matters is any time any contact is seen on a jump shooter's arm/elbow, and the defender isn't in legal defensive position, it is going to be called. 100% of the time. It is not a controversial foul. Focus on foul 5, that is a fair gripe. Foul 6 is going to be called if it is seen, and Nneka knew it, which is why there was no lastibg complaint.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/08/17 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.


Reeve has gone into every finals as the #1 seed from best record in the league, most Olympians. She didn't win in 2016. Why do you not consider her out-coached in that year?

Shades wrote:
Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?


Wasn't going anywhere? You mean wasn't going to beat the stacked Lynx or stacked Mercury in the Finals.The Sky had made it to the finals the year before Fowles went championship chasing.


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PostPosted: 10/08/17 11:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.


Reeve has gone into every finals as the #1 seed from best record in the league, most Olympians. She didn't win in 2016. Why do you not consider her out-coached in that year?


Was Reeve gifted the #1 seed?

I don't recall any glaring mistakes by Reeve in the 2016 series, do you? She got out-reffed, that's for sure. It's funny how Sparks fans want to complain and be one-sided about judgement calls this year, when there's picture proof that a non-judgment call was overlooked under 2 minutes that very likely changed the outcome of the game. The reffing in the WNBA is never going to be perfect, but I thought it was done as well as can be expected in this series. No memos saying mistakes were made were issued by the league office this year.

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?


Wasn't going anywhere? You mean wasn't going to beat the stacked Lynx or stacked Mercury in the Finals. The Sky had made it to the finals the year before Fowles went championship chasing.


They got humiliated in the Finals after stumbling into the playoffs with a 15-19 record. The Liberty went to the lottery with the same record that year.

Why contradict statements if you don't even have a viewpoint on the issue?



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

I don't recall any glaring mistakes by Reeve in the 2016 series, do you?


Reeve made a big time mistake in game 5.With LA up 62-59.Instead of going with Howard as she did in game 4(13 minutes),Reeve panicked,and decided to go small.She replaced Brunson with Moore.LA went on a 9-4 run lead by Parker who scored 6 of the 9 pts.LA pushed the lead from 62-59 to 71-63.

Multiple posters called Reeve out

wnbashockballa wrote:
game over just like i said reeve lost the offing game by taking brunson out


Shades wrote:
You waited too long for the timeout, Reeve. We're screwed


wnbashockballa wrote:

all in all like I typed earlier reeve lost the game with the perkin/brunson substitution that had gray go off for like 11 straight


5thmantheme wrote:
I'm a little surprised that RMonty and Howard didn't get more minutes. Reeve went with Moore on Parker again for a while. Those were specific gambles the coach made, idk if they were critical or not.

Congrats to the Sparks.


ChicagoAnnie wrote:
Reeve is lucky that bad call was in the final game, because her rant afterwards totally takes the focus off her subpar job making in-game adjustments.
Did the Lynx staff game plan around Nneka and forget Candace was still on the squad? Nneka goes to the bench in foul trouble, and game plan on defense falls apart?

Congrats big time to LA.




Last edited by zune69 on 10/09/17 4:15 am; edited 2 times in total
Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 4:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:


They got humiliated in the Finals after stumbling into the playoffs with a 15-19 record. The Liberty went to the lottery with the same record that year.

Why contradict statements if you don't even have a viewpoint on the issue?


Delle Donne - 16 games played
Prince - 26 games played
Fowles - 20 games played
Vandersloot - 18 games played

Nah, that can't have anything to do with their record!


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PostPosted: 10/09/17 4:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Agler did the same thing last season when they won the championship. He always plays his vets too much. The only difference now is that they lost game 5 and that is why people are complaining more about his coaching. If they won then a lot of people wouldnt bring it up.



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 5:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
willtalk wrote:
[ At best a petty call that should not have been made. Besides it was so late that it certainly had no effect on Brunsons actual shooting stroke. Remember some of the justification given for calling such a brush foul was that a hit on the elbow can effect a shot.

Again, you are treating this like it is a judgement call. Did it affect the shooting stroke, how much contact was it, etc...

None of this matters. All that matters is any time any contact is seen on a jump shooter's arm/elbow, and the defender isn't in legal defensive position, it is going to be called. 100% of the time. It is not a controversial foul. Focus on foul 5, that is a fair gripe. Foul 6 is going to be called if it is seen, and Nneka knew it, which is why there was no lastibg complaint.


Actually every foul that is not obvious is a judgment call. This was not really an obvious call. It is not certain that she even touched her at all . It appeared that way but was far from certain. So it is a judgement call. To imply that every call that a person appears to touch a persons arm always gets called is not correct. Players are constantly hitting and fouling the opposition with nor calls being made so 100 % is not really true. Referee's are given some leeway in respect to the certainty of calling fouls or not. That is why sometimes fouls are not called. A lot depends on the angle they are viewed from. Now I did say that technically if any contact was made it was a foul. The question i have is the level of certainty involved in such a call. Under the circumstances and level of contact that was not being called this call did not meet the requirements to justify it.

I did not bring up this issue but only responded to another poster who stated that video showed it to be a good call. It was to that post that I was responding too. It was not a good call because if contact was even made ( it was far from obvious ) it was incidental and certainly not consistent wit the standard set for the entire game.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
zune69 wrote:
and most of the foul calls on Ogwumike and Parker were B.S.


Funny how 1 or 2 questionable calls turns into "most".


It was more like 5 or 6.

1.The offensive foul on Parker in the 2nd qt when Maya flopped.

2.The Parker foul on Fowles in the 4th quarter.

3.The Foul on Nneka in the 3rd qt when she and fowles jumped for the ball,but they called the foul on Nneka.And this was after Fowles elbowed Nneka in the face.

4.The Foul on Nneka when she allegedly pushed Maya out of bounds.

5.The last foul on Nneka.The phantom foul on Brunson.

5 of the 9 fouls called on Parker/Ogwumike in game 5 were B.S....The refs called 3 fouls on Ogwumike the first 3 minutes of the 3rd quarter alone.


Nneka picked up 5 fouls in 1 half. 4 in the 3rd QTR alot were suspicious lets be honest here!



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How about Lori Ann forces a trade to LA to expand her Ice Cream and spread it all over the Lynx !!! #Karma



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 11:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:


Nneka picked up 5 fouls in 1 half. 4 in the 3rd QTR alot were suspicious lets be honest here!

People keep saying that, but the proof is in the tape. She had one bad call on her (her 5th), and one that could be considered questionable (tied up with Fowles on the rebound).

The rest were not controversial, or questionable, or "suspicious". We can argue all day long if they missed calls on the other end, and it is possible they did. But when it comes specifically to her fouls, it wasn't ridiculous. Players will pick up a foul on a bad call all the time. In this game Maya, Parker, Brunson, and Fowles all picked up a foul when they shouldn't have. It is part of the game, and players should expect to potentially pick up at least one a game, because of the whole refs being human beings thing.

As for foul #6, those who think it wasn't a foul, or shouldn't have been called, either: 1) Are Sparks fans who are legitimately blinded by homerism, or 2) Don't actually understand the nuances of what constitutes a foul, and the differences in contact and how it is called when it is on a jump shooter's arm. (BTW, just for reference, similar call was made on the Lynx when they made slight contact with a jump shooter's arm--because it is called 100% of the time when it is seen.)



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Blame the refs ...

Really ridiculous. There are so many calls and non-calls in a game that of course there will be mistakes (just as players miss shots and coaches call plays that don't work).

Blame the refs ...

The fault lies not in the whistles but in ourselves -- I think Shakespeare said something like that.



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:


Nneka picked up 5 fouls in 1 half. 4 in the 3rd QTR alot were suspicious lets be honest here!

People keep saying that, but the proof is in the tape. She had one bad call on her (her 5th), and one that could be considered questionable (tied up with Fowles on the rebound).

The rest were not controversial, or questionable, or "suspicious". We can argue all day long if they missed calls on the other end, and it is possible they did. But when it comes specifically to her fouls, it wasn't ridiculous. Players will pick up a foul on a bad call all the time. In this game Maya, Parker, Brunson, and Fowles all picked up a foul when they shouldn't have. It is part of the game, and players should expect to potentially pick up at least one a game, because of the whole refs being human beings thing.

As for foul #6, those who think it wasn't a foul, or shouldn't have been called, either: 1) Are Sparks fans who are legitimately blinded by homerism, or 2) Don't actually understand the nuances of what constitutes a foul, and the differences in contact and how it is called when it is on a jump shooter's arm. (BTW, just for reference, similar call was made on the Lynx when they made slight contact with a jump shooter's arm--because it is called 100% of the time when it is seen.)



My point is towards the refs not the lynx or sparks.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/09/17 3:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Just in 2012, and that's ancient history back when she was relatively new as a head coach. I've been tough on Reeve myself, but she does seem to learn from all her mistakes. I gotta respect that.


Reeve has gone into every finals as the #1 seed from best record in the league, most Olympians. She didn't win in 2016. Why do you not consider her out-coached in that year?


Was Reeve gifted the #1 seed?


She was gifted the most talent. She enters the finals as the favorite.

Quote:
I don't recall any glaring mistakes by Reeve in the 2016 series, do you? She got out-reffed, that's for sure.


I guess it hinges on how much better - or equal - someone thinks the 2016 Lynx were than the 2016 Sparks talent wise.

Quote:

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Fowles came from a stacked team she knew wasn't going anywhere. I wonder why?


Wasn't going anywhere? You mean wasn't going to beat the stacked Lynx or stacked Mercury in the Finals. The Sky had made it to the finals the year before Fowles went championship chasing.


They got humiliated in the Finals after stumbling into the playoffs with a 15-19 record. The Liberty went to the lottery with the same record that year.


Regular season 2014 Chicago record means nothing. Fowles played only 20 games (starting eighteen) and Delle Donne played 16 games (starting nine). You should pick one position - was 2014 Chicago Sky a "stacked team" as you previously stated, or "almost a lottery team" as you suggest above?

Quote:
Why contradict statements if you don't even have a viewpoint on the issue?


What issue don't I have a viewpoint on?


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PostPosted: 10/09/17 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well I just watched game 5 on league pass. Of course I watched it on rv on Wed as well. That 6th foul on Nneka was legit. She commits a lot of fouls that she is not called for. Yes she also flops as does Maya and many others. It seems to be a part of the game. In game four and five the Lynx played better than the Sparks, period. I find it funny that as long as the Sparks win and the Lynx complain about the fouls the Sparks fans say nothing(most of them anyway) but when the Lynx win the Sparks fans are all over this board complaining about the fouls called against them. Both teams get bad calls against them and players on both teams flop! That is just the wat it is.


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
Well I just watched game 5 on league pass. Of course I watched it on rv on Wed as well. That 6th foul on Nneka was legit. She commits a lot of fouls that she is not called for. Yes she also flops as does Maya and many others. It seems to be a part of the game. In game four and five the Lynx played better than the Sparks, period. I find it funny that as long as the Sparks win and the Lynx complain about the fouls the Sparks fans say nothing(most of them anyway) but when the Lynx win the Sparks fans are all over this board complaining about the fouls called against them. Both teams get bad calls against them and players on both teams flop! That is just the wat it is.


I for one did not make any mention of the Sparks losing because of officiating. My response was two fold. One was in respect to how legit the brush foul was on Nneka and the second was in response to a posters claim that the Lynx lost the championship last season because of a bad call.

In the latter case I pointed out that there were bad calls that went the other way influencing the out come of game 4 in the lynx favor. I suggested that that poster and others who bring it up should let it go. We all know that the officiating leaves much to be desired.

The first was one example directed purely towards officiating in general. My response was to a poster who claimed that that brush foul on Nneka was justified who provided a video to prove their point. I disagreed with her conclusion so I responded that technically perhaps it was a foul, but considering the way the rest of the game had been called it should not have been. Period. The last issue is purely and issue directed at the level and inconsistency of officiating using that as one example.

The point being that either the officiating is good or it is not. I don't believe that too many people on this site would say that it is good. So the intent of the poster needs to be clarified. Is the intent to complain that their team was cheated out of a championship or is it just a complaint against the level of officiating and it's negative impact on the game? What is obvious is that the officiating has had an undue influence both this season and last. We can spend all sorts of time "cherry picking" incidents to justify our own agenda's. Whether that should even be a focus of conversation is debatable. However the negative impact that poor officiating has on sports is not. It is a legitimate issue

Now there might be some people who believe that dysfunctional officiating should be accepted as all part of the game. If it were not correctable I might agree. But it could easily be improved so I do not.

The Problem in officiating in sports is because the sports themselves have evolved but the officiating has not. Officiating is still being run like a part time week end job and not the important career that it should be. The fact that a good official needs specific skills doesn't seem to be considered. I had made a previous post on this site in respect to players who have visual processing issues. Well an official role is all about visual processing and multitasking. What we have now in officiating is the best of a weak starting pool. Those that do not have excellent visual processing abilities/multitasking abilities should not even be in the initial pool. Right now, any Tom, Dick and Harriet can attempt to work their way up the officiating ladder. The beginning pool is flooded with individuals who should not even be in it. Certain skills can only be honed but if they are not there to begin with it's a lost cause. The inherent skills that are required to be a good official are basically ignored. I suppose this is another side effect of our delusive social environmentalist philosophy that believes we can make anyone into anything via education.


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PostPosted: 10/10/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think I predicted early on in this thread that if the refs continued to let Ogwumike climb all over Fowles the Lynx would be in big trouble. Things were different in the final game as it seemed to me the refs calls were fair and balanced. If the gamblers in LA were sending a car with money for the refs it must have got stuck in traffic. Well played series by both teams and the best team won.


Aladyyn



Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: 10/10/17 4:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:

Regular season 2014 Chicago record means nothing. Fowles played only 20 games (starting eighteen) and Delle Donne played 16 games (starting nine). You should pick one position - was 2014 Chicago Sky a "stacked team" as you previously stated, or "almost a lottery team" as you suggest above?


Pretty sure it was just a jab at Delle Donne, as per usual Wink

hence "stacked team that wasn't going anywhere"


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