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Sparks @ Lynx - 10/04/17
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Who will win this game?
Sparks
48%
 48%  [ 21 ]
Lynx
51%
 51%  [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 43

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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Agler isn't why the Sparks lost, but Reeve is one of the key reasons the Lynx won. I thought Reeve did a better job than Agler last year, but circumstances beyond the control of either of them (Parker being pissed off at USA Basketball, refs who don't know the replay rules) worked in LA's favor.

Reeve never gets proper credit for how good a coach she is. Part of it is that women never get that kind of credit as coaches. There's something else going on with her, though. By any objective measure she's one of the best coaches in league history, yet she is routinely dismissed when those discussions come up.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
There's something else going on with her, though. By any objective measure she's one of the best coaches in league history, yet she is routinely dismissed when those discussions come up.

It's not just that she is a woman, it is that she is a loud, intense, insanely competitive woman. Or as some have called her, "bitchy".

She openly admits to being hard to be around, commending her staff and players for putting up with her. When someone doesn't fit the social mode expected of them people look for excuses to minimize them.



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Speebs56



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 1:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

All the attributes people dislike in Reeve are exactly the things I LOVE about her! She gets pissed, she pushes people -- she gets shit done.

Love her intensity, her commitment to excellence, and love that Sweet Syl saw that Reeve was a coach who could/would push her to greater levels of play. Which is what we have all had the pleasure of seeing over the past 2.5 years.

As a former Monarchs STH I would have LOVED to see Brunson take the Finals MVP trophy home, I can't argue with Syl getting it. She was a beast.

Frankly, the Finals MVP could have been given to Whalen, Moore, Brunson, OR Syl and I couldn't have argued. (Mone wasn't quite there in the first half, due to her knee issues, I would assume.)


Shades



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
pilight wrote:
Reeve outcoached Agler by a mile in that series


Agler didn't miss nine of ten three-pointers, as Nneka did. Not saying she should be making 50%, but she should do better than that.


Isn't it on Agler for giving Nneka the green light on so many three point attempts? I remember Brunson missing from distance early in the series, and those shots seemed to disappear down the line.

ClayK wrote:
Cheryl Reeve rolled the dice on Alexis Jones, who had done almost nothing during the year, and got four three-pointers. (You might call that coaching; I call it more luck than design.)


Well she does see AJones in practice and warmups. Not a complete roll of the dice. That attention to detail is a part of being a coach. I shouldn't have to tell you, right? A lot of Jones minutes meant they lost that game anyway. She was just a time filler.

ClayK wrote:
And finally, how exactly could L.A. counter Brunson and Fowles in the paint? You can say Agler constructed the roster incorrectly, but that wasn't being outcoached.


I thought you were the president of the Youth Over Experience club. I guess the Lynx old-timers gain respect when they show evertbody up to win the championship. Just remember that the next time you want to call them old. I'm sure it'll be soon. "They're old and they can't do it."



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 4:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Since Nneka made 34% during the season, expecting more than one out of ten -- and by game five, she was only taking wideopen ones -- isn't out of line.

Brunson and Fowles, obviously, did not dominate through craft and trickery. Fowles is a 6-5 beast, strong and skilled, and L.A. had no one to match her. Brunson at one time was the best leaper in the league and she can still get up. She's also strong and has been a superb rebounder since she came in the league.

If that pair had been 24, the series wouldn't have gone five.


But just to make it clear: The age factor is much more important when considering trades, or even drafts, than in single seasons or single games. There's a major difference between present value and expected value, and that often gets overlooked in suggesting trading a 25-year-old for a 29-year-old.



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kojthiabkuv



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 8:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Agler isn't why the Sparks lost, but Reeve is one of the key reasons the Lynx won. I thought Reeve did a better job than Agler last year, but circumstances beyond the control of either of them (Parker being pissed off at USA Basketball, refs who don't know the replay rules) worked in LA's favor.

Reeve never gets proper credit for how good a coach she is. Part of it is that women never get that kind of credit as coaches. There's something else going on with her, though. By any objective measure she's one of the best coaches in league history, yet she is routinely dismissed when those discussions come up.


She was my COY.


tfan



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
pilight wrote:
Jones might have been partly luck, but she shot 38% from three during the season and 47% from there in her last 10 regular season games. Agler had a 40% three-point shooter on his bench. She couldn't get on the floor. Instead he let Odyssey Sims, 19% from three on the season and 27% for her career, take 19 of them in five games. Agler got lucky in that she hit seven, well above any reasonable expectation.


But who was Sydney Wiese going to guard?


Why couldn't she guard Augustus? She is a jump shooter who uses her length and high release to get a jumper off on anybody. But she doesn't do it all game and doesn't hit them all.


Shades



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PostPosted: 10/06/17 11:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
But just to make it clear: The age factor is much more important when considering trades, or even drafts, than in single seasons or single games. There's a major difference between present value and expected value, and that often gets overlooked in suggesting trading a 25-year-old for a 29-year-old.


No, it's not just talking about trades. It's been an ongoing mantra of yours for years now when predicting how well the Lynx will do.

Here's what you said just yesterday in the Sparks 2018 thread.

ClayK wrote:
Minnesota won because the Lynx are the better team right now -- whether they'll continue to be the better team when they're all a year older is another question, however.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 3:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Reeve deserves recognition for what she's accomplished,especially in minnesota.winning 4 titles in 7 seasons is no small feat.She's managed to keep the fabulous five's egos in check,which is very hard to do in the "I gotta get mine" culture of sports.I respect how loyal Reeve is to her players.She went to bat for Whalen when management wanted to go in a different direction.Reeve also put in great work as a assistant coach for Charlotte,Cleveland and Detroit.That being said,Reeve has had her WTF moments as head coach.In 2012,2015,and 2016 Reeve got outcoached by Dunn,White,and Agler in the finals.How do you lose to a indiana team that was playing without their 2nd best player ?...Indiana taking minny to 5 games in 2015 was also a surprise to most wnba fans.And Reeve,by her own admission said she didn't get the job done in last years finals.Some people are reluctant to give Reeve the credit she deserves because she's had the most talented team for the last 7 seasons.It comes with the territory.Reeve imo is a top 3-5 all-time wnba head coach.


blaase22



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 4:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Reeve deserves recognition for what she's accomplished,especially in minnesota.winning 4 titles in 7 seasons is no small feat.She's managed to keep the fabulous five's egos in check,which is very hard to do in the "I gotta get mine" culture of sports.I respect how loyal Reeve is to her players.She went to bat for Whalen when management wanted to go in a different direction.Reeve also put in great work as a assistant coach for Charlotte,Cleveland and Detroit.That being said,Reeve has had her WTF moments as head coach.In 2012,2015,and 2016 Reeve got outcoached by Dunn,White,and Agler in the finals.How do you lose to a indiana team that was playing without their 2nd best player ?...Indiana taking minny to 5 games in 2015 was also a surprise to most wnba fans.And Reeve,by her own admission said she didn't get the job done in last years finals.Some people are reluctant to give Reeve the credit she deserves because she's had the most talented team for the last 7 seasons.It comes with the territory.Reeve imo is a top 3-5 all-time wnba head coach.


I do think people are even harder on Reeve ( myself included) because she was given an embarrassment of riches, I think she would probably admit that also.
If she leads this group to one more title in the next two seasons, she would be the greatest coach in the W history IMO.


Shades



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 10:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
She went to bat for Whalen when management wanted to go in a different direction.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.

zune69 wrote:
Some people are reluctant to give Reeve the credit she deserves because she's had the most talented team for the last 7 seasons.It comes with the territory.Reeve imo is a top 3-5 all-time wnba head coach.


I'm not sure 3-5 is giving her credit. Who are 4 coaches you consider better?



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
ClayK wrote:
But just to make it clear: The age factor is much more important when considering trades, or even drafts, than in single seasons or single games. There's a major difference between present value and expected value, and that often gets overlooked in suggesting trading a 25-year-old for a 29-year-old.


No, it's not just talking about trades. It's been an ongoing mantra of yours for years now when predicting how well the Lynx will do.

Here's what you said just yesterday in the Sparks 2018 thread.

ClayK wrote:
Minnesota won because the Lynx are the better team right now -- whether they'll continue to be the better team when they're all a year older is another question, however.


As mentioned, present value vs. expected value.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 1:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Last season,Reeve said Minnesota management wasn't fully on board with giving Whalen a new contract at her age because they thought she was breaking down.Reeve comment was made at some point during last years playoffs/finals.

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure 3-5 is giving her credit. Who are 4 coaches you consider better?


1.Agler
2.Thibualt
3.Reeve

If Reeve wins one more before Agler/Thibualt,i'll give her the #1 spot.




Last edited by zune69 on 10/07/17 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
wnbashockballa



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: 10/07/17 2:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Shades wrote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Last season,Reeve said Minnesota management wasn't fully on board with giving Whalen a new contract at her age because they thought she was breaking down.Reeve comment was made at some point during last years playoffs/finals.

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure 3-5 is giving her credit. Who are 4 coaches you consider better?


1.Agler
2.Thibualt
3.Reeve

If Reeve wins one more,i'll give her the #1 spot.


bill gets no love he turned detroit around major hasn't had success in NY but i rank him above thibualt



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 2:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

wnbashockballa wrote:


bill gets no love he turned detroit around major hasn't had success in NY but i rank him above thibualt


Thibualt is better imo.Better teacher,better communicator,better in-game coach.Thibault made the playoffs his first 3 seasons in Washington despite having a mediocre roster.Bill missed the playoffs his first 2 seasons in New York.I had Bill on par with Reeve up until 2015.But after not winning a postseason game the last two seasons........ Rolling Eyes .........


zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 2:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Coaches I'd like to see back in the league:
C.Ross
S.White
B.Winters
J.Plank

Former Players I'd like to see coaching in the wnba:
B.Hammon
K.Lawson


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
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PostPosted: 10/07/17 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Shades wrote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Last season,Reeve said Minnesota management wasn't fully on board with giving Whalen a new contract at her age because they thought she was breaking down.Reeve comment was made at some point during last years playoffs/finals.

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure 3-5 is giving her credit. Who are 4 coaches you consider better?


1.Agler
2.Thibualt
3.Reeve

If Reeve wins one more before Agler/Thibualt,i'll give her the #1 spot.


She's already won twice as many as those two combined...



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 4:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Shades wrote:
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Last season,Reeve said Minnesota management wasn't fully on board with giving Whalen a new contract at her age because they thought she was breaking down.Reeve comment was made at some point during last years playoffs/finals.

Shades wrote:
I'm not sure 3-5 is giving her credit. Who are 4 coaches you consider better?


1.Agler
2.Thibualt
3.Reeve

If Reeve wins one more before Agler/Thibualt,i'll give her the #1 spot.


She's already won twice as many as those two combined...



I don't judge coaches by championships only.Reeve is playing with a stacked deck.She has the best players in the world at two different positions,and still managed to lose to Indiana who was playing without their 2nd best player.Yes,Reeve has more championships,but she also coughed one up in 2012.


Shades



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 4:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:

Last season,Reeve said Minnesota management wasn't fully on board with giving Whalen a new contract at her age because they thought she was breaking down.Reeve comment was made at some point during last years playoffs/finals.


I find this hard to believe. Did you see this in an article? It was Minnesota management that brought Whalen here in the first place. I believe Reeve, not having worked with Whalen before, was skeptical of giving up the #1 pick (Charles) for Whalen. If you can't document, I'm going to file this under "bad rumor".



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 4:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Did you see this in an article?


During a Minnesota playoff game on ESPN.


Shades



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 4:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:

I don't judge coaches by championships only.


But you just said this.

zune69 wrote:
If Reeve wins one more before Agler/Thibualt, I'll give her the #1 spot.


This seems to be exactly what Reeve was talking about not too long ago. Just because she's a WOMAN, she has prove herself twice as much to get an equal amount of respect as the men.

zune69 wrote:

Reeve is playing with a stacked deck.She has the best players in the world at two different positions,and still managed to lose to Indiana who was playing without their 2nd best player.


But you just said this.

zune69 wrote:
Some people are reluctant to give Reeve the credit she deserves because she's had the most talented team for the last 7 seasons.


Hmm.... some people. Any chance Reeve was responsible for some of the stacking? These players developed on their own? It's kinda like a chicken and egg thing. If they didn't win so much, people wouldn't think they're all that talented.

zune69 wrote:
Yes, Reeve has more championships, but she also coughed one up in 2012.


I agree that she messed up in 2012, but you're kinda acting like SpaceJunkie but disguising it as an "I respect Reeve but not really" post. Is it really that easy to win every year? It's the best 7-yr stretch ever.

I know you probably meant well with your post, but making all these excuses on why Reeve isn't the best unless she wins 5 championships, while making weak arguments for the male coaches you like is quite telling to me.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 5:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Reeve being a woman is irrelevant.

1.She coughed up a championship.Something Agler and Thibualt have never done...2.Reeve was outcoached in 3 out of 7 wnba finals...3.Reeve has a history of panicking(Throwing jackets)and picking up technical fouls during the playoffs.

Shades wrote:

Hmm.... some people. Any chance Reeve was responsible for some of the stacking? These players developed on their own? It's kinda like a chicken and egg thing. If they didn't win so much, people wouldn't think they're all that talented.


Developed who ?

Whalen was already a top 2 pg...Fowles was already a top 2 center...Augustus was already a 20 ppg scorer...Brunson was already a all-time great rebounder...Maya Moore was already projected to be an all-time great player.....Whalen,Fowles,and Brunson all played in the finals prior to playing in Minnesota.....Parker,Ogwumike,Beard,Toliver,etc...never played in the finals before Agler became the sparks head coach.

Assistant coach James Wade deserves a great amount of credit for the development of Fowles over the last year.I hear he's going to be working with Griner in Russia.This is why Griner will be my pick to win MVP next season.

Shades wrote:

I agree that she messed up in 2012, but you're kinda acting like SpaceJunkie but disguising it as an "I respect Reeve but not really" post. Is it really that easy to win every year? It's the best 7-yr stretch ever.


Bu,bu,but...Maya wins a championship every other year....so Reeve winning 4 out of 7 is a given....right Razz

Shades wrote:
why Reeve isn't the best unless she wins 5 championships


Because she gave 1 away......Had Reeve not given the 2012 championship away,she'd be my undisputed #1 greatest coach of all-time.


pilight



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 5:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Reeve being a woman is irrelevant.

1.She coughed up a championship.Something Agler and Thibualt have never done...


You mean other than all those times they couldn't even reach the finals? Thibault has a losing playoff record and hasn't been to the finals in over a decade, including coming up short twice as a #1 seed. You may recall it was his Sun team that lost to that sorry 2012 Fever squad in the Eastern Conference finals, despite home advantage. Agler only has a winning playoff record because he took over a loaded Sparks team. His first year there he came into the playoffs with a red hot team buoyed by Candace Parker returning at mid-season. Reeve and the Lynx stuffed them in the first round. Reeve and Agler have met in the playoffs five times, with Reeve winning four of them and only losing the other because the refs forgot the replay rule. She owns Agler.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 10/07/17 6:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Reeve being a woman is irrelevant.

1.She coughed up a championship.Something Agler and Thibualt have never done...


You mean other than all those times they couldn't even reach the finals? Thibault has a losing playoff record and hasn't been to the finals in over a decade, including coming up short twice as a #1 seed. You may recall it was his Sun team that lost to that sorry 2012 Fever squad in the Eastern Conference finals, despite home advantage. Agler only has a winning playoff record because he took over a loaded Sparks team. His first year there he came into the playoffs with a red hot team buoyed by Candace Parker returning at mid-season. Reeve and the Lynx stuffed them in the first round. Reeve and Agler have met in the playoffs five times, with Reeve winning four of them and only losing the other because the refs forgot the replay rule. She owns Agler.


Bad coaching isn't the reason why Thibualt and Agler came up short.

The Connecticut sun lost to a equally talented Indiana team in the playoffs.Thibualt wasn't outcoached,Indiana was just better.

Connecticut sun:
Charles
Lawson
Greene
Jones
Montgomery
Bass
Hightower

Indiana:
Catchings
Douglas
January
Zellous
Larkins
Sutton-Brown

2015 LA sparks:

If I'm correct,Ogwumike was playing hurt in the deciding game 3.Infact,there was a key play in the 4th quarter of game 3.Lynx were up 65-64...Ogwumike was wide open.Parker threw her the ball,but she turned the ball over.....Poor coaching had nothing to do with LA losing to minny in 2015


As for Reeve beating Agler 4 out of 5 times in the playoffs


2013:A 17-17 storm team lost to a 26 win Minnesota team

2012:A 16-18 storm team lost to a 27 win Minnesota team

2015:A 14-20 sparks team lost to a 22 win minnesota team

2017:Minnesota beat sparks in game 5 of finals


pilight



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Posts: 66773
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PostPosted: 10/07/17 6:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I see, it's only bad coaching when Reeve loses. Never mind that she's dominated Agler when they've met in the playoffs. Never mind that Thibault got fired for losing that series to Indiana (that's how equal Sun management thought they were).



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