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ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 10/03/17 9:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
she is a better leader, passer and just an all around smarter player with a lot of experience..


Really? If she's so invincible, then why with Stewart and Loyd and a far far better roster couldn't she lead her team to a better record than the Wings?

Some people let their fandom for Bird overtake all reality and reason.


Have you seen our defense and have you seen our bench Rolling Eyes How in the hell could Bird fix that? Offensively we were pretty good. I think our FG % was up there with the best teams (if i remember correctly) Maybe Richyyy knows the numbers compared to the rest of the teams.
Bird has never been known for her defense so i dont know how she is the only one responsible for the teams horrible defense.


You're not seriously arguing that Dallas's roster is stronger or deeper than Seattle's, are you?


Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 2539



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Really not sure why there is such fever, oh wait, its based on fan appreciation and preference Wink

Having no dogs in this fight, here's my 2 cents.

Doesn't matter who we think should be on USA, it depends on how USA operates and what they want/like for their team. After all they have been pretty successful. Not saying I agree either but thats what we fans do or not do.

The PG position is very particular by USA standards so far. Bird seems to be the type of PG they want. IE doesn't hunt her own shots, runs and manages the offense, gets everyone involved, total team first player.

Some of the PGs being tossed around, I like on the W level but don't necessarily have those attributes. This could be that they have to hunt their shots etc but the problem arises when they go to USA and possibly still hunt those same shots. You would think and hope that if they really want to make the team they would adjust. And I got this from a dude at Westmont - some of the PGs just don't get that the first option is not their shot.

When you hear comments like that it reminds me that not all players can adjust or are smart enough/want to change enough to fit in with this type of team.

We watch a lot of games and some players who score are not necessarily the smartest tools in the shed, they are gunners. They may make shots that are just bad shots, i.e. early in the shot clock, no rebounders in the paint, no shot clock management, take a shot when a better shot is open. Those players tend to be red flagged for the higher level, they may be top dog on their own team but not who any other top players would want to play with or coaches or mangers would want to deal with.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 10:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nixtreefan wrote:


Doesn't matter who we think should be on USA, it depends on how USA operates and what they want/like for their team.. . . .

The PG position is very particular by USA standards so far. Bird seems to be the type of PG they want.


It's not "their team". This isn't a private business. They don't own it. This isn't the Globetrotters.

This is the United States Olympic Team. USAB is just the organization currently chartered by the USOC to handle basketball. It used to all be run by the AAU. But Congress, by the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, chartered the USOC to represent the USA, and empowered the USOC to charter organizations for each sport. And just as the AAU was replaced, these organizations can be replaced.

In other words, it's OUR team, not "their" team. They represent us.

Complaints by others about their practices is why the AAU lost the role.

As for "particular PGs" what you really mean is that in the last eight years Geno wanted particular point guards. Beyond that I challenge you to demonstrate any "particular USA standard" for pg.


Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland


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PostPosted: 10/03/17 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
she is a better leader, passer and just an all around smarter player with a lot of experience..


Really? If she's so invincible, then why with Stewart and Loyd and a far far better roster couldn't she lead her team to a better record than the Wings?

Some people let their fandom for Bird overtake all reality and reason.


Have you seen our defense and have you seen our bench Rolling Eyes How in the hell could Bird fix that? Offensively we were pretty good. I think our FG % was up there with the best teams (if i remember correctly) Maybe Richyyy knows the numbers compared to the rest of the teams.
Bird has never been known for her defense so i dont know how she is the only one responsible for the teams horrible defense.


You're not seriously arguing that Dallas's roster is stronger or deeper than Seattle's, are you?


Storm have more talent in their top 3 players while Dallas has a bench that can outperform some of their starters while the Storm go to shits whenever Bird, Loyd or Stewart go to the bench



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"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 11:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
she is a better leader, passer and just an all around smarter player with a lot of experience..


Really? If she's so invincible, then why with Stewart and Loyd and a far far better roster couldn't she lead her team to a better record than the Wings?

Some people let their fandom for Bird overtake all reality and reason.


Have you seen our defense and have you seen our bench Rolling Eyes How in the hell could Bird fix that? Offensively we were pretty good. I think our FG % was up there with the best teams (if i remember correctly) Maybe Richyyy knows the numbers compared to the rest of the teams.
Bird has never been known for her defense so i dont know how she is the only one responsible for the teams horrible defense.


You're not seriously arguing that Dallas's roster is stronger or deeper than Seattle's, are you?


Storm have more talent in their top 3 players while Dallas has a bench that can outperform some of their starters


Huh? Who are these all stars sitting on Dallas's bench?

After the first three, why don't you match up for me the corresponding Wings player you think is better than -

Langhorne
Clark
Swords
Whitcomb
Tokashiki
Mosqueda-Lewis


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


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PostPosted: 10/03/17 12:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
she is a better leader, passer and just an all around smarter player with a lot of experience..


Really? If she's so invincible, then why with Stewart and Loyd and a far far better roster couldn't she lead her team to a better record than the Wings?

Some people let their fandom for Bird overtake all reality and reason.


Have you seen our defense and have you seen our bench Rolling Eyes How in the hell could Bird fix that? Offensively we were pretty good. I think our FG % was up there with the best teams (if i remember correctly) Maybe Richyyy knows the numbers compared to the rest of the teams.
Bird has never been known for her defense so i dont know how she is the only one responsible for the teams horrible defense.


You're not seriously arguing that Dallas's roster is stronger or deeper than Seattle's, are you?


Storm have more talent in their top 3 players while Dallas has a bench that can outperform some of their starters


Huh? Who are these all stars sitting on Dallas's bench?

After the first three, why don't you match up for me the corresponding Wings player you think is better than -

Langhorne
Clark
Swords
Whitcomb
Tokashiki
Mosqueda-Lewis


Langhorne - Paris
Clark - Powers
Swords - Plaissance
Whitcomb - Davis
Tokashiki - Thornton
Mosqueda Lewis - Lewis
Peterson - Chong



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 10/03/17 12:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:
she is a better leader, passer and just an all around smarter player with a lot of experience..


Really? If she's so invincible, then why with Stewart and Loyd and a far far better roster couldn't she lead her team to a better record than the Wings?

Some people let their fandom for Bird overtake all reality and reason.


Have you seen our defense and have you seen our bench Rolling Eyes How in the hell could Bird fix that? Offensively we were pretty good. I think our FG % was up there with the best teams (if i remember correctly) Maybe Richyyy knows the numbers compared to the rest of the teams.
Bird has never been known for her defense so i dont know how she is the only one responsible for the teams horrible defense.


You're not seriously arguing that Dallas's roster is stronger or deeper than Seattle's, are you?


Storm have more talent in their top 3 players while Dallas has a bench that can outperform some of their starters


Huh? Who are these all stars sitting on Dallas's bench?

After the first three, why don't you match up for me the corresponding Wings player you think is better than -

Langhorne
Clark
Swords
Whitcomb
Tokashiki
Mosqueda-Lewis


Langhorne - Paris
Clark - Powers
Swords - Plaissance
Whitcomb - Davis
Tokashiki - Thornton
Mosqueda Lewis - Lewis
Peterson - Chong


Plaisance starts for Dallas



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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 12:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Langhorne
Clark
Swords
Whitcomb
Tokashiki
Mosqueda-Lewis


Langhorne - Paris
Clark - Powers
Swords - Plaissance
Whitcomb - Davis
Tokashiki - Thornton
Mosqueda Lewis - Lewis
Peterson - Chong


Plaisance starts for Dallas


Langhorne starts for SEA. He was comparing after Top 3

I dunno about Paris being better than Langhorne, but the rest does seem to tip in favor of Dallas.



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Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 2539



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 12:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:


Doesn't matter who we think should be on USA, it depends on how USA operates and what they want/like for their team.. . . .

The PG position is very particular by USA standards so far. Bird seems to be the type of PG they want.


It's not "their team". This isn't a private business. They don't own it. This isn't the Globetrotters.

This is the United States Olympic Team. USAB is just the organization currently chartered by the USOC to handle basketball. It used to all be run by the AAU. But Congress, by the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, chartered the USOC to represent the USA, and empowered the USOC to charter organizations for each sport. And just as the AAU was replaced, these organizations can be replaced.

In other words, it's OUR team, not "their" team. They represent us.

Complaints by others about their practices is why the AAU lost the role.

As for "particular PGs" what you really mean is that in the last eight years Geno wanted particular point guards. Beyond that I challenge you to demonstrate any "particular USA standard" for pg.


USA is the one that is demonstrating what they want with the number of years that not only Bird has been involved but even going back to what Dawn says she had to become. Don't tell me what I really think unless you have suddenly become the Long Island Medium.

Are you picking the team didn't know that, I guess you learn something every day Rolling Eyes

But either way it doesn't really matter what any of us think or if we have an opinion you would disagree with it Wink


myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32326



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Being busy otherwise I haven't gotten my two cents in yet. Good points all around. My thoughts:

When Callan said the oldies would step aside on their own, I laughed. They can often still play but aren't really the best any more. I can understand wanting to go one more time but...if someone like Catchings who we all hold in high esteem wouldn't step aside when clearly she wasn't the best at her position any more, then I think expecting anyone else to do so is ludicrous.

I agree with Art that it is a great honor to represent the country and that it would be great if more deserving kids got that honor rather than having the oldies just because they are oldies.

I'm kind of back to thinking there should be a limit of two olympics. Then everyone knows they're only going twice so no feelings are hurt by being excluded. And maybe have a lowest age eligible also so we get the players in their prime rather than as bench sitters in their first Olympics (thinking of Stewie here) Use the Worlds as a way to start including younger players. JMO.

Oh and I think maybe Callan's position should also have term limits.



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if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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Shades



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Posts: 63711



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 1:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 1:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
When Callan said the oldies would step aside on their own, I laughed. They can often still play but aren't really the best any more.


Depends on how you define "best".... athletically or experience-wise seems to be the crux of the argument, especially when talking about the PG position. I'm comfortable with a experienced PG. The thought of Sims being the lead PG terrorizes me.

myrtle wrote:
I can understand wanting to go one more time but...if someone like Catchings who we all hold in high esteem wouldn't step aside when clearly she wasn't the best at her position any more, then I think expecting anyone else to do so is ludicrous.


Catchings was still playing at a relatively high level and then she retired from basketball. I'm not sure she was the best example to use. Cash and AJones seemed to fade away from Team USA even before they retired from the WNBA.
PF is a tougher position to hold onto in Team USA as you get older. It's less about IQ and brains and more about physicality and being a workhorse, more youthful attributes.

myrtle wrote:
I agree with Art that it is a great honor to represent the country and that it would be great if more deserving kids got that honor rather than having the oldies just because they are oldies.


It's only a great honor if you earn it. If a PG is so much better than Bird or Whalen, then show it in camp. Don't expect it to be handed to you. And remember, it's not easy being a floor general to team you're not familiar with with so little practice time together.

myrtle wrote:
I'm kind of back to thinking there should be a limit of two olympics. Then everyone knows they're only going twice so no feelings are hurt by being excluded. And maybe have a lowest age eligible also so we get the players in their prime rather than as bench sitters in their first Olympics


These are all bad un-American ideas. Here we are the country of freedom, and we showcase ourselves by putting in limits that won't be imposed by other countries? Athletes should only be limited by their own abilities.

myrtle wrote:
Oh and I think maybe Callan's position should also have term limits.


She'll know when it's time to step aside. Wink



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J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 10/03/17 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:

clearly the players returning who got the gold in 2008, 2012, 2016 have proof on their side, they won the gold, the medal doesn't get any golder. Yes the same exact thing could have happened with other player, but we know for a fact with these player on team USA they achieved the ultimate goal.


Do you consider that dispositive? You could write the identical thing about them in 4, 12, or 24 years from now.

J-Spoon wrote:

The players themselves don't make the decision who is on the team. I agree that it is surprising that vets like Bird, DT, Whalen, Augustus and others want to continue to put in the work to stay on the National Team, but it is just as much their right to wish to continue, as it is the right of new players to want to make the team. It is the coaches and committee who make the final decision so I don't think it is fair to blame the players in question for wanting to continue to persue Their Olympic dream.


There are people here arguing, and more importantly Callan said, that it should be up to these particular players to decide for themselves, that there is a spot for them as long as they ask for it, and that we should all just "trust" them to decide for themselves when enough is enough. Callan made crystal clear that the check you're relying on doesn't exist or at least won't be exerted by the current USAB power structure.

They have squatter's rights.


If these players are still winning in 24 years in their forties and fifties I think that proves they are the greatest players of all time and would explain why they would never lose their spot.

Even if Callan is saying it is "up to the players" that is still the decision of the committee not the players. And as we saw with Parker last Olympics that is simply an untrue statement on the part of Callan.

But as I said I do think it would be nice at this point to change things up. I assumed it would happen based on vets deciding not to continue with the team so I think if everyone decides to keep going the committee might have to make some tough decisions.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Being busy otherwise I haven't gotten my two cents in yet. Good points all around. My thoughts:

When Callan said the oldies would step aside on their own, I laughed. They can often still play but aren't really the best any more. I can understand wanting to go one more time but...if someone like Catchings who we all hold in high esteem wouldn't step aside when clearly she wasn't the best at her position any more, then I think expecting anyone else to do so is ludicrous.

I agree with Art that it is a great honor to represent the country and that it would be great if more deserving kids got that honor rather than having the oldies just because they are oldies.

I'm kind of back to thinking there should be a limit of two olympics. Then everyone knows they're only going twice so no feelings are hurt by being excluded. And maybe have a lowest age eligible also so we get the players in their prime rather than as bench sitters in their first Olympics (thinking of Stewie here) Use the Worlds as a way to start including younger players. JMO.

Oh and I think maybe Callan's position should also have term limits.


All good points. Including the last one.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:


It's only a great honor if you earn it. If a PG is so much better than Bird or Whalen, then show it in camp. Don't expect it to be handed to you. And remember, it's not easy being a floor general to team you're not familiar with with so little practice time together.



Callan made clear that's just what they're doing. They're "handing it" to Bird. She's already made it clear it belongs to Bird. Whatever anyone else "shows in camp" is completely irrelevant.

Are you paying no attention at all to how this is being done?

Bird is not the best PG available. She's just the favored member of the clique.


ArtBest23



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Posts: 14550



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:

If these players are still winning in 24 years in their forties and fifties I think that proves they are the greatest players of all time and would explain why they would never lose their spot.
.


No it doesn't. It just shows that the US has great depth and that any of 100 players could have won all those years.

All it would prove is that a corrupt system denied the other 88 a chance.


J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 6775



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 2:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:

If these players are still winning in 24 years in their forties and fifties I think that proves they are the greatest players of all time and would explain why they would never lose their spot.
.


No it doesn't. It just shows that the US has great depth and that any of 100 players could have won all those years.

All it would prove is that a corrupt system denied the other 88 a chance.


You missed my joke, I was saying I do not think an Olympic team in 24 years with 60 year old PG Bird backed up by 56 year old PG Whalen with 56 year old DT starting at the SG spot backed up by 52 year old Augustus could win the gold medal. And if they could still win Gold at that age yeah they are pretty amazing. (I was just improving the ages no need to correct if I'm off by a year or two.)


dtsnms



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So far the best argument, IMO, that I've read for change of the system is the honor of representing USA, especially after some of these players have gone through it from U16 on up.


myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32326



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 4:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Another way of doing 'term limits' in a less specific way would be to make it mandatory to include at least 4, or maybe even 5, first timers each Olympics. And maybe 4 who have only been to one previously. That would leave only 4 spots for the perennials which might make for some interesting cuts.

And yeah, Callan made it sound like no matter how much a younger player outplayed Bird in camp, Bird would still get the nod just because she's been a fixture and wants to do it. (picking on Birdy here but you could insert any other vet who's been to multiple Olys).



_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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Last edited by myrtle on 10/03/17 7:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



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PostPosted: 10/03/17 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

dtsnms wrote:
So far the best argument, IMO, that I've read for change of the system is the honor of representing USA, especially after some of these players have gone through it from U16 on up.


It's about being fair to everyone.

BTW, your tweet re: Tom Petty is something where we're definitely in agreement.


Shades



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Posts: 63711



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PostPosted: 10/12/17 2:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In Journey To Fifth Olympic Gold Medal, Basketball Player Sue Bird Is Passing It On

https://www.teamusa.org/News/2017/October/11/In-Journey-To-Fifth-Olympic-Gold-Medal-Basketball-Player-Sue-Bird-Is-Passing-It-On

Quote:
Bird knows there will be no shortcuts to the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, where she could make history by winning a fifth gold medal.

And part of why she’s still here is knowing her presence alone can help the program, as it did during a recent three-day training camp in Santa Barbara, California.


Quote:
“There are subtleties to being a member of this USA Basketball team,” she said. “A lot of it is doing the little things. I could tell you right now, if you sat down and said, who was the leading scorer in Rio? … Nobody would know. Who was the leading scorer in London or Beijing or Athens? You might guess, but nobody knows for sure."


Quote:
Bird remembered her first Olympics in 2004, when she was Dawn Staley’s understudy. Staley, who won her third gold medal as a player that year, is now the U.S. coach.

“Dawn was always in my ear that year leading up to Athens,” Bird said. “I learned the most just by watching her, the way she carried herself, how she led the team, what it meant to be the point guard of the national team. I’m just trying to pass that torch on the same way Dawn passed it to me. What Dawn did for me, I want to do for every guard out here.”


Quote:
Skylar Diggins-Smith found herself studying Bird at the camp. The former Notre Dame guard came away impressed by the veteran’s “presence, her professionalism, the way she takes over the game, the quarterback-type mentality she has. She’s the best teacher on the floor just by watching her.”


Quote:
Katie Lou Samuelson, a 20-year-old junior at Connecticut — where Bird was a star almost two decades ago — did not see an aging player at the training camp.

“She’s kicking butt,” Samuelson said. “She’s D’ing me up pretty good.”



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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/12/17 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/gCjqzr2qSGQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/13/17 8:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

'Next generation' starts now for USA Basketball



WNBA 09



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Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


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PostPosted: 10/13/17 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
'Next generation' starts now for USA Basketball



Caption That Face By Sue Bird Pleasseeeeee #NextGenMyA** Laughing



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RavenDog



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PostPosted: 10/14/17 1:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Out with several of the old and in with the new. Give some of the younger players the opportunity to play Dawn. USA will still win.


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