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Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs

 
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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 2:08 pm    ::: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/betsy-devos-may-rescind-title-ix-guidelines-heres-what-that-could-mean_us_59aff829e4b0dfaafcf443e5


The Dear Colleague Letter may be the subject. Gotta continue to undo everything the black guy did (unless it was pro-corporate/war machine/ or m/billionaire).



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Let's hope she announces the entire DOE is being abolished, that every employee is being furloughed, and that every dollar of DOE funding is being returned to the states to be used for education in the more informed discretion of state and local communities.

But I won't hold my breath for such a salubrious outcome. I did that in 1980 when Reagan campaigned on abolishing that counter-educational governmental atrocity.
allenleavell



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PostPosted: 09/06/17 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Let's hope she announces the entire DOE is being abolished, that every employee is being furloughed, and that every dollar of DOE funding is being returned to the states to be used for education in the more informed discretion of state and local communities.

But I won't hold my breath for such a salubrious outcome. I did that in 1980 when Reagan campaigned on abolishing that counter-educational governmental atrocity.

just asking in 1980.You remember that far back..


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 09/07/17 4:52 am    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVoss to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Gotta continue to undo everything the black guy did (unless it was pro-corporate/war machine/ or m/billionaire).


That's pretty much the entire mantra of the current administration. Wink


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 09/07/17 4:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Let's hope she announces the entire DOE is being abolished, that every employee is being furloughed, and that every dollar of DOE funding is being returned to the states to be used for education in the more informed discretion of state and local communities.

But I won't hold my breath for such a salubrious outcome. I did that in 1980 when Reagan campaigned on abolishing that counter-educational governmental atrocity.


Just curious about this. Why do you think local control is better for education. Isn't 2+2=4 the same everywhere? More local control can result in different standards for different areas, which results in problems when people move from state to state.

Plus local control can often result in more extreme groups who push their own agendas that don't fit in with the established knowledge base (Like the former head of the Texas school board who once famously said, "Someone needs to stand up to these experts...")


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/07/17 7:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
But I won't hold my breath for such a salubrious outcome. I did that in 1980 when Reagan campaigned on abolishing that counter-educational governmental atrocity.


Note that Reagan made no real effort to keep this campaign promise and DOE funding increased over 40% during his administration.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 09/07/17 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

allenleavell wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
Let's hope she announces the entire DOE is being abolished, that every employee is being furloughed, and that every dollar of DOE funding is being returned to the states to be used for education in the more informed discretion of state and local communities.

But I won't hold my breath for such a salubrious outcome. I did that in 1980 when Reagan campaigned on abolishing that counter-educational governmental atrocity.


just asking in 1980.You remember that far back..


Are you asking a serious question? I'm going on 73 years old and can remember a lot farther back, very clearly, than 1980. I can recall, though not so clearly, back to 1949.

Reagan's 1980 campaign in 1979 was very famous and somewhat similar to Trump's in terms of policies and media reaction.

CBiebel wrote:
Just curious about this. Why do you think local control is better for education. Isn't 2+2=4 the same everywhere? More local control can result in different standards for different areas, which results in problems when people move from state to state.

Plus local control can often result in more extreme groups who push their own agendas that don't fit in with the established knowledge base (Like the former head of the Texas school board who once famously said, "Someone needs to stand up to these experts...")


These are reasonable questions but giving full answers would take far too much time and space for a forum like this one. The policy, financial and educational outcome results of the DOE have been political issues for four decades, and the all the arguments, for and against DOE, are readily available elsewhere on the internet.

pilight wrote:
Note that Reagan made no real effort to keep this campaign promise and DOE funding increased over 40% during his administration.


Like every president, Reagan was unable to deliver on many of his campaign issues. He cut taxes but didn't do a particularly good job of reducing spending anywhere. In this, he was significantly hobbled by a Democrat House of Representatives for all of his eight years and a Democrat Senate for two years.

DOE is now much too lobby protected, porked-up and swampfied ever to be abolished. More realistically, we can hope that DeVos eliminates the unconstitutional executive action overreaches, and separation of power violations, that plague the DOE and many other of the other massive goverment bureaucracies.
cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 09/07/17 5:15 pm    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/betsy-devos-may-rescind-title-ix-guidelines-heres-what-that-could-mean_us_59aff829e4b0dfaafcf443e5


The Dear Colleague Letter may be the subject. Gotta continue to undo everything the black guy did (unless it was pro-corporate/war machine/ or m/billionaire).


Yup. Just like it did bigots, racists, and white supremacists, polluters and flat-earthers, the Trump admin. has now emboldened campus rapists.



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Jet Jaguar



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PostPosted: 09/13/17 4:38 pm    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Gotta continue to undo everything the black guy did (unless it was pro-corporate/war machine/ or m/billionaire).

That's because 95% of his policies were bad for America



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Jet Jaguar



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PostPosted: 09/13/17 4:43 pm    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Yup. Just like it did bigots, racists, and white supremacists, polluters and flat-earthers, the Trump admin. has now emboldened campus rapists.

Didn't you forget Islamophobes, Nazis, KKK, and misogynists? I mean if you're going to spew out a bunch of leftist BS, you may as well get it all in there.



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PlayBally'all



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PostPosted: 09/13/17 11:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe that Barack Obama was an excellent President. One who was and is respected around the world. That being said, the expansion of Title IX has been a disaster. That expansion needs to be reeled back in in order to preserve the great things accomplished by the Act. Colleges and Universities cannot be required to constantly police speech and off campus acts by students that are in no way connected to the University in order to interpret whether either can in any way be interpreted as supporting a climate of sexual harassment that deprives someone of their access to educational opportunities. At a minimum, the constitutionality of that process will eventually be found to require that same process be applied to a laundry list of special circumstances. It is neither reasonable or fair to continue this unjust application of Title IX. Access to educational opportunities receiving Federal Funds are clearly not an issue. The student bodies of many of these institutions are over 50% female. If a criminal act is committed against someone, the criminal justice system is the appropriate governmental arm to deal with the perpetrator, not campus administrators that are scared of making any determination other than that the accused should be removed permanently from campus.


bucks4now



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PostPosted: 09/17/17 10:53 am    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

Jet Jaguar wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Yup. Just like it did bigots, racists, and white supremacists, polluters and flat-earthers, the Trump admin. has now emboldened campus rapists.

Didn't you forget Islamophobes, Nazis, KKK, and misogynists? I mean if you're going to spew out a bunch of leftist BS, you may as well get it all in there.


So you don't believe in due process for college men?


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 3:21 am    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

Jet Jaguar wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Gotta continue to undo everything the black guy did (unless it was pro-corporate/war machine/ or m/billionaire).

That's because 95% of his policies were bad for America


Really? 95%?

What I find amusing about many of the anti-Obama people is that so many of them act like he was against working with the Republicans when in fact the opposite was true. He often tried so hard to work with them that he messed up his own policies (when he was elected, the Republicans in Congress had a meeting and decided that they were going to make sure that they would fight absolutely everything he tried to do, regardless of what it was, just so he wouldn't have any kind of legacy).

Take healthcare, for instance. The Dems had been working for years to try to get single payer set up. The old healthcare system was so messed up that everyone knew something had to be done. Obama figured that he could get some Republican support if he used one of their plans as a basis (ie. Romney-care, which was the basis for his plan. Romney-care was created by the Heritage Foundation). However, the Republicans went on the whole BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE! tantrum and attacked it as "Socialist" (How exactly is a plan that uses private insurance companies as it's foundation socialist? If you think that is socialist, then you don't understand the difference between socialism and capitalism). One thing that would have helped the setup was "public option" but he dropped that because he figured he'd have problems passing it with that in it (a gift to the insurance corporations. Does that sound like a liberal thing, doing stuff for corporations?).

The reason that Republicans this year couldn't come up with a replacement for the ACA (actually, the full name is "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". For some reason, they keep leaving off the "Patient Protection" part), is because it was their own plan. The only way to go farther right from that plan is to go back to the old system that everyone agrees was broken. They backed themselves into the corner with their "Everything Obama does is socialist!" rhetoric.

As for his executive orders (which weren't really greater in number than any other president), consider that Congress couldn't pass anything other than Obamacare repeals that they knew would be vetoed (funny how they couldn't pass one when they knew it would be signed! Hmmm! Almost like it was just for show!). They had problems passing budgets and farm bills, which usually are slam dunks!

Unfortunately, Fox News keeps trying to suggest all his stuff was socialist, even though he favored corporations quite a bit.

It's like my sister once said to me, the last true liberal president was LBJ. Carter? Not really. Clinton? Please! Obama? Don't make me laugh!

When the conservatives keep moving farther and farther right, the true center keeps looking more and more liberal. Look at the stuff Reagan (who was considered really conservative at the time) did: He actually raised taxes at one point (largest tax increase in US history). He granted amnesty to illegal immigrants. That "Obama phone" thing (which was actually signed by GW Bush, but why let that get in the way of Obama hate?) was actually a modernization of a program under Reagan.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 8:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And here's the summary of and discussion around DeVos' speech, for anyone still interested in this thread's topic.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/07/protesters-gather-anticipating-devos-speech-on-campus-sexual-assault/?utm_term=.aca306aca125
And the transcript of her speech.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/07/transcript-betsy-devoss-remarks-on-campus-sexual-assault/?utm_term=.19d2b0fe29c4

In a nutshell, she says the current system of schools investigating and adjudicating sexual assaults is broken, although she comes down most strongly on the lack of due process for the accused. The plan is to review the whole process with public input and make changes.

Unsurprisingly, the discussion shows most everyone thinks the current system is flawed, but DeVos' remarks are predictably taken to mean that the Trump administration supports rapists.




Last edited by FrozenLVFan on 09/18/17 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is a very complicated issue, because it's fundamentally a he said-she said situation, and there are seldom witnesses.

The first issue is the word "rape," which has deep and powerful connotations.

If you define "rape" as unwanted sex, that's a different perception than defining it as sex by force.

So a young woman who might be under the influence of alcohol says "no," but then acquiesces can certainly say that it was unwanted sex, while a young man under the influence of alcohol can claim that there was no resistance and thus it was consensual.

How can anyone judge what really happened?

Sex by force is a different issue, I believe, and is usually much more clearcut.

Regardless, there's no question young women are forced into sex after having had too much to drink ... but if they are less responsible for their actions because of the alcohol involved, so are the young men.

Very tangled issue with no clearcut answers. Losers on both sides, really ...



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 11:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
And here's the summary of and discussion around DeVos' speech, for anyone still interested in this thread's topic.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/07/protesters-gather-anticipating-devos-speech-on-campus-sexual-assault/?utm_term=.aca306aca125
And the transcript of her speech.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2017/09/07/transcript-betsy-devoss-remarks-on-campus-sexual-assault/?utm_term=.19d2b0fe29c4

In a nutshell, she says the current system of schools investigating and adjudicating sexual assaults is broken, although she comes down most strongly on the lack of due process for the accused. The plan is to review the whole process with public input and make changes.

Unsurprisingly, the discussion shows most everyone thinks the current system is flawed, but DeVos' remarks are predictably taken to mean that the Trump administration supports rapists.


It was an excellent speech. But superficial political posturers who are ignorant of the Constitutional separation and abuse of power issues, the lack of due process issues, and the unworkable outcome issues, won't read it. They will simply react with the same knee jerks as always: calling names and spewing vulgarities.

I spent a fair amount of time trying fairly to summarize some of these Title IX Dear Colleague Letter issues in one post in the Baylor thread.
pilight



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
But superficial political posturers who are ignorant of the Constitutional separation and abuse of power issues, the lack of due process issues, and the unworkable outcome issues, won't read it. They will simply react with the same knee jerks as always: calling names and spewing vulgarities.


I agree that name calling and vulgarity signify superficiality and ignorance.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/18/17 12:35 pm    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

bucks4now wrote:
Jet Jaguar wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Yup. Just like it did bigots, racists, and white supremacists, polluters and flat-earthers, the Trump admin. has now emboldened campus rapists.

Didn't you forget Islamophobes, Nazis, KKK, and misogynists? I mean if you're going to spew out a bunch of leftist BS, you may as well get it all in there.


So you don't believe in due process for college men?



Yes indeed! I support due process for any collegiate rape victim, be they female or male.



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PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 12:57 pm    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:

Really? 95%?

What I find amusing about many of the anti-Obama people is that so many of them act like he was against working with the Republicans when in fact the opposite was true. He often tried so hard to work with them that he messed up his own policies (when he was elected, the Republicans in Congress had a meeting and decided that they were going to make sure that they would fight absolutely everything he tried to do, regardless of what it was, just so he wouldn't have any kind of legacy).

Take healthcare, for instance. The Dems had been working for years to try to get single payer set up. The old healthcare system was so messed up that everyone knew something had to be done. Obama figured that he could get some Republican support if he used one of their plans as a basis (ie. Romney-care, which was the basis for his plan. Romney-care was created by the Heritage Foundation). However, the Republicans went on the whole BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE! tantrum and attacked it as "Socialist" (How exactly is a plan that uses private insurance companies as it's foundation socialist? If you think that is socialist, then you don't understand the difference between socialism and capitalism). One thing that would have helped the setup was "public option" but he dropped that because he figured he'd have problems passing it with that in it (a gift to the insurance corporations. Does that sound like a liberal thing, doing stuff for corporations?).

The reason that Republicans this year couldn't come up with a replacement for the ACA (actually, the full name is "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". For some reason, they keep leaving off the "Patient Protection" part), is because it was their own plan. The only way to go farther right from that plan is to go back to the old system that everyone agrees was broken. They backed themselves into the corner with their "Everything Obama does is socialist!" rhetoric.

As for his executive orders (which weren't really greater in number than any other president), consider that Congress couldn't pass anything other than Obamacare repeals that they knew would be vetoed (funny how they couldn't pass one when they knew it would be signed! Hmmm! Almost like it was just for show!). They had problems passing budgets and farm bills, which usually are slam dunks!

Unfortunately, Fox News keeps trying to suggest all his stuff was socialist, even though he favored corporations quite a bit.

It's like my sister once said to me, the last true liberal president was LBJ. Carter? Not really. Clinton? Please! Obama? Don't make me laugh!

When the conservatives keep moving farther and farther right, the true center keeps looking more and more liberal. Look at the stuff Reagan (who was considered really conservative at the time) did: He actually raised taxes at one point (largest tax increase in US history). He granted amnesty to illegal immigrants. That "Obama phone" thing (which was actually signed by GW Bush, but why let that get in the way of Obama hate?) was actually a modernization of a program under Reagan.


All of this. Obama did everything in his power to toe the line, but Republicans cock-blocked their own interests for 8 years with the specific intention of destroying his legitimacy and, in effect, prevent another black person from ever being elected again. It was absolutely deliberate.


cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 1:10 pm    ::: Re: Title IX in trouble? DeVos to speak Thurs Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
Jet Jaguar wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Gotta continue to undo everything the black guy did (unless it was pro-corporate/war machine/ or m/billionaire).

That's because 95% of his policies were bad for America


Really? 95%?

What I find amusing about many of the anti-Obama people is that so many of them act like he was against working with the Republicans when in fact the opposite was true. He often tried so hard to work with them that he messed up his own policies (when he was elected, the Republicans in Congress had a meeting and decided that they were going to make sure that they would fight absolutely everything he tried to do, regardless of what it was, just so he wouldn't have any kind of legacy).

Take healthcare, for instance. The Dems had been working for years to try to get single payer set up. The old healthcare system was so messed up that everyone knew something had to be done. Obama figured that he could get some Republican support if he used one of their plans as a basis (ie. Romney-care, which was the basis for his plan. Romney-care was created by the Heritage Foundation). However, the Republicans went on the whole BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE! tantrum and attacked it as "Socialist" (How exactly is a plan that uses private insurance companies as it's foundation socialist? If you think that is socialist, then you don't understand the difference between socialism and capitalism). One thing that would have helped the setup was "public option" but he dropped that because he figured he'd have problems passing it with that in it (a gift to the insurance corporations. Does that sound like a liberal thing, doing stuff for corporations?).

The reason that Republicans this year couldn't come up with a replacement for the ACA (actually, the full name is "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". For some reason, they keep leaving off the "Patient Protection" part), is because it was their own plan. The only way to go farther right from that plan is to go back to the old system that everyone agrees was broken. They backed themselves into the corner with their "Everything Obama does is socialist!" rhetoric.

As for his executive orders (which weren't really greater in number than any other president), consider that Congress couldn't pass anything other than Obamacare repeals that they knew would be vetoed (funny how they couldn't pass one when they knew it would be signed! Hmmm! Almost like it was just for show!). They had problems passing budgets and farm bills, which usually are slam dunks!

Unfortunately, Fox News keeps trying to suggest all his stuff was socialist, even though he favored corporations quite a bit.

It's like my sister once said to me, the last true liberal president was LBJ. Carter? Not really. Clinton? Please! Obama? Don't make me laugh!

When the conservatives keep moving farther and farther right, the true center keeps looking more and more liberal. Look at the stuff Reagan (who was considered really conservative at the time) did: He actually raised taxes at one point (largest tax increase in US history). He granted amnesty to illegal immigrants. That "Obama phone" thing (which was actually signed by GW Bush, but why let that get in the way of Obama hate?) was actually a modernization of a program under Reagan.


Isn't it great? The FOXNEWS/Alex Jones/Sinclair viewer gets lathered up by "Obama"care, though it's a Heritage Foundation, i.e., Republican/corporate, idea.

They also believe, like their hero Mango Mussolini, that Obama was born in Kenya and is Muslim.

Even John McCain knows better.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 09/18/17 7:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is a worthwhile discussion if discussed worthily, but it is overwhelmingly political and only tangentially sports-related, and hence belongs in Area 51 in my opinion. Political threads have hurt this site, and I think they should be kept away from the basketball forums, which have enough of their own culture of tensions.

Although I participate in some of them, I wouldn't mind banning all political discussion from RebKell. Not much would be lost, in my judgment, and perhaps some people and participation would be regained. This opinion, too, belongs in Area 51.
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/19/17 11:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/09/14/surprisingly-some-feminist-lawyers-side-with-trump-and-devos-campus-assault-policy/ArigBzO86tERWpDW17DbTI/story.html


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 09/19/17 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Title IX has always been an imperfect law with laudable goals but questionable regulations that lead to problematic results. Sexual assaults on campus are a real problem, whether caused by alcohol, fraternity structures or other societal pressures. Academic institutions have by and large done a very poor job of addressing these problems in large part due to an entrenched, male-dominated hierarchy, including a donor base in some cases tied to the success of its sports teams. This has created a need for outside regulation which has unfortunately been ineffective. Similarly, with regard to equalizing sports participation between men and women, the laudable goal has been subverted by issues like how to account for revenue producing sports and whether or not cheerleading is a sport. What is left is an unsatisfying outcome to nearly everyone except lawyers. But for all of its problems, on balance I still believe we are better off having Title IX.

On the other hand, if there is one way I would love to turn the clock back to the Reagan 1980's, it would be to have a President who doesn't tweet.


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