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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/14/17 10:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
There is and has been for decades a wall in many areas where a wall is what was deemed viable. Fencing and natural barriers exist elsewhere along the border. All of that needs better funding and technology and whatever 'force multipliers' are useful in continuing to secure the border. Trump's wall, as far as his base is concerned and most Americans who oppose 'open borders' is a metaphor or code for a more effective effort to curtail illegal border crossings.


Actually it's supposed to be a real wall, constructed out of hardened concrete, rebar and steel, and would be artistically beautiful. Or so Trump said last December.


If you take him literally or find holding him literally to his campaign rhetoric to be useful in opposing his presidency.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 10:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To continue, Homeland security issued a Request For Proposals for prototypes of a "Solid Concrete Border Wall.". They awarded four separate $300,000,000 contracts based on the proposals received.

"The Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) awarded four Indefinite Delivery Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contracts with Firm Fixed Prices for the solicited Border Wall Design Build requirements under CBP Solicitation# HSBP1017R0022. The four awardees are Caddell Construction CO (DE) LLC, Fisher Sand & Gravel Co, Texas Sterling Construction Co and W.G. Yates and Sons Construction Co."

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=cff7de3dac2790e71966a823b73ec024&tab=core&_cview=1

This isn't supposed to be just a "metaphor".

And btw, that Trump description was provided in December, long after the election was over. It wasn't "campaign rhetoric".


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/14/17 10:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:

I asked a specific question about a specific situation. Since there is no good response, it is met with sweeping generalizations as if they apply to everyone of the 800,000.

I never claimed none speak Spanish or have family in Central America. Only that some meet that description. Tfan can only respond with assumptions that all speak Spanish and have family ties in Central America.


Your assumption that some don't speak Spanish is no more valid than my assumption that all do. And I said they all speak Spanish, I didn't all say they have family in their homeland. But the majority very likely do.

Quote:
Lots of them came young. Lots of them don't speak a word of Spanish. Lots of them have absolutely no ties to any country other than the United States.


Let us know how a kid born in a Spanish speaking country, raised by two illegal alien parents who speak Spanish would not speak Spanish? Did they hire him/her a live-in English tutor/translator with their illegal wages? A large majority probably have family - besides their family unit - in their country. But they will at a minimum have their parents and siblings. More than Ticha Penicheiro and millions of others had.

Quote:
My question still stands. Tough to deal with, isn't it.


The answer to your question is they get deported. Not tough to deal with at all. And you will be happy to know that they can sneak back in illegally in the future and be met with the same positive response that the faux virtuous gave them the first time as they take jobs from Americans.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 09/14/17 11:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
I can, however, certainly see that in the environment that has overtaken this forum (and this country) whatever he's saying that is anti-illegal immigration (which I am) must, it seems, be met with personal accusations of being an extremist, racist, xenophobe, etc.


Yep. When he gives answers like this, "extremist, racist, xenophobe" is pretty much spot on.

tfan wrote:

The answer to your question is they get deported. Not tough to deal with at all. And you will be happy to know that they can sneak back in illegally in the future and be met with the same positive response that the faux virtuous gave them the first time as they take jobs from Americans.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/14/17 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

First, Art. Trump continues even now spouting campaign rhetoric, it's his fallback comfort zone. He will always be spouting coded manipulative demogoguery even after he leaves the White House. Second, what are you showing there? That Trump's goofy staffed by clowns early days admin was vetting construction companies to build. that. wall? Lol. Exactly? Why would anyone have expected anything different from a bunch of neophytes containing people line Bannon and Steven Miller? Does anyone have a government contract to build a wall? No. Do the American people want a needless expensive wall or would they accept and even expect their government to find smarter and cheaper solutions if they are and can be counted on to accomplish the desired result? As a person who wants a locked down border I can tell you that the details, wall, fencing, motes filled with alligators, whatever it takes will be okay with me and I'm sure the majority of Americans who see our border as being too porous.

Look, you have to be politically aware enough to recognize that this is, at this point, a 'thing' surrounding the debate about this guy Donald Trump. He floats all this shit out there that delights his base, who do not take him literally, as has been reporeted in an interesting piece in the NYTimes, they take him, more like the WWF stuff he used to do, and then opponents and the media try to hang him for it all. And the tactics of ignoring how he is taken by Trump voters is all part of the anti-Trump toolbox.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/14/17 11:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
I can, however, certainly see that in the environment that has overtaken this forum (and this country) whatever he's saying that is anti-illegal immigration (which I am) must, it seems, be met with personal accusations of being an extremist, racist, xenophobe, etc.


Yep. When he gives answers like this, "extremist, racist, xenophobe" is pretty much spot on.

tfan wrote:

The answer to your question is they get deported. Not tough to deal with at all. And you will be happy to know that they can sneak back in illegally in the future and be met with the same positive response that the faux virtuous gave them the first time as they take jobs from Americans.


They do take jobs from Americans and many would sneak back in. How have we come to a point where someone simply speaking the truth is racist and xenophobic? Come down off the ceiling, people. lol. Jesus.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Because somebody who has spent their entire life in this country contributing to and building this country and in many instances fighting to protect this country is every bit as much an American as you or me or tfan is.

They aren't taking jobs from Americans. They are Americans.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 09/15/17 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Does anyone have a government contract to build a wall?


Yes. Four companies. 1.2 BILLION dollars worth of government contracts. Just like when they want to build a new airplane or missile system or other major project. The first phase is the award of multiple design and prototype contracts and then later they choose from among the designs built a final design to be built in quantity.

This isn't a game. They have awarded over a billion dollars in government contracts already.

Denying that is just more denial of reality.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8152
Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
They are Americans.


I thought you wanted people to argue on the basis of facts and law and not on phony rhetoric.

Any person not a U.S. citizen or U.S. national is an "alien" -- not an American.

Any alien who entered the U.S. illegally is an "illegal alien" -- not an American.

All DACA recipients are, by definition, aliens who came into America illegally as children, who now have an average age of about 24. They are prototypical illegal aliens, not Americans, unless you want to torture longstanding immigration law definitions in the service of misleading political rhetoric.

The "D" and "A" simply mean that Obama -- unconstitutionally according to all courts so far -- temporarily "deferred action" on deporting these illegal aliens for a period of time.

One can argue that federal law should be changed by Congress so that these DACA illegal aliens should or should not be subject to deportation, or that they should or should not be granted some sort of amnesty, or that they should or should not be granted some sort of path to American citizenship. But it's phony political rhetoric, under longstanding current statutory law, to call these illegal aliens "Americans".
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Because somebody who has spent their entire life in this country contributing to and building this country and in many instances fighting to protect this country is every bit as much an American as you or me or tfan is.

They aren't taking jobs from Americans. They are Americans.


Mmm. They are Americans, you say? As in American citizens? Because at best all I'm seeing is that maybe these people are AmericansBecauseArtSaysSo-izens. You're a lawyer, you would have to enlighten me as to what weight being AmericansBecauseArtSaysSo-izens carries in the American legal system. Why are we debating their status here in the US if they're already Americans? You can't debate MY status? What did Chuck and Nancy decide along with the POTUS? Chocolate pie after Chinese food? (blech!, you know that was Trump's call)

Do you want to know a couple of things that REALLY hurts the dreamer's forward progress politically in this country? Number one is asserting that they're Americans when everyone knows they aren't. As American as American citizens? Yeah, thank you for that one. It's really helpful. What they are, as has been pointed out, is illegal aliens. According to the law.

Second thing that doesn't help them one stinking iota is getting all self-righteous, taking yourself SOOOOooo seriously, and going off on people who point out the simple facts surrounding the dreamer's legal status here in the US and then leveling the explosively destructive charges that people who disagree or even oppose granting them full legal status are racist, xenophobic, extremist, etc. You're not helping anyone there.

And this thread is a great example. I started it to highlight a super encouraging moment of bipartisanship that moved the ball potentially all the way down the field for those living in the US under DACA protections. I then admitted that I certainly don't want them to lose their protected status, I don't want ANYONE (other than criminals) to be deported once they're here and established, and that I APPLAUD the actions of the POTUS and the minority leaders to fix this situation, hopefully once and for all.

Now what happened? I don't see tfan as exhibiting xenophobic anything so I step up to say so and hum-hah here I am now pointing out negative shit about the dreamers like, No, Art, actually they aren't Americans. They're illegal aliens, and yeah, I think they actually DO take American jobs. And then you and maybe others here are going to come back with, Hey, jammer, that's because you're a racist and a xenophobe and then people are pissed off and we're going to argue about that until people are pissed off even more.

That's like a pretty good example of some kind of social toxicity. It's also disastrous politics as I HOPE I've shown just using this thread as an example.

Or are you saying nothing need be done about the DACA folks legally? The president, Chuck and Nancy, the congress, they don't need to do anything in this case? The Dreamers are Americans because Art says so and that should be good enough for the other 323 million citizens of the United States.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Does anyone have a government contract to build a wall?


Yes. Four companies. 1.2 BILLION dollars worth of government contracts. Just like when they want to build a new airplane or missile system or other major project. The first phase is the award of multiple design and prototype contracts and then later they choose from among the designs built a final design to be built in quantity.

This isn't a game. They have awarded over a billion dollars in government contracts already.

Denying that is just more denial of reality.


You know, one of the greatest lessons that human beings can learn, internalize, carry with them and never be without is this: You can say something. Doesn't mean it's true. We could work with that in our school systems for at least an entire grade level. So many variations and examples.

Greatest example may be one we all just witnessed.

TV. Runs 24 hours a day on so many channels now it's impossible to give a number. Talk, talk, talk. Voices coming from the screen. So in that giant space you have some news channels and the Weather Channel talking about a coming storm. Think of the chasm that exists between human beings TALKING about an impending hurricane on TV, just microphones picking up someone speaking and firing it out into what is a never ending drone of talk, and the inhumane rip-roaring unpredictable monster that is coming. They say CAT 3 and the people who are even listening say, "Well, I rode out blah blah and it was a CAT 5." You can say it, but it doesn't mean it true! There is just too big of a gap between what some people say, even on the fucking Weather Channel, and the energy created and discharged in a mother fucking hurricane. HURRICANE is all anyone with a brain SHOULD need to hear.

Okay. Got off on a tangent there. Embarassed

So. Four companies have a contract. This is REAL!, you say? lol. Uh. Most people are saying Trump's wall will never be built. Talk, contracts, money changing hands. We're talking about a wall and none of that is a wall. Just sayin'. Trump has said many times, some places it won't be a wall. Some places there already is a wall. I think that's all I was saying. I don't think Trump voters are going all RIGID and shit because the US will probably end up talking lesser measures to further secure the border. Breitbart? Yeah. They need to take a breath. And they're not the only ones.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 4:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Comment on the NYTimes article. Okay, it's mine.

There's a vocal group bashing him for this but for the millions upon millions who voted for Trump and who have stuck with him through what has been a nightmarish 8 months there is probably more a sigh of relief. A significant portion of those people want above all to see this president begin to act like a president and to begin to show that he can accomplish something. The Republican establishment as represented in Congress is I'm sure baffled and torn on this particular deal. On the one hand, they too would like to see something done that moves DACA-negativity safely away from their party, but they are now in full panic mode that Trump is creating a pattern of striking deals with "Chuck and Nancy." Interestingly, on the other side, the LA Times is reporting today that a sampling of San Francisco area residents (20 out of 20 surveyed) support Pelosi and Schumer making deals with Trump. That's a real surprise that cuts against the conventional talk that the resist movement would prevent any Democratic dealmaking with Trump. I guess there's hope after all.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9544



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 6:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Because somebody who has spent their entire life in this country contributing to and building this country and in many instances fighting to protect this country is every bit as much an American as you or me or tfan is.

They aren't taking jobs from Americans. They are Americans.


They haven't spent their entire life in this country or else they actually would be Americans due to the unfortunate law regarding birth in the country making you a citizen (one that most of the world doesn't have). So why claim they have spent their entire life in this country? Why do you feel the need to inaccurately embellish that?

The reason we have the law, one that you don't call xenophobic, extremist or racist - just calls for enforcing it - is that American workers are hurt by immigration. So they try and lessen the damage.Bernie Sanders immediately rejected the idea of open borders "wages would be $2 or $3 per hour". The illegal aliens contribute to keeping American wages low for employers and American workers, not just adding to supply but also working for illegal wages under illegal working conditions. They contribute by taking jobs - including over a million construction jobs - that Americans could have had. But you know that since you, like most advocates for the illegals, do not call for an open border with Latin America. "Come in and work illegally, and then we will give you amnesty at some point" is the desired way. Let's the country have a permanent illegal workforce and underclass.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66774
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 09/15/17 6:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
They haven't spent their entire life in this country or else they actually would be Americans due to the unfortunate law regarding birth that most of the world doesn't have.


Unrestricted jus soli citizenship is common throughout Central and South America. Most places in the world have restricted jus soli, requiring that at least one of the child's parents be a citizen, national or legal permanent resident of the state in question at time of the child's birth, or requiring that at least one parent have resided in the country for a specific period of time. Very few have abolished it altogether.



_________________
Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
tfan



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 7:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:
They haven't spent their entire life in this country or else they actually would be Americans due to the unfortunate law regarding birth that most of the world doesn't have.


Unrestricted jus soli citizenship is common throughout Central and South America. Most places in the world have restricted jus soli, requiring that at least one of the child's parents be a citizen, national or legal permanent resident of the state in question at time of the child's birth, or requiring that at least one parent have resided in the country for a specific period of time. Very few have abolished it altogether.


The Wikipedia article on "Jus soli" does not appear to me to back up your statement. While they list 24 restricted and 33 unrestricted, that still leaves the majority of the countries in the world as not having either. Allowing for the 19 countries for which they don't have definitive information that would make (194 - (24 + 33 + 19) ) 118 that don't.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 9:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Does anyone have a government contract to build a wall?


Yes. Four companies. 1.2 BILLION dollars worth of government contracts. Just like when they want to build a new airplane or missile system or other major project. The first phase is the award of multiple design and prototype contracts and then later they choose from among the designs built a final design to be built in quantity.

This isn't a game. They have awarded over a billion dollars in government contracts already.

Denying that is just more denial of reality.


You know, one of the greatest lessons that human beings can learn, internalize, carry with them and never be without is this: You can say something. Doesn't mean it's true. We could work with that in our school systems for at least an entire grade level. So many variations and examples.

Greatest example may be one we all just witnessed.

TV. Runs 24 hours a day on so many channels now it's impossible to give a number. Talk, talk, talk. Voices coming from the screen. So in that giant space you have some news channels and the Weather Channel talking about a coming storm. Think of the chasm that exists between human beings TALKING about an impending hurricane on TV, just microphones picking up someone speaking and firing it out into what is a never ending drone of talk, and the inhumane rip-roaring unpredictable monster that is coming. They say CAT 3 and the people who are even listening say, "Well, I rode out blah blah and it was a CAT 5." You can say it, but it doesn't mean it true! There is just too big of a gap between what some people say, even on the fucking Weather Channel, and the energy created and discharged in a mother fucking hurricane. HURRICANE is all anyone with a brain SHOULD need to hear.

Okay. Got off on a tangent there. Embarassed

So. Four companies have a contract. This is REAL!, you say? lol. Uh. Most people are saying Trump's wall will never be built. Talk, contracts, money changing hands. We're talking about a wall and none of that is a wall. Just sayin'. Trump has said many times, some places it won't be a wall. Some places there already is a wall. I think that's all I was saying. I don't think Trump voters are going all RIGID and shit because the US will probably end up talking lesser measures to further secure the border. Breitbart? Yeah. They need to take a breath. And they're not the only ones.


Fedbizops is the official US govt portal for all US government contracts. It's where one goes to find RFPs, amendments, announcements, and other official contractual documents.

I linked the page for this particular procurement above. You can continue to deny it's reality but then you're just going to look silly.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 9:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


I thought you wanted people to argue on the basis of facts and law and not on phony rhetoric.



Where is the law that says that any person not a US citizen is not an American? That's just your political construct.

Not a US citizen means just that, not a US citizen. That's all it means.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66774
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 09/15/17 10:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bernie Sanders immediately rejected the idea of open borders "wages would be $2 or $3 per hour"


Interesting, considering that in the real world it has worked in exactly the opposite direction. There were no restrictions on the number of Mexicans who could immigrate to the US until the late 1960's, at which point US wages began a stagnation that continues to the present day.



_________________
Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 10:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
There is and has been for decades a wall in many areas where a wall is what was deemed viable. Fencing and natural barriers exist elsewhere along the border. All of that needs better funding and technology and whatever 'force multipliers' are useful in continuing to secure the border. Trump's wall, as far as his base is concerned and most Americans who oppose 'open borders' is a metaphor or code for a more effective effort to curtail illegal border crossings.


Actually it's supposed to be a real wall, constructed out of hardened concrete, rebar and steel, and would be artistically beautiful. Or so Trump said last December.


For the life of me I don't understand your point, Art. This appears to be just an internet rabbit-hole argument we're having. You guys do these. I don't do these. So tell me, please, what is your point? That Trump was supposed to build a real wall because he said so last December? Again, I'm lost when it comes to your point. Politicians say many things. Trump is probably going to be as bad as it gets in terms of keeping promises.

Many if not most Trump voters might have heard Trump's promises on the wall differently than you did. You hate Trump and they don't. You obviously don't want a wall or tighter border security and they do. They elected a guy who, in their eyes, at least, dared to speak the harsh rhetoric on the issue of immigration they longed to hear from a candidate. My point, not a rabbit-hope argument over a specific detail, was that, as frustrating and inexplicable as it may be to you, Trump's not going to lose poll numbers because he's softened on DACA or is putting off building a wall. His voters will stick with him and his poll numbers are going to start to go up as he begins to display some bipartisan flexibility. Americans want to see that far more than they want a wall.

So what is your point showing me contracts? Contracts aren't a wall. But Trump may build a wall and he might not. He will definitely shore up the existing barriers along the border and if his administration is devoted to that and he's effective and the country sees that then Trump voters will be delighted. I said that it doesn't have to be an actual wall for the entire length of the border and that has been Trump's modified position. Is he all over the place? Always and on every subject. This is a pretty good example of arguing over absolutely nothing.

Are you suggesting that Trump voters SHOULD be mad at Trump because he isn't keeping his promise from last December? Just truly struggling to find your point.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bernie Sanders immediately rejected the idea of open borders "wages would be $2 or $3 per hour"


Interesting, considering that in the real world it has worked in exactly the opposite direction. There were no restrictions on the number of Mexicans who could immigrate to the US until the late 1960's, at which point US wages began a stagnation that continues to the present day.


But, Mexicans are only one component of our immigration (worker import) situation (and we had mass deportations of Mexicans in the Great Depression and in the 50's under Eisenhower). Our immigration rate has been higher since the 1965 change in immigration law that went into effect in 1968 resulting in greater inflows.

The foreign-born percentage of the United States:
Code:
1960 5.43%
1970 4.74%
1980 6.22%
1990 7.95%
2000 11.05%
2010 12.94%


But there are other factors, notably job export. We have moved more of our jobs overseas over the years, particularly since China joined the World Trade Organization in 2000 and that could stall wages on its own. But job export makes population growth contra-indicated.

Open borders would very likely increase the immigration rates to unbelievable amounts. In 2010 we had just under 40 million legal foreign-born residents. A survey taken in Mexico found that 1/3 of Mexicans would like to move to the United States. That is 42 million people we would get from just one country. The rest of Latin America, at least Central America would probably match Mexicans in desire. China has 80 to 100 million migrant workers who roam the country looking for work who would probably prefer to roam the US. India/Bangladesh/Pakistan could probably supply a quick impoverished 100 million. Africa has huge population growth and poverty problems and would have untold millions coming. It would be like nothing we have ever seen. And they wouldn't be coming into an agricultural country with undeveloped land to farm like in the 1800's and earlier. They would come into over-crowded urban areas. There wouldn't be enough unskilled jobs for the rush of people, and those lucky enough to find one would not be making more than minimum wage if legally employed. Illegal under-the-table cash wages would be well below minimum wage, even if they didn't hit the $2 or $3 Sanders predicted.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 9:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I guess this was always destined to be another immigration thread. So in a Maggie Haberman piece from yesterday fleshing out the details of the dinner between Trump and Chuck and Nancy, there's this:

To sweeten such a deal, Mr. Schumer offered his support for enhanced border security measures, already backed by Republicans and Democrats alike, but said he would pull out of any agreement that included funding for a wall on the Mexican border.

At that point, according to two people familiar with the exchange, one of whom was in the room, Mr. Trump called on his chief of staff, John F. Kelly, the former Homeland Security secretary who has long warned against instability on the southern border.

Mr. Kelly launched into a passionate call for stouter border defenses, including his general support for a beefed-up barrier, offering a remarkably pessimistic view of Mexico’s security situation and political stability.

He likened Mexico, one of the United States’ most important trading and law enforcement partners, to Venezuela under the regime of Hugo Chávez, the former leader, suggesting it was on the verge of a collapse that would have repercussions in the United States, according to two people who attended the meeting.


John Kelly certainly has more intelligence, by any definition, than I do. But this doesn't sound quite right to me. That said, I'm also pessimistic as all hell about the future of what's going to happen along that border if this country doesn't take some quite drastic measures to secure it. Going forward, this isn't, for me, an issue about cheap labor. AT ALL. Not that that isn't also a huge concern in this incredibly complex situation regarding the border and immigration.

But a totally secure border is going to be extremely important to all of us in the coming decades. I don't know that Mexico will collapse under the weight of corruption and things will get as bad as they have in Venezuela where virtually everyone, even the affluent, have been reduced to scrounging for the basics. In my eyes, the vast majority of Mexico has existed in an already failed condition with widespread poverty a fact of daily life everywhere there. But, I would put my money on someone at that level knowing many things that I can't know.

I've been of the mind that this country has to PARTNER with Mexico to a degree that we never have. We need to help them secure their OWN southern borders for our own sake and provide incentives and resources for them to cut down on the smugglers who traffic in dirt poor people looking to get to the US and often from countries to the south of Mexico. Because even if Mexico doesn't collapse, other countries are already going down that road. We are a comparatively rich nation. The exodus of human beings into the US from failed states is something that is going to be an existential threat to the America that we're desperately trying to hang onto now.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 9:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I read a cautionary note about Mexico once with regards to oil. They aren't a big oil exporter like Venezuela, but their oil company - Pemex - is state-run and provides a lot of revenue for the government. And oil production in Mexico has peaked.



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