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Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/14/17 3:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree that Stokes is the Liberty player with the highest trade value. I would be stunned if any team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes. I like Stokes, but I certainly wouldn't.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
Maybe the Stokes from her rookie year gets you back the #5 straight up in this draft, but at this point thre's a reason that New York fans are decidedly willing to dump her. She's spent all this season as the backup to a player Lib fans are also trying to get shot of. She seems like she'd be a nice fit in Seattle, but don't overpay for a center again to get her.


I agreed with everything up to "she'd be a nice fit in Seattle." Strikes me the last thing they need is another too-short center, especially when this one lacks the offensive output of the current one.


Stokes is bigger than Langhorne and more athletic than Swords. There simply aren't that many 6' 5" plus athletic centers out there so Stokes id probably the next best thing. Combining her with Langhorne as a 2 headed center is a good option for Seattle. Who else is out there that would be better for Seattle?


Desperation because there's nobody better available doesn't make her a good fit. It just means there's no good choices.

They might be a "two headed" center only if you could play them both at the same time and have them count as only one player. But since you can't, they both remain seriously flawed.

Adding Stokes wouldn't help their situation. It would just waste whatever they give up to get her.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 5:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I agree that Stokes is the Liberty player with the highest trade value. I would be stunned if any team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes. I like Stokes, but I certainly wouldn't.


+____________

Actually, on further thought, nobody should, but I should never be "stunned" by dumb WNBA transactions.

Somebody might even though you and I certainly wouldn't.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
I agree that Stokes is the Liberty player with the highest trade value. I would be stunned if any team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes. I like Stokes, but I certainly wouldn't.


+____________

Actually, on further thought, nobody should, but I should never be "stunned" by dumb WNBA transactions.

Somebody might even though you and I certainly wouldn't.


It's worth noting that dumb transactions are hardly limited to the WNBA. Smile

Still, your point is valid. I'd be stunned if some team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes, but it would be far from the first time I've been stunned in this way.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 7:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Somebody traded the #6 pick for Swords



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I agree that Stokes is the Liberty player with the highest trade value. I would be stunned if any team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes. I like Stokes, but I certainly wouldn't.


I know the coaching staff was expecting her to have a great year and would love to know what happened. I suspect they are not ready to give up on her though.

That being said, I don't want the Storm to try and get her with that #5 pick which is a lot more valuable this year than the #6 was last year.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/14/17 11:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
I agree that Stokes is the Liberty player with the highest trade value. I would be stunned if any team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes. I like Stokes, but I certainly wouldn't.


+____________

Actually, on further thought, nobody should, but I should never be "stunned" by dumb WNBA transactions.

Somebody might even though you and I certainly wouldn't.


It's worth noting that dumb transactions are hardly limited to the WNBA. Smile

Still, your point is valid. I'd be stunned if some team would trade the #5 pick for Stokes, but it would be far from the first time I've been stunned in this way.


Which is why I started this whole discussion with Stokes and #10 for #5.

Putting it in player terms lets say Stokes and Nurse for Deshields, that doesn't seem too crazy for either team.

I like Stokes and I still think Seattle with Stokes and Langhorne at center, will be better than Seattle with Swords and Langhorne at center.

Swords seemed like a good fit last year and is 6' 6" and a rim protector but it didn't work. (Also Seattle traded their #6 pick for her. Now maybe regretting that mistake the Storm will want their first round pick) but I think Stokes' greater speed might be a better fit for Seattle, and Kiah is better at defending the Parker/Ogwumike of the world and even the Griner and Fowls of the world which Seattle will need help with if they want to compete with those teams. I think Seattle is win now and a defensive post to play with Stewart is a priority. I don't see them thinking that drafting Russell will be the best option. SO I think trading down and getting a solid defensive post is a good move.

This probably fits better in the Seattle thread but if not Stokes than who would be a good trade or draft target? Lavender? Kizer? Ch. Parker? Pedersen? Boyette? maybe Boyette but pretty risky and you wouldn't be also getting a #10 pick, maybe a #16 pick, but I'd rather have Stokes and #10. It is a hypothetical so who knows, but I think Stokes and #10 for #5 is a very viable trade.


zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Liberty fans were so against trading Stokes for Sims last off season Laughing ....Just like dallas fans were against trading Sims for Dolson

When you have a void,fill it...when you have excess at one position but a need at another,trade the excess to fill the void....These wnba GM/HC are so freaking stupid.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 11:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Liberty fans were so against trading Stokes for Sims last off season Laughing ....Just like dallas fans were against trading Sims for Dolson

When you have a void,fill it...when you have excess at one position but a need at another,trade the excess to fill the void....These wnba GM/HC are so freaking stupid.


Now, Powers for Stokes. That would make sense from Dallas's standpoint and would certainly seem to meet your theory.


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Liberty fans were so against trading Stokes for Sims last off season


Wouldn't you be? Sims as a PG isn't really her strong suit and NYL already have enough combo guards that are on the short side. There was the notion that Sims may be washed up after that 2016 season. Even you were trying to trade her to every team. I know your plan was to get a post for Sims, but what Dallas ended up doing is getting a younger bigger guard who wouldn't step on Diggins' toes.

zune69 wrote:
Just like dallas fans were against trading Sims for Dolson


It takes two to trade, so why would Chicago make this trade? They'd be stuck relying on Boyette, overloaded at guard, plus they'd only one have lottery pick. You must have made the assumption that Coates would be good to go for Chicago this season.

zune69 wrote:
When you have a void,fill it...when you have excess at one position but a need at another,trade the excess to fill the void....These wnba GM/HC are so freaking stupid.


Cooper listened to you and it may have cost him his job. Wink

Zune, every time a team loses a game (and I mean EVERY time) you're coming up with trades on the heels of that loss to fix their problems. Never mind that somebody could have just had a bad game or whatever, or there may be a good player out on a season ending injury. This isn't fantasy sports where you swap players weekly and your problems are solved. There's concepts in real life sports such as chemistry and continuity that seem foreign to you.

Now I can't guarantee that Washington will ever have great chemistry because that's one element Delle Donne doesn't bring to any team, but they could be helped with a few years of continuity.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 12:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Wouldn't you be? Sims as a PG isn't really her strong suit and NYL already have enough combo guards that are on the short side. There was the notion that Sims may be washed up after that 2016 season. Even you were trying to trade her to every team. I know your plan was to get a post for Sims, but what Dallas ended up doing is getting a younger bigger guard who wouldn't step on Diggins' toes.


Ny still needs a guard that can break down the defense,get to the rim,and defend.Sims can do all three......I don't believe dallas would have drafted Akhator without having the #4 pick in their back pocket....at least I hope not.Dallas imo had their eyes set on Coates.But once chicago made their pick,they Panicked,and selected Ahkator higher than she was projected to go.

Shades wrote:
It takes two to trade, so why would Chicago make this trade? They'd be stuck relying on Boyette, overloaded at guard, plus they'd only one have lottery pick. You must have made the assumption that Coates would be good to go for Chicago this season.


You're 100% right....but after the fact.Everyone thought Boyette would have a break out season.And chicago had not yet drafted Coates.Every poster on rebkell thought dallas was going to take Coates or Jones with one of their two first round picks......and i'd still take Sims > Pondexter

Shades wrote:
Cooper listened to you and it may have cost him his job. Wink


Unfortunately Cooper acquired a player that was having a terrible season,and played her limited minutes on top of it.

Shades wrote:
Zune, every time a team loses a game (and I mean EVERY time) you're coming up with trades on the heels of that loss to fix their problems. Never mind that somebody could have just had a bad game or whatever, or there may be a good player out on a season ending injury. This isn't fantasy sports where you swap players weekly and your problems are solved. There's concepts in real life sports such as chemistry and continuity that seem foreign to you.


I was strongly against the Edd/Meesseman combination from the jump.A Dolson/Delle donne frontcourt always made more sense.My Meesseman trade proposals is just me beating the dead horse.....I will continue to beat the dead horse until the problem gets rectified.

For 5 years I beat the dead horse about the sparks playing a big lineup.Agler fix the situation,sparks win the champion,I'm happy.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 12:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are also other factors in trades that can't be seen from the outside. Some players bring more to the table than games show, and some bring less. For example, a very good player who doesn't work hard in practice will make it hard to get everyone to work hard, so maybe a coach is more willing to trade her.

Or a player and coach just don't get along, or a player and the star work well together.

Lots of variables ...



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Aladyyn



Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Wouldn't you be? Sims as a PG isn't really her strong suit and NYL already have enough combo guards that are on the short side. There was the notion that Sims may be washed up after that 2016 season. Even you were trying to trade her to every team. I know your plan was to get a post for Sims, but what Dallas ended up doing is getting a younger bigger guard who wouldn't step on Diggins' toes.


Ny still needs a guard that can break down the defense,get to the rim,and defend.Sims can do all three......I don't believe dallas would have drafted Akhator without having the #4 pick in their back pocket....at least I hope not.Dallas imo had their eyes set on Coates.But once chicago made their pick,they Panicked,and selected Ahkator higher than she was projected to go.

Shades wrote:
It takes two to trade, so why would Chicago make this trade? They'd be stuck relying on Boyette, overloaded at guard, plus they'd only one have lottery pick. You must have made the assumption that Coates would be good to go for Chicago this season.


You're 100% right....but after the fact.Everyone thought Boyette would have a break out season.And chicago had not yet drafted Coates.Every poster on rebkell thought dallas was going to take Coates or Jones with one of their two first round picks......and i'd still take Sims > Pondexter

Shades wrote:
Cooper listened to you and it may have cost him his job. Wink


Unfortunately Cooper acquired a player that was having a terrible season,and played her limited minutes on top of it.

Shades wrote:
Zune, every time a team loses a game (and I mean EVERY time) you're coming up with trades on the heels of that loss to fix their problems. Never mind that somebody could have just had a bad game or whatever, or there may be a good player out on a season ending injury. This isn't fantasy sports where you swap players weekly and your problems are solved. There's concepts in real life sports such as chemistry and continuity that seem foreign to you.


I was strongly against the Edd/Meesseman combination from the jump.A Dolson/Delle donne frontcourt always made more sense.My Meesseman trade proposals is just me beating the dead horse.....I will continue to beat the dead horse until the problem gets rectified.

For 5 years I beat the dead horse about the sparks playing a big lineup.Agler fix the situation,sparks win the champion,I'm happy.


Save your breath. Emma is not getting traded. Period.

But hey, Thibault was not willing to trade her for EDD but that DeWanna Bonner, she's definitely worth it! Laughing


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
There are also other factors in trades that can't be seen from the outside. Some players bring more to the table than games show, and some bring less. For example, a very good player who doesn't work hard in practice will make it hard to get everyone to work hard, so maybe a coach is more willing to trade her.

Or a player and coach just don't get along, or a player and the star work well together.

Lots of variables ...


Yes. Exactly right. And many or all the same issues apply to signing or not signing free agents and to drafting or not drafting players.

It's the same issue for me as when fans issue definitive pronouncements about what a player "is like" personally based on perceptions from afar or very limited interactions with the player.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
zune69 wrote:
When you have a void,fill it...when you have excess at one position but a need at another,trade the excess to fill the void....These wnba GM/HC are so freaking stupid.


Cooper listened to you and it may have cost him his job. Wink


The Dream didn't have an excess of first round picks.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
zune69 wrote:
When you have a void,fill it...when you have excess at one position but a need at another,trade the excess to fill the void....These wnba GM/HC are so freaking stupid.


Cooper listened to you and it may have cost him his job. Wink


The Dream didn't have an excess of first round picks.


Yeah..filling a void by trading away excess was my original point.


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
I was strongly against the Edd/Meesseman combination from the jump.A Dolson/Delle donne frontcourt always made more sense.


Hey, so was I. Meesseman and Delle Donne are very similar except that Delle Donne is very good at getting to the FT line more than she deserves. Both low assists forwards. Not sure where they're at this season. But Meesseman is Thibault's pride and joy.... the one draft pick he knocked out if the park. It's hard to see him wanting to trade her, and even harder to see her wanting to get traded, which can be important to foreign players who aren't as indebted to the WNBA.

zune69 wrote:
For 5 years I beat the dead horse about the sparks playing a big lineup.Agler fix the situation,sparks win the champion,I'm happy.


It was you who helped the Sparks to a championship? I thought it was Miller. There was an article that went over how Miller's half a year with Parker helped her become a better facilitator much like he helped Thomas in Connecticut. OKAY! I'm really buying that one. Razz Thomas even said she's doing the same things she did in college.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
zune69 wrote:
I was strongly against the Edd/Meesseman combination from the jump.A Dolson/Delle donne frontcourt always made more sense.


Hey, so was I. Meesseman and Delle Donne are very similar except that Delle Donne is very good at getting to the FT line more than she deserves. Both low assists forwards. Not sure where they're at this season. But Meesseman is Thibault's pride and joy.... the one draft pick he knocked out if the park. It's hard to see him wanting to trade her, and even harder to see her wanting to get traded, which can be important to foreign players who aren't as indebted to the WNBA.


Forwards with more APG than Meesseman in 2017:
Alyssa Thomas
Candace Parker
Maya Moore


zune69



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 1:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
It was you who helped the Sparks to a championship? I thought it was Miller. There was an article that went over how Miller's half a year with Parker helped her become a better facilitator much like he helped Thomas in Connecticut. OKAY! I'm really buying that one. Razz Thomas even said she's doing the same things she did in college.


Miller also thought Akhator was a legit 1st rd pick Laughing Laughing .....but so did I... Embarassed Embarassed


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 2:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Shades wrote:
zune69 wrote:
I was strongly against the Edd/Meesseman combination from the jump.A Dolson/Delle donne frontcourt always made more sense.


Hey, so was I. Meesseman and Delle Donne are very similar except that Delle Donne is very good at getting to the FT line more than she deserves. Both low assists forwards. Not sure where they're at this season. But Meesseman is Thibault's pride and joy.... the one draft pick he knocked out if the park. It's hard to see him wanting to trade her, and even harder to see her wanting to get traded, which can be important to foreign players who aren't as indebted to the WNBA.


Forwards with more APG than Meesseman in 2017:
Alyssa Thomas
Candace Parker
Maya Moore


This year Meesseman has improved her assist rate and Delle Donne has fallen off ever so slightly.

Also, these two haven't played all that many games together. Meesseman missed games early on for Eurobasket and Delle Donne missed games late in the season with injuries (like clockwork). Zune wants to hit the panic button (surprise), but at this point I'm preaching continuity and building up the depth.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
Shades wrote:
zune69 wrote:
I was strongly against the Edd/Meesseman combination from the jump.A Dolson/Delle donne frontcourt always made more sense.


Hey, so was I. Meesseman and Delle Donne are very similar except that Delle Donne is very good at getting to the FT line more than she deserves. Both low assists forwards. Not sure where they're at this season. But Meesseman is Thibault's pride and joy.... the one draft pick he knocked out if the park. It's hard to see him wanting to trade her, and even harder to see her wanting to get traded, which can be important to foreign players who aren't as indebted to the WNBA.


Forwards with more APG than Meesseman in 2017:
Alyssa Thomas
Candace Parker
Maya Moore


This year Meesseman has improved her assist rate and Delle Donne has fallen off ever so slightly.

Also, these two haven't played all that many games together. Meesseman missed games early on for Eurobasket and Delle Donne missed games late in the season with injuries (like clockwork). Zune wants to hit the panic button (surprise), but at this point I'm preaching continuity and building up the depth.


I'm not a Mystics fan. They just eliminated my team! But I believe it's way too soon to conclude that Delle Donne and Meeseman can't play together. Moreover, it's often the case that when you trade a player as good as Meeseman you have to settle for lesser value.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The boring yet realistic assessment of what NY 2018 will look like

Hartley/Boyd/L. Allen
Prince/Rodgers
Zellous/Raincock-Ekunwe/(#10) Nurse, Nared or Atkins
Chalres/Vaughn
Swords/Stokes

NRE gets minutes at the 3 and 4, draft someone who can play SF at #10, pick up Swords as an UFA. Mix and match Stokes and Vaughn at center and PF.


toad455



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm thinking Vaughn is gone. Don't think Laimbeer was happy with her this season. I still like a trade involving Vaughn & Rodgers to get either a higher pick or a SF. And bringing back Swords should be a priority, too.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

Also, these two haven't played all that many games together. Meesseman missed games early on for Eurobasket and Delle Donne missed games late in the season with injuries (like clockwork). Zune wants to hit the panic button (surprise), but at this point I'm preaching continuity and building up the depth.


I havn't always been right(Akhator,N.Johnson,etc),,but I think I'm batting better than .500 when it comes to my predictions.This season alone I was right on:

Diggins having a better season without Sims.
Sims being a better player in LA
Griner having a Breakout season
Seattle being overrated
Connecticut not going far in the playoffs
Zahui B taking a step back

I havn't done too bad in the prediction department.

I was also wrong about how good Connecticut would be.

But at least I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong,unlike like some people on this board.




Last edited by zune69 on 09/15/17 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/15/17 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:
There are also other factors in trades that can't be seen from the outside. Some players bring more to the table than games show, and some bring less. For example, a very good player who doesn't work hard in practice will make it hard to get everyone to work hard, so maybe a coach is more willing to trade her.

Or a player and coach just don't get along, or a player and the star work well together.

Lots of variables ...


Yes. Exactly right. And many or all the same issues apply to signing or not signing free agents and to drafting or not drafting players.

It's the same issue for me as when fans issue definitive pronouncements about what a player "is like" personally based on perceptions from afar or very limited interactions with the player.


So true ...

Sportswriters also get a very crafted version of a person, especially older, intelligent players. The interactions are brief and structured.

Even a long-form piece based on a couple interviews doesn't necessarily tell the writer or reader that much. It's not that hard to put on a show for a couple hours.

I would maintain, though, that a great way to really know what a player (or anyone) is like is to play competitive pickup basketball with them a few times. It's pretty hard to hide in that situation.

To sum up: There's a physical side to every team/group, and there's a psychological side, and both are important to maximize the chances of success.



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