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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11225
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Posted: 09/13/17 9:55 am ::: What to do about reviews? |
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OK, the reviews in the WNBA (and all major sports, really) are annoying and take way too long ...
But the justifications are twofold:
1) Player safety. It's pretty hard to argue against protecting players, and one of the best ways to do that is to identify and punish dangerous play. Things happen very quickly in basketball, and sometimes off the ball, and officials have to watch for a large number of potential fouls and violations all at the same time.
The concussion issue is not a trivial one, and penalizing plays that can cause concussions is, again, hard to argue against. Such penalties and punishment make players more conscious of, and careful about, contacting an opponent's head.
2) Getting it right. The cacophony of complaints about the officiating in the Phoenix-LA game is echoed at every level of every sport when the refs have a bad game. At the upper levels, there are options available to correct egregious errors, but those options take time and interrupt the flow of the game.
So a decision must be made about balancing the desire to get it right, and the desire to keep the game moving.
All that said, what's the solution? (And no, getting better refs is not a solution unless you can point out who they are and why they're not working in the league now and what it would take to get them to work in the league. And if you have video reviews, they will take time -- even the NFL and NBA, with all their resources, can't do it any quicker.)
Does the league step back from player safety and worry less about concussions?
Is there less concern about getting it right?
It doesn't seem to me that there's an obvious solution here -- or at least a practical one. For example, if WNBA refs were paid $500,000 a season, I'm guessing we'd have better officiating after a while, or if we had a team of video reviewers constantly looking at plays in the previous minute so that if there was a review, they'd already have the answer.
But really, what's the next step? What can realistically be done about the video review issue?
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24409 Location: London
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Posted: 09/13/17 10:21 am ::: |
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As I've mentioned earlier this season, the first, most basic change, is that you can do the vast majority of these reviews during timeouts and breaks between quarters. Outside of the really egregious stuff, all that any of these plays result in is one bonus free throw. This isn't FIBA basketball where a technical could change possession. So watch the video when we aren't all sitting around waiting for the game to get going again.
Call the game as you see it, rather than going "oh, someone's holding their face, I should stop the game to see what happened", play it out until the next break - then watch the video if you feel it's necessary. Hell, you could have someone checking the tape back at head office while the game's going on, then inform the officials during the next break without them having to do anything. Or during the playoffs, that reserve official who sits at the table doing nothing could also do it. |
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5428 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 09/13/17 10:25 am ::: |
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People who follow and support various sports on all levels must accept that refs are human and they do make mistakes. Every fan wants their team to receive justice and fair calls by all refs. Simple fact is refs do not see every violation committed by players. Sports like football and basketball have a high rate speed. Both sports have a high volume of players in close proximity of each other which makes it difficult to see everything.
All fans need to accept that mistakes made by refs are a part of game just like injuries to players.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67139 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/13/17 10:29 am ::: |
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Rock Hard wrote: |
Every fan wants their team to receive justice and fair calls by all refs |
Fans want the calls to go for their team and against the opposing team. Fair is for when other teams are playing.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 09/13/17 10:30 am ::: |
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Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
And what purpose was served in the late game last night? They had a ridiculous number of reviews to see if there was a flagrant but didn't call any flagrants that I recall. So what was the point of holding up the game? Certainly not "player safety".
If they'd T up Parker and Taurasi and some others for their gross over-acting, maybe the ridiculous flops would end and they'd have no reason to stop the game to look for something where nothing actually happened.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5428 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 09/13/17 10:39 am ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Rock Hard wrote: |
Every fan wants their team to receive justice and fair calls by all refs |
Fans want the calls to go for their team and against the opposing team. Fair is for when other teams are playing. |
They need to find a new hobby. All the complaining, bitching, and moaning will not make the refs better or get every call to benefit their favorite team. These people need to take up pottery.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1566 Location: Czech Republic
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2830 Location: New York
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Posted: 09/13/17 11:28 am ::: |
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Rock Hard wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Rock Hard wrote: |
Every fan wants their team to receive justice and fair calls by all refs |
Fans want the calls to go for their team and against the opposing team. Fair is for when other teams are playing. |
They need to find a new hobby. All the complaining, bitching, and moaning will not make the refs better or get every call to benefit their favorite team. These people need to take up pottery. |
I think the players need to relax too, all of them. The amount of griping, snipping, bitching and staring at officials is totally out of control. Friggin millennials. They've never been told no.....and this is the world we live in, unfortunately.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/13/17 11:58 am ::: |
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ucbart wrote: |
Rock Hard wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Rock Hard wrote: |
Every fan wants their team to receive justice and fair calls by all refs |
Fans want the calls to go for their team and against the opposing team. Fair is for when other teams are playing. |
They need to find a new hobby. All the complaining, bitching, and moaning will not make the refs better or get every call to benefit their favorite team. These people need to take up pottery. |
I think the players need to relax too, all of them. The amount of griping, snipping, bitching and staring at officials is totally out of control. Friggin millennials. They've never been told no.....and this is the world we live in, unfortunately. |
Meh. That's not on the players, at least at the professional level (in college and before there are different expectations). Players say things, or bitch at, refs because it gets results. The same reason they "sell" fouls. And their job is to win games.
On the other hand, the league and the refs have a mechanism to stop players from doing this. If they want it to stop, tell the olayers there will be zero tolerance for this sort of behavior and start handing out techs left and right. And be just as quick with a second T. After the worst offenders have been booted from a game or two, these actions will stop.
But you really can't blame the players when the league and refs are allowing it. Their job is to do whatever they can within the rules to win games.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11225
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Posted: 09/13/17 12:25 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
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Cowards? How many games have you officiated? How many hostile crowds have you faced? How many threats have you heard? How many large individuals have gotten two inches from your face and screamed at you?
The cowards are the ones without whistles who complain all the time but then say "Oh, I'd never do that." Well, if you're afraid to do it, then don't criticize.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/13/17 12:27 pm ::: |
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Rock Hard wrote: |
People who follow and support various sports on all levels must accept that refs are human and they do make mistakes. Every fan wants their team to receive justice and fair calls by all refs. Simple fact is refs do not see every violation committed by players. Sports like football and basketball have a high rate speed. Both sports have a high volume of players in close proximity of each other which makes it difficult to see everything.
All fans need to accept that mistakes made by refs are a part of game just like injuries to players. |
You're right, but I believe most fans are simply ridiculous. I've sat at baseball stadiums and watched fans from the upper deck and well into right field absolutely incensed about a ball/strike call. Because obviously they saw it more clearly from 900 miles away than the home plate umpire did right behind the plate.
Baseball umpires, basketball referees, and the rest of us make mistakes. But fans just want every close call to go for their team. Period. How many times has anyone been at a game--any sport, any level--and heard a home team fan say that a call that went FOR the fan's team was wrong?
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/13/17 12:28 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
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Cowards? How many games have you officiated? How many hostile crowds have you faced? How many threats have you heard? How many large individuals have gotten two inches from your face and screamed at you?
The cowards are the ones without whistles who complain all the time but then say "Oh, I'd never do that." Well, if you're afraid to do it, then don't criticize. |
Well said, Clay. I completely agree.
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sportsfan48
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 1228
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Posted: 09/13/17 1:14 pm ::: |
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This is a great topic. I have been bothered by the level of skill in our officiating crew for a very long time. There are some officials who are fairly good but most cannot officiate to the level of the skill on the floor. That is why you see so much complaining from the more elite players, IMO.
The review process definitely needs to be "reviewed" and revised in the off season. While it provides a good service and is done with the proper idea of "fairness" and protection in mind, it reeks havoc to the flow of the game and the overall entertainment factor. When you have diehard, long time season ticket holders not renewing their tickets because the game is not fun to watch anymore, it is a problem. And the problem is not the "product" or players, it is the process.
My suggestion is to have an other official at each game that does reviews while the game is still going. If a flagrant foul is warranted, it can still be addressed, not as timely, but I am not sure that matters. It can still be addressed in a reasonable time. This other official can review all kinds of plays or just the ones the officials on the floor tell them too. The only time this would be a problem, IMO is if there is a fight on the court. That would require a stop in play.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16467 Location: Holland
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Posted: 09/13/17 2:16 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
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Cowards? How many games have you officiated? How many hostile crowds have you faced? How many threats have you heard? How many large individuals have gotten two inches from your face and screamed at you?
The cowards are the ones without whistles who complain all the time but then say "Oh, I'd never do that." Well, if you're afraid to do it, then don't criticize. |
They are using it as a crutch though and i ref games myself. Its getting out of hand. But i also have to say that more players are grabbing their faces and flopping IMO because they know that the refs are going to review it and are throwing the hostile acts around. Sometimes you get in the face by accident in a game and often its nothing. You dont have to label every contact
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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Brinx
Joined: 03 Oct 2013 Posts: 874 Location: CA
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Posted: 09/13/17 2:27 pm ::: |
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If they handed out serious fines or Techs for all the flops and acting then that would significantly help the problem. Right now the system rewards people for falling to the ground and holding their face.
I also think more transparency about what the league is doing to try and improve the problems would help. They don't have to necessarily give out a list of mistakes but they could be more open and acknowledge that the refs are reviewing a significant number of common fouls that are disruptive to the game and that they are working on ways to better distinguish what needs to be reviewed and what doesn't.
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 3629
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Posted: 09/13/17 3:33 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
And what purpose was served in the late game last night? They had a ridiculous number of reviews to see if there was a flagrant but didn't call any flagrants that I recall. So what was the point of holding up the game? Certainly not "player safety".
If they'd T up Parker and Taurasi and some others for their gross over-acting, maybe the ridiculous flops would end and they'd have no reason to stop the game to look for something where nothing actually happened. |
Include Nneka and Alana in that group last night. Alana threw her head back when she wasn't even hit. Several players do that so it looks like they have been hit above the shoulder. Flops do need to get a big fine and a T no matter what team they play on. It really needs to stop!
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 09/13/17 4:00 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
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Cowards? How many games have you officiated? How many hostile crowds have you faced? How many threats have you heard? How many large individuals have gotten two inches from your face and screamed at you?
The cowards are the ones without whistles who complain all the time but then say "Oh, I'd never do that." Well, if you're afraid to do it, then don't criticize. |
Actually, enough to realize that I wasn't any good at it, so I stopped. I wasn't afraid of it, I just wasn't good at it. I had way too much of a tendency to get lost in watching the game that I'd lose focus on the individual plays and violations. And I knew I wasn't any good at it, so (unlike too many of these WNBA refs) I was honest enough to stop doing it.
But I stand by my comments. Not making the call and immediately going to the replay is, in most of these instances, just an easy way to avoid making a decision. Gee, I don't have any confidence, and I don't want to be criticized, so I'll get my two other colleagues to go with me to the replay monitor so we can take five minutes to look at the replays and then we can all make a joint decision -- it won't be just me. Yeah, that's courageous.
Yes, they're cowards. If they had any guts, they'd go ahead and make the call and stand by it. The rules don't require absolute certainty. They provide repeatedly that instant replay is warranted if the official is not "reasonably certain." Among other things, they provide for replay if "Officials are not reasonably certain whether a personal foul called at any time during a game met the criteria for a flagrant foul." Well, I submit that in virtually every one one of those calls last night, they should have been "reasonably certain" of the right answer in real time. They just lacked the guts to go ahead and make the call and live with it.
And none of them had the guts to call the outlandish overacting flops like we saw repeatedly last night. The rule has been in effect for five years now. Did anyone tell the officials it exists? It's suppose to prohibit any conduct that "reasonably appears to be intended to cause the game officials to call a foul on another player."
The primary factor to be used in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether her physical reaction to an action of another player (whether or not that action resulted in contact) is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force, direction or nature of the action of the other player. For example, a player who lunges, flails or falls following minimal contact with an opposing player, or lunges, flails or falls following contact with an opposing player in a direction different from the direction of the contact (in either case, for reasons that could not reasonably be attributed to the player being off balance when the contact occurs), will be considered to have committed a “flop.”
You don't think Parker's flailing around every time she felt a mild breeze qualifies? How many times do you see these officials step up and call this?
And if they can't stand fans yelling at them, they shouldn't be officiating. If they don't like players yelling at them, call a technical. That'll shut them up quickly. If hostile crowds and players yelling can so easily intimidate these folks from doing their job, then they shouldn't have the job. I never said I'd be good at it. I just said - accurately - that they're cowards.
Soccer was being ruined by constant flopping. They have finally started sternly enforcing the rules against flopping and it is improving significantly. The WNBA better do the same before they ruin their game.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63947
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Posted: 09/13/17 4:15 pm ::: |
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bballgrl wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
Most of these reviewed calls aren't that hard to get right in real time. These clowns use replay as a crutch because they're cowards.
And what purpose was served in the late game last night? They had a ridiculous number of reviews to see if there was a flagrant but didn't call any flagrants that I recall. So what was the point of holding up the game? Certainly not "player safety".
If they'd T up Parker and Taurasi and some others for their gross over-acting, maybe the ridiculous flops would end and they'd have no reason to stop the game to look for something where nothing actually happened. |
Include Nneka and Alana in that group last night. Alana threw her head back when she wasn't even hit. Several players do that so it looks like they have been hit above the shoulder. Flops do need to get a big fine and a T no matter what team they play on. It really needs to stop! |
Do you think Borders should implement a Flopping Task Force?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9787
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Posted: 09/13/17 5:36 pm ::: |
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Just get rid of foul shots. More time wasted with that and it would get rid of the intentional fouls at the end of games. And the bench is more of a factor.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/13/17 8:12 pm ::: |
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My solution to a lot of problems - players whining too much, too many reviews etc. to get a review for any play a player or coach has to ask ref for a review. If the player is right (say should be a foul on other team) the player gets whatever the proper relief is. If the review is not upheld the player requesting gets a foul. If coach requests the player involved gets a foul if the review is not upheld (for ex coach says EDD was fouled but review not upheld then EDD gets a foul). If player or coach whines at ref then ref says do you want a review then if they don't ask for one but contiue to complain they get a T. players will get tired of fouling out and frivolous requests will end.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9787
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Posted: 09/13/17 10:12 pm ::: |
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Penalizing incorrect challenges sounds good, but there shouldn't be a penalty when the review outcome is "inconclusive, the call stands".
They have reviews now in volleyball and one of the announcers in the Texas/Minnesota game (the one who isn't Nell Fortner) said at one point that "you need your players to be honest with you (the coach) and let you know that they really did not touch the ball so it can be challenged". During the game a Texas player was called for hitting the net and vigorously disagreed with the call. The Texas coach challenged, and in the replay she very clearly hit the net. So either she was acting, or in the heat of the moment even the players don't know what they did, or like fans, they see things through biased eyes.
Last edited by tfan on 09/15/17 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1566 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/14/17 3:57 am ::: |
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Randy wrote: |
My solution to a lot of problems - players whining too much, too many reviews etc. to get a review for any play a player or coach has to ask ref for a review. If the player is right (say should be a foul on other team) the player gets whatever the proper relief is. If the review is not upheld the player requesting gets a foul. If coach requests the player involved gets a foul if the review is not upheld (for ex coach says EDD was fouled but review not upheld then EDD gets a foul). If player or coach whines at ref then ref says do you want a review then if they don't ask for one but contiue to complain they get a T. players will get tired of fouling out and frivolous requests will end. |
The coach should lose a timeout in addition to that.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16467 Location: Holland
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Posted: 09/14/17 4:05 am ::: |
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Giving players technicals for flopping should solve a lot IMO. If the review shows someone flopping then give them a T right away.
But refs have to also understand that you cant review everything you are not sure off. If you missed a foul then let it go and let them play. You dont have to review everytime a player grimaces or looks a bit hurt.
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 1739 Location: Seattle
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 09/15/17 9:51 pm ::: |
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I also like having a person reviewing it other than the officials - either on or off site. Call flopping fouls and have close to zero tolerance for whining and bitching. In my day, only the captain could speak to an official and then only if the official agreed to hear the concern. I think that cut back drastically on the amount of crap.
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if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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