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New York Liberty 2018
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J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 09/10/17 10:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
No thanks on Prince.


What about Stokes and #10 for Hayes?


hangtyme24



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PostPosted: 09/10/17 11:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What about Vaughn to Indiana or SA for their 2nd rounder?



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 4:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
LibFan25 wrote:
You need STARS in this league to go far and win championships, today witness it AGAIN with DIANA TAURASI/BRITTNEY GRINER and ELENA DELLE DONNE/KRISTI TOLIVER. YOU NEED STARS. And we only have ONE star.

That is pretty much the bottom line IMO about New York. They do well at beating some teams they probably shouldn't beat, but still fall short at the business end because they lack that top level firepower. Tina needs help.
You just can't win a title with one star. (The one exception ever was the Fever, but that was when the conference system gave them an artificially easy ride, which doesn't happen anymore, and then they were on the right side of probably the biggest choke job in league history in the finals)
It's going to be tough to trade or draft their way out of this situation too, because they keep winning themselves low draft picks. But one way or another, Tina needs a quality sidekick before it's too late.


I agree, they need 2nd star player. Prince and Rodgers are not good 2nd scoring options for a good team. Stokes lack of scoring will be less of a worry when there are other good scoring options on the team.
For example put Stokes in the starting line-up from the Storm and she really could be that missing piece because she can focus on providing solid defense and all the little things while others provide the scoring. With the Liberty that scoring balance is not there IMO.

Stokes for the Storms first round pick? Or for Langhorne?



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Randy wrote:
No thanks on Prince.


What about Stokes and #10 for Hayes?


Maybe - depends on whether it is believed that Hayes might leave after her contact is up. Can't correct both Tip and Her Majesty.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There aren't enough stars -- especially perimeter-shooting stars -- to go around.

As has been pointed out, post players must have help to take over games, while guards start with the ball in their hands. Tina Charles is good, but it's too easy to make life hard for her without consistent perimeter shooting (something Brittany Boyd, for all her strengths, will not provide).

That hard truth is that's one reason the game is shifting away from post players, and New York's reliance on an inside presence (I think the idea was that Stokes and Vaughn would help the Liberty advance in postseason) catches up to them.

Now, that said, Toliver just went off, and there's not much you can do about that -- except have someone on your team who can go off in a similar manner, which the Liberty don't have (Rodgers is too easy to guard, and Prince isn't a great shooter).

Another point: Very few players develop a perimeter game at the pro level, and all the talk about Weatherspoon's coaching creating shooters is simply misguided. Remember, she couldn't shoot at all, but even if she had been a gunner, trying to rebuild a shot for a year-round player who must score to earn her money overseas is a tough project.

The best #10 pick I can find in recent years is Imani Boyette in 2016, or maybe Kaela Davis last year, so from the outside, it seems to me that the Liberty are stuck in the mediocre zone and relying on a player just on the downside of the aging curve to carry them to glory. They aren't bad enough, or even close, to get a No. 1 pick, and aren't good enough to win it all.

Of course, that describes about six or seven WNBA teams (and about 24 NBA teams). It sucks, but as a long-time Warrior fan who suffered decades of struggle because of that very situation, I know just how hard it is to break out.



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This Very Happy

Thats why I cannot fathom when some think these interior players in college will be the best for the W to pick, especially those who have not shown a real perimeter game.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 4:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't really have a lot more to say than what I've written in the past. There's not much you can do about the vagaries of a one and done format. It does make one feel snookered -- like you bought that electronic gadget that doesn't work or made an online clothing purchase that doesn't look anything like the picture. You feel like you've wasted your time and money, so you're not going to buy that product or shop at that store anymore. Just something for the league to consider. Mad Anyway, a grinding defensive team with little margin for error is going to be more vulnerable to a one and done playoff. Bill actually came up with a good analogy when he compared this game to the Sami Whitcomb/Seattle game where NY also had no answer for a long-range shooter going off. Bill likes to say that the Liberty win when they remember who they are and play that way. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to leave room for a Plan B when things begin to go badly.

As for roster changes, I've been saying since the end of last season that this team needs to be rebalanced. "Making do" with people playing out of position means you're not getting the most out of those players, and it also requires adjustments to cover-up their weaknesses. NY has too many SGs and no legit starting SF or PG. They became very reliant on Zellous being sort of a PG surrogate, and whenever she's off the court their offense can become very discombobulated. You saw it yesterday. As soon as Rebecca Allen came in, things started falling apart. Not that it was Bec's fault -- although I'm sure some people will blame her. What happened is that without Z on the court, Hartley and Tina started forcing things and that led to a bucket of turnovers. Not only did this allow DC to score quick, easy baskets, but that also got Toliver started on her hot streak.

Rebalancing the roster is also necessary for the defense. Playing a defensive style that depends on active rotation and rebounding works better with a big team. This season, they played Big Ball with little people and somehow got away with it most of the time. Sooner or later it was going to catch-up with them, and against a big Mystics team it finally did. Along with a real PG and SF, a two-way center would be helpful. Vaughn and Stokes don't really have much in the way of low post moves, and anytime they face a bigger opponent they're easily stymied. On the defensive end, Vaughn doesn't block shots.

I'm not going to recommend specific moves at this point. There are too many variables and unknowns still to be determined. However, I suggest that people look at the whole roster -- how players are likely to be used or how they're likely to interact with each other. Simply saying this player sucks or I love that player isn't enough. Remember, a lot of the players who are now hated were very much liked at the end of last season. I assure you, it wasn't just the players who changed. It was also the systems, the roles they were asked to fill, and the other players in their rotation. For both the team and individuals to play well, the parts have to fit.



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UK1996



Joined: 03 Sep 2015
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PostPosted: 09/11/17 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty should try for another draft pick and try to get Nurse & Nared. Nurse would give them some shooting, Nared will take a little more time to develop. If they were a Lottery team KLS would be a good fit in 2018.



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Aladyyn



Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


Seems that she is less appreciated by NY fans that others. In the expansion draft thread it was suggested she not be protected. I like her as well.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/11/17 6:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


The Liberty's fortunes improved significantly in midseason when Hartley was installed as the starting "lead guard." But, in my view, Hartley really isn't a point guard. Her strengths aren't the strengths I'd want at that position. I don't see her as the starting point guard on a team that is a serious championship contender.

For 2018, I'd be happy to see Hartley as our #2 SG. I would not be happy to see her as our #1 PG.



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Edit: Hmm, Swords is a free agent per the Seattle Times exit article.




Last edited by Nerd2 on 09/11/17 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
mercfan3



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hartley isn't a traditional Point Guard. But I do think starting Z and Hartley as 2 combo guards would be good for the team. They played well together, and they won a lot of games in a row.

Yes..the early exit hurt. But I think the dependence on Prince/Sugar hurts far more than not having a traditional point guard.

New York needs to use those two to get a reliable scoring SF, and a defensive minded center and/or stretch center.



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LibFan25



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Do people not like Hartley as the starting PG? From what I've seen of the Liberty I really liked what she did for the team. But I might just be biased because I liked her a lot in DC.


Quote:
Seems that she is less appreciated by NY fans that others. In the expansion draft thread it was suggested she not be protected. I like her as well.


not me...you see my Avatar? lol that's how much i apprecate her all season when Boyd went down. Bob is right, she is not a PG, she made her mistakes at the position but overall she did one hell of a job and she should be rewarded of resigning with the New York Liberty.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 8:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I like Hartley and want to keep Hartley but also agree that she isn't a true PG. When we moved Hartley to the starting PG spot things were better, but I think she was sharing the PG duties with Zellous. Zellous seemed more often to run the offense in the half-court sets.

If we got a big PG with range or a two way SF I could see starting Hartley, Zellous and That 3rd player and having it be very effective. But if we got a player that fit that description I could also see starting Boyd or one of Price Rodgers and having Hartley as the first guard off the bench.

Hartley has a place on the Liberty next season IMO, and by the end of the season I saw her as a bright spot on the team, not a question mark, or liability.


zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. 3-way trade:

Seattle gets:Stokes,Zellous, & #10 pk(NY)
Phoenix gets:Langhorne,KML,R.Allen
NY gets:Bonner,Robinson,& #5 pk(Sea.)

2.Offer K.Bone a contract.Phoenix agrees not to match as part of the 3-way trade.

After making the two moves above.NY would have lots of options:

Charles
Bone
Bonner
Robinson
Prince
Rodgers
Hartley
Allen
Vaughn
Rain cock
Zahui b
#5 pick

Liberty make 1 or 2 more moves based on team need/who's available at #5

Possible acquisitions:
Hayes
Alexander
Boyatte
Hooper
Young
Holmes
McBride
S.Johnson


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hartley struggled early in the season. Understandable given that she was returning from her pregnancy, had come to a new team, and was often playing a position that isn't ideal for her. She was a real plus in the second half of the season.

In yesterday's game, Hartley had 15 points, second only to Charles. She shot 6-10 from the floor, including some key baskets when things weren't going well for New York but the game wasn't yet lost. Hartley had a team high five assists but also a team high five turnovers.

Over these three seasons, we've seen a lot of disappointing performances from Liberty players in playoff games. This was Hartley's first playoff game for New York. Despite the turnovers, I'd say it was a good game for her.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was rough on Bria in the first part of the season, and I'm still not thrilled with her, but she seems to have found a niche. But her being far better as a starter than as a reserve just fucks up the rotation further. I don't think we can bench both Piph and Sugar, I don't think Bria and Brittany Boyd are a balanced combo in the backcourt, and I don't think we can go three-guard set with the guards we have (and if we did, where does that leave Z?).



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If we trade Sugar, Hartley would then become the default back-up SG.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 9:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Edit: Hmm, Swords is a free agent per the Seattle Times exit article.


Come back to New York, Carolyn!!!!



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

At the very least they'll sign-and-trade Hartley for something in return, even if they don't decide to keepp her. Bill's always been an asset manager who very rarely loses something for nothing.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
I was rough on Bria in the first part of the season, and I'm still not thrilled with her, but she seems to have found a niche. But her being far better as a starter than as a reserve just fucks up the rotation further. I don't think we can bench both Piph and Sugar, I don't think Bria and Brittany Boyd are a balanced combo in the backcourt, and I don't think we can go three-guard set with the guards we have (and if we did, where does that leave Z?).


The fact that this season she was far better as a starter than as a reserve doesn't mean that would be true next season. She struggled in the first half of the season for all sorts of obvious reasons that I believe would have been true even if she'd been starting. By the second half of the season, she was far more comfortable. I think she'd have done just fine off the bench in the second half of the year.

I don't believe the issue with Hartley is whether she starts or comes off the bench. I believe it's whether she plays PG or SG. If possible, I'd trade Prince or Rodgers and make Hartley the #2 SG. Indeed, I'd prefer to trade both Prince and Rodgers and get a better starting SG, but I highly doubt that that's possible.

I like Hartley and would be happy to see her back next season. But I don't see her as good enough to start at either position.



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gownbago



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
At the very least they'll sign-and-trade Hartley for something in return, even if they don't decide to keepp her. Bill's always been an asset manager who very rarely loses something for nothing.


He traded Dominique Canty for Allison Curtin.


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Bill's always been an asset manager who very rarely loses something for nothing.


Yeah, like that trade for Tweety Nolan, for instance. He was able to unload that useless McCarville, who went on to help the Lynx as a starter to their arguably strongest Championship run.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 11:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think most NY fans are very appreciative of what Hartley did for us this season. She got off to such a rough start that she couldn't even bring the ball up court without getting her pocket picked. However, Bria pulled things together and became an important contributor. The team was clearly better with her as the starting PG than with Prince. That said, Bria got a lot of help from Zellous and Prince when it came to creating plays off the dribble. As a test, the question you have to ask yourself is where would Hartley rank among starting PGs in the WNBA? Probably near or at the bottom. It's sort of like when Cruz was here. She was far better than anyone else the Liberty had, and Anna prevented the position from feeling like a gaping hole. Cruz did a lot of good things, but if you compared her to the other starting PGs in the league you'd see that she was below average.

The Liberty only have one star, so they need their starters to be really solid or someone young with star potential. Not many people view Hartley that way. She's certainly young enough so that she may still develop, and it wouldn't surprise me if Bria is given a chance to win the starting PG job next season because upgrading SF and C are more pressing needs. Nonetheless, I do believe management is open to improving the PG situation if a reasonable opportunity comes along.



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