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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/09/17 8:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I feel like Seattle is one capable starter away from being a winning team. Swords was supposed to be that player, but wasn't. But I think there's a tipping point for teams like the Storm, once they can get enough consistent help from their non-stars, then the stars can actually go to work properly without quite so much attention and reliance on them.


The question is do they get there before Bird ages out. I also think the Storm fans, owners and management have higher expectations than just being a "winning team."


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 09/09/17 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
I feel like Seattle is one capable starter away from being a winning team. Swords was supposed to be that player, but wasn't. But I think there's a tipping point for teams like the Storm, once they can get enough consistent help from their non-stars, then the stars can actually go to work properly without quite so much attention and reliance on them.


The question is do they get there before Bird ages out. I also think the Storm fans, owners and management have higher expectations than just being a "winning team."

Agreed.
Bird playing on stops them from going backwards, but that's a big hole to fill very soon.
Re: the second point, I don't think there's a whole lot of difference right now between being a winning team and being a genuine chance to reach the finals.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/09/17 8:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Interesting point. I'm not sure that making the finals is the same thing as being a contender for the title, but this year I would say you are right - the Mercury or Mystics could make the finals as "barely being" winning teams.


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/09/17 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Langhorne contract history
Rookie contract 2008-2011
Signed 4 yr deal early 2012
Traded to SEA during 2014 draft
4 yr contract expired end of 2015
2016 Cored
2017 Cored



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/09/17 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It would appear there are 2 cores left.


Nerd2



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 7:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:

Taurasi said it best in an interview before their playoff game. Stewart is scary. She averages 20 pts per game already with just floating around. Wait till she really figures it out and takes over.


I don't think it's about Stewart "figuring it out". I think Taurasi may have been taking a shot at the Seattle style of play or coaching staff.


Not everyone throws shade at everything. I feel pretty much the same way. Most post players take 3 years to really have the game slow down. Year 1 and 2, LJ was very good. Year 3 she was MVP.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 8:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Pretty clear that they've informed Langhorne that they do not intend to core her this year. There's a second reason why you wouldn't core someone and that is to keep the core tag available for another player that you intend to trade for.

So according to Percy Allen FAs are her, Quinn, Whitcomb, and Swords. Whitcomb seemed to really lose her confidence after that first shooting game. I'd love to see her back for another year. I like Langhorne but only if she comes off the bench. Storm absolutely need a more physical center to let Stewart play a stretch 4. Swords and Quinn need to go elsewhere and be replaced with more athletic players to be developed. Alysha Clark can't just be a defensive specialist as a starter next year. KML needs to make fitness a priority but honestly I think there's better players available if the Storm do a proper job scouting. I can't say much on Peterson and Montgomery. Basically, I want to see them taller and faster at the 3 and 5.

My gut says that Kloppy has a leg up on the competition and that unless they find a too-good-to-pass-up candidate they will be satisfied with him. I am still not sure how much of the team makeup was due to Alisha Valavanis but if she was responsible for bringing in Swords then perhaps she is not the best choice for GM going forward.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 8:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seattle should see who is available on the free agent market. Use playing with Stewart, Loyd and Bird for a great fan base as the selling point. And draft wisely. If they have question marks about the top of the draft moving down and getting another asset is an interesting idea (And I'm not just saying that because I like Stokes and #10 to Seattle for #5 for NY, but it could be good for both teams, Kizer and #9 would be another move I would consider if the Sun offered it for #5).

I like Langhorn but I don't think her value is super high on the trade market. I could see LA or Minn giving up pick 11 or 12 if they want to replace one of their current bench posts with a decent versatile can compliment star talent on a chamionship run kind of player. I think Lang can give as much or more as say Pierson, Gruda or Jackson-Jones did. On the flip side if Seattle can get a decent center Langhorn off the bench would be very nice piece for The Storm to have.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 8:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Seattle should see who is available on the free agent market. Use playing with Stewart, Loyd and Bird for a great fan base as the selling point. And draft wisely. If they have question marks about the top of the draft moving down and getting another asset is an interesting idea (And I'm not just saying that because I like Stokes and #10 to Seattle for #5 for NY, but it could be good for both teams, Kizer and #9 would be another move I would consider if the Sun offered it for #5).

I like Langhorn but I don't think her value is super high on the trade market. I could see LA or Minn giving up pick 11 or 12 if they want to replace one of their current bench posts with a decent versatile can compliment star talent on a chamionship run kind of player. I think Lang can give as much or more as say Pierson, Gruda or Jackson-Jones did. On the flip side if Seattle can get a decent center Langhorn off the bench would be very nice piece for The Storm to have.


Kizer and her back injury is a no-go for me. I'd like to know more about what happened with Stokes, too. Stewart might have played with her at UConn but she didn't crack the starting lineup for a reason.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
Seattle should see who is available on the free agent market. Use playing with Stewart, Loyd and Bird for a great fan base as the selling point. And draft wisely. If they have question marks about the top of the draft moving down and getting another asset is an interesting idea (And I'm not just saying that because I like Stokes and #10 to Seattle for #5 for NY, but it could be good for both teams, Kizer and #9 would be another move I would consider if the Sun offered it for #5).

I like Langhorn but I don't think her value is super high on the trade market. I could see LA or Minn giving up pick 11 or 12 if they want to replace one of their current bench posts with a decent versatile can compliment star talent on a chamionship run kind of player. I think Lang can give as much or more as say Pierson, Gruda or Jackson-Jones did. On the flip side if Seattle can get a decent center Langhorn off the bench would be very nice piece for The Storm to have.


Kizer and her back injury is a no-go for me. I'd like to know more about what happened with Stokes, too. Stewart might have played with her at UConn but she didn't crack the starting lineup for a reason.


Stokes is a good defender but doesn't score. So I think BL preferred to play Vaughn to make teams pay for double teaming Charles in the post. When Stokes got more minutes she seemed to play better.

If NY had more scoring at the SF or guard spot as we anticipated with Prince and Rodgers I would be all for keeping Stokes as I think she can actually stop or at least slow down some of the best offensive posts in the league.

I think with the scoring options in Seattle she could be a good defensive option alongside Stewart/Loyd and two headed post combo with Langhorne.


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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Pretty clear that they've informed Langhorne that they do not intend to core her this year. There's a second reason why you wouldn't core someone and that is to keep the core tag available for another player that you intend to trade for.

So according to Percy Allen FAs are her, Quinn, Whitcomb, and Swords. Whitcomb seemed to really lose her confidence after that first shooting game. I'd love to see her back for another year. I like Langhorne but only if she comes off the bench. Storm absolutely need a more physical center to let Stewart play a stretch 4. Swords and Quinn need to go elsewhere and be replaced with more athletic players to be developed. Alysha Clark can't just be a defensive specialist as a starter next year. KML needs to make fitness a priority but honestly I think there's better players available if the Storm do a proper job scouting. I can't say much on Peterson and Montgomery. Basically, I want to see them taller and faster at the 3 and 5.

My gut says that Kloppy has a leg up on the competition and that unless they find a too-good-to-pass-up candidate they will be satisfied with him. I am still not sure how much of the team makeup was due to Alisha Valavanis but if she was responsible for bringing in Swords then perhaps she is not the best choice for GM going forward.

You don't need the core tag for someone from another team. They're either an unrestricted free agent you're signing on the open market, or if they've been cored by that other team then they sign the contract as part of the deal (and the tag disappears as soon as they change teams). I wouldn't be surprised if they threw it on Langhorne again.

And Whitcomb can't be a free agent, unless the Storm decide to make her one by not making the reserved qualifying offer (which would be bizarre). I'd expect her to be back, unless she gets that Aussie passport and decides she needs to stay in Australia to try to make the Worlds team (but I think Mitchell's too valuable to the Opals as the naturalised player anyway, so she probably wouldn't bother).



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm sure some people consider reserved players as a form of free agent, since they list them all together.



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 09/11/17 10:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Pretty clear that they've informed Langhorne that they do not intend to core her this year. There's a second reason why you wouldn't core someone and that is to keep the core tag available for another player that you intend to trade for.

So according to Percy Allen FAs are her, Quinn, Whitcomb, and Swords. Whitcomb seemed to really lose her confidence after that first shooting game. I'd love to see her back for another year. I like Langhorne but only if she comes off the bench. Storm absolutely need a more physical center to let Stewart play a stretch 4. Swords and Quinn need to go elsewhere and be replaced with more athletic players to be developed. Alysha Clark can't just be a defensive specialist as a starter next year. KML needs to make fitness a priority but honestly I think there's better players available if the Storm do a proper job scouting. I can't say much on Peterson and Montgomery. Basically, I want to see them taller and faster at the 3 and 5.

My gut says that Kloppy has a leg up on the competition and that unless they find a too-good-to-pass-up candidate they will be satisfied with him. I am still not sure how much of the team makeup was due to Alisha Valavanis but if she was responsible for bringing in Swords then perhaps she is not the best choice for GM going forward.

You don't need the core tag for someone from another team. They're either an unrestricted free agent you're signing on the open market, or if they've been cored by that other team then they sign the contract as part of the deal (and the tag disappears as soon as they change teams). I wouldn't be surprised if they threw it on Langhorne again.

And Whitcomb can't be a free agent, unless the Storm decide to make her one by not making the reserved qualifying offer (which would be bizarre). I'd expect her to be back, unless she gets that Aussie passport and decides she needs to stay in Australia to try to make the Worlds team (but I think Mitchell's too valuable to the Opals as the naturalised player anyway, so she probably wouldn't bother).


Hmm, CBA doesn't specifically mention what happens to the core tag so I defer to your knowledge. I was referring to Langhorne's quote in the Times article that she was a free agent for the first time in her career.

I recognize Whitcomb would be a reserved player and my statement was more about the Storm choosing to bring her back.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 09/12/17 2:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Pretty clear that they've informed Langhorne that they do not intend to core her this year. There's a second reason why you wouldn't core someone and that is to keep the core tag available for another player that you intend to trade for.

So according to Percy Allen FAs are her, Quinn, Whitcomb, and Swords. Whitcomb seemed to really lose her confidence after that first shooting game. I'd love to see her back for another year. I like Langhorne but only if she comes off the bench. Storm absolutely need a more physical center to let Stewart play a stretch 4. Swords and Quinn need to go elsewhere and be replaced with more athletic players to be developed. Alysha Clark can't just be a defensive specialist as a starter next year. KML needs to make fitness a priority but honestly I think there's better players available if the Storm do a proper job scouting. I can't say much on Peterson and Montgomery. Basically, I want to see them taller and faster at the 3 and 5.

My gut says that Kloppy has a leg up on the competition and that unless they find a too-good-to-pass-up candidate they will be satisfied with him. I am still not sure how much of the team makeup was due to Alisha Valavanis but if she was responsible for bringing in Swords then perhaps she is not the best choice for GM going forward.

You don't need the core tag for someone from another team. They're either an unrestricted free agent you're signing on the open market, or if they've been cored by that other team then they sign the contract as part of the deal (and the tag disappears as soon as they change teams). I wouldn't be surprised if they threw it on Langhorne again.

And Whitcomb can't be a free agent, unless the Storm decide to make her one by not making the reserved qualifying offer (which would be bizarre). I'd expect her to be back, unless she gets that Aussie passport and decides she needs to stay in Australia to try to make the Worlds team (but I think Mitchell's too valuable to the Opals as the naturalised player anyway, so she probably wouldn't bother).


Hmm, CBA doesn't specifically mention what happens to the core tag so I defer to your knowledge. I was referring to Langhorne's quote in the Times article that she was a free agent for the first time in her career.

I recognize Whitcomb would be a reserved player and my statement was more about the Storm choosing to bring her back.


Do you think the Storm are going to core Swords and then trade her so get atleast some value for her if she is indeed a FA



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Nerd2



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PostPosted: 09/12/17 3:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
Pretty clear that they've informed Langhorne that they do not intend to core her this year. There's a second reason why you wouldn't core someone and that is to keep the core tag available for another player that you intend to trade for.

So according to Percy Allen FAs are her, Quinn, Whitcomb, and Swords. Whitcomb seemed to really lose her confidence after that first shooting game. I'd love to see her back for another year. I like Langhorne but only if she comes off the bench. Storm absolutely need a more physical center to let Stewart play a stretch 4. Swords and Quinn need to go elsewhere and be replaced with more athletic players to be developed. Alysha Clark can't just be a defensive specialist as a starter next year. KML needs to make fitness a priority but honestly I think there's better players available if the Storm do a proper job scouting. I can't say much on Peterson and Montgomery. Basically, I want to see them taller and faster at the 3 and 5.

My gut says that Kloppy has a leg up on the competition and that unless they find a too-good-to-pass-up candidate they will be satisfied with him. I am still not sure how much of the team makeup was due to Alisha Valavanis but if she was responsible for bringing in Swords then perhaps she is not the best choice for GM going forward.

You don't need the core tag for someone from another team. They're either an unrestricted free agent you're signing on the open market, or if they've been cored by that other team then they sign the contract as part of the deal (and the tag disappears as soon as they change teams). I wouldn't be surprised if they threw it on Langhorne again.

And Whitcomb can't be a free agent, unless the Storm decide to make her one by not making the reserved qualifying offer (which would be bizarre). I'd expect her to be back, unless she gets that Aussie passport and decides she needs to stay in Australia to try to make the Worlds team (but I think Mitchell's too valuable to the Opals as the naturalised player anyway, so she probably wouldn't bother).


Hmm, CBA doesn't specifically mention what happens to the core tag so I defer to your knowledge. I was referring to Langhorne's quote in the Times article that she was a free agent for the first time in her career.

I recognize Whitcomb would be a reserved player and my statement was more about the Storm choosing to bring her back.


Do you think the Storm are going to core Swords and then trade her so get atleast some value for her if she is indeed a FA


I sure hope not. That would attach a max contract to her which is a huge over-pay.


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PostPosted: 09/12/17 5:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think they let Swords go and pick-up a different post. Swords clearly wasn't working in Seattle and would be better off heading somewhere else.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/12/17 7:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:

Do you think the Storm are going to core Swords and then trade her so get atleast some value for her if she is indeed a FA


That would be a move similar to a one Miller pulled off with Little. I thought he'd be stuck giving Little a max+ contract, and BAMM, he found a sucker in Jim Pitman. He risked losing JThomas by not not coring her. So was Miller good, or was he lucky?

This would be a similar situation in Seattle, with Langhorne being the much more desired player being left uncored in order to attempt to core and trade Swords. How come I get the feeling that Seattle wouldn't be so lucky? If they are stupid enough to leave Langhorne available, any number of teams should be on the phone with her come January, including Minnesota. I realize in order for Minnesota to make it happen, they'd probably have to go 11 again, losing Zandi (hasn't shown much yet and probably won't) and losing Perkins to a cheaper salary (Kia Nurse?), but it might be worth it for them.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/12/17 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:

Do you think the Storm are going to core Swords and then trade her so get atleast some value for her if she is indeed a FA


That would be a move similar to a one Miller pulled off with Little. I thought he'd be stuck giving Little a max+ contract, and BAMM, he found a sucker in Jim Pitman. He risked losing JThomas by not not coring her. So was Miller good, or was he lucky?

This would be a similar situation in Seattle, with Langhorne being the much more desired player being left uncored in order to attempt to core and trade Swords. How come I get the feeling that Seattle wouldn't be so lucky? If they are stupid enough to leave Langhorne available, any number of teams should be on the phone with her come January, including Minnesota. I realize in order for Minnesota to make it happen, they'd probably have to go 11 again, losing Zandi (hasn't shown much yet and probably won't) and losing Perkins to a cheaper salary (Kia Nurse?), but it might be worth it for them.


To core Swords, you would have to give her a max contract. I know WNBA contracts are screwy, but surely no GM is making a trade for a maxed out Carolyn Swords.


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PostPosted: 09/12/17 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:

Do you think the Storm are going to core Swords and then trade her so get atleast some value for her if she is indeed a FA


That would be a move similar to a one Miller pulled off with Little. I thought he'd be stuck giving Little a max+ contract, and BAMM, he found a sucker in Jim Pitman. He risked losing JThomas by not not coring her. So was Miller good, or was he lucky?

This would be a similar situation in Seattle, with Langhorne being the much more desired player being left uncored in order to attempt to core and trade Swords. How come I get the feeling that Seattle wouldn't be so lucky? If they are stupid enough to leave Langhorne available, any number of teams should be on the phone with her come January, including Minnesota. I realize in order for Minnesota to make it happen, they'd probably have to go 11 again, losing Zandi (hasn't shown much yet and probably won't) and losing Perkins to a cheaper salary (Kia Nurse?), but it might be worth it for them.


He didn't risk losing Thomas as he knew she would re-sign and stay with the team. Coring Little suggested they already knew there was interest in her and it certainly worked in their favor. I don't know why Seattle is choosing not to core Langhorne this year but they need to move away from her so having her potentially tied to the team is probably not worth it.


Wiseone1



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PostPosted: 09/12/17 2:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
Seattle should see who is available on the free agent market. Use playing with Stewart, Loyd and Bird for a great fan base as the selling point. And draft wisely. If they have question marks about the top of the draft moving down and getting another asset is an interesting idea (And I'm not just saying that because I like Stokes and #10 to Seattle for #5 for NY, but it could be good for both teams, Kizer and #9 would be another move I would consider if the Sun offered it for #5).

I like Langhorn but I don't think her value is super high on the trade market. I could see LA or Minn giving up pick 11 or 12 if they want to replace one of their current bench posts with a decent versatile can compliment star talent on a chamionship run kind of player. I think Lang can give as much or more as say Pierson, Gruda or Jackson-Jones did. On the flip side if Seattle can get a decent center Langhorn off the bench would be very nice piece for The Storm to have.


Kizer and her back injury is a no-go for me. I'd like to know more about what happened with Stokes, too. Stewart might have played with her at UConn but she didn't crack the starting lineup for a reason.


Kizer will be a FA. She can sign anywhere. Don't think Seattle is on her radar. She has signed to play in China so pretty sure her back will be fine.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 09/12/17 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Michelle89 wrote:

Do you think the Storm are going to core Swords and then trade her so get atleast some value for her if she is indeed a FA


That would be a move similar to a one Miller pulled off with Little. I thought he'd be stuck giving Little a max+ contract, and BAMM, he found a sucker in Jim Pitman. He risked losing JThomas by not not coring her. So was Miller good, or was he lucky?

This would be a similar situation in Seattle, with Langhorne being the much more desired player being left uncored in order to attempt to core and trade Swords. How come I get the feeling that Seattle wouldn't be so lucky? If they are stupid enough to leave Langhorne available, any number of teams should be on the phone with her come January, including Minnesota. I realize in order for Minnesota to make it happen, they'd probably have to go 11 again, losing Zandi (hasn't shown much yet and probably won't) and losing Perkins to a cheaper salary (Kia Nurse?), but it might be worth it for them.


He didn't risk losing Thomas as he knew she would re-sign and stay with the team. Coring Little suggested they already knew there was interest in her and it certainly worked in their favor. I don't know why Seattle is choosing not to core Langhorne this year but they need to move away from her so having her potentially tied to the team is probably not worth it.


I dont see why we should move away from her for nothing though. Core her and let her come off the bench to provide much needed bench scoring or core her and trade her for atleast something. I think she still has some trade value. Offensively she is one of the most effective players in the league. She is shooting 64% from the field Shocked



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snlMINAJ



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PostPosted: 09/13/17 5:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i would love to see stokes in SEA. if they can get stokes i think its a BIG help in the grand scheme of things.


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PostPosted: 10/24/17 11:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why coach Dan Hughes might be exactly what the Seattle Storm need

http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/21129828/why-coach-dan-hughes-exactly-seattle-storm-need

Quote:
"It wasn't like I was looking for an opportunity," said Hughes, who was named the Seattle Storm's new coach earlier this month. "But I thought if somebody called and it sounded good, I'd do it."


Quote:
Hughes has coached more WNBA games than anyone -- 524, with a 237-287 overall record -- in stints with Charlotte, Cleveland and San Antonio. But he hasn't won a championship. The closest he came was in 2008, when the Stars fell to Detroit 3-0 in the WNBA Finals.


Quote:
Hughes and Valavanis said they have that optimism in part because both are on the same page about their evaluation of what Seattle possesses and what it needs.

"I really do believe we have the critical pieces, and we're looking to shore up the rest of the roster," said Valavanis, who will have the No. 5 draft pick in 2018. "And Dan's perspective is in alignment with that; he made it clear he believes we have the core pieces to have a winning team."


Quote:
"I wondered how I would be about watching WNBA games," Hughes said. "I became a major fan. And I really enjoyed that. I bought the league pass, and I was watching games every night."


I guess he's up to our level now.... the basement level.

Quote:
"He's got the knowledge. He's got the experience," Bird said of Hughes. "Paired up with where our team is right now, with our youth and the season we're coming off of, I think it's a really good fit."


Bird really drinking the Hughes kool-aid.

Quote:
Hughes will be the fifth head coach for Bird at Seattle, following Anne Donovan, Brian Agler, Boucek and Kloppenburg.


I thought Lin Dunn coached her too.

Quote:
"For the most part, you just have to buy in and trust," Bird said of adjusting to a new coach. "Some of that is earned. But in order to make that work as quickly as possible, you kind of have to blindly trust. Because Dan has proven himself, the blind trust isn't that hard to give."


Bird taking a bath in the Hughes kool-aid. Is he still tied into Team USA basketball?

Quote:
"They're still learning how magical it can be as they learn to do things together," Hughes said. "That's where I step in."


Quote:
Valavanis sounds hopeful of bringing back free-agent forward Crystal Langhorne. Forward Alysha Clark was the team's other starter. But there was little production from the bench. And defensively, the Storm lag considerably behind the league's top franchises, Minnesota and Los Angeles, which have met in the WNBA Finals the past two years.


Quote:
"I'm not coming in with a long-term plan; I'm looking at the present. How can we take this team and get them to that level?"


Quote:
"I know what I've done in the past. But I want to be a 2018 coach with the team I've got."



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PostPosted: 10/24/17 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades is right: Dunn coached Bird her rookie season. The many Bird quotes I feel are to calm down all the people who questioned the hiring. One of the whispers is that if Bird is unhappy then she might retire and the quotes are probably a good way to quash that talk.

I know everyone's thinking Seattle will go for Plum but I am fearful that they will choose to go for Danielle Robinson instead. They simply need to ensure Bird plays less next season and that almost demands an experienced PG. The article also says they hope to sign Crystal Langhorne again.


merlina



Joined: 07 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: 10/24/17 7:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
"

Bird really drinking the Hughes kool-aid.



Do you seriously think she would ever say anything negative about the new coach, no matter who it was?


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