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Who should win MVP? |
Tina Charles |
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15% |
[ 8 ] |
Elena Delle Donne |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
Sylvia Fowles |
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49% |
[ 26 ] |
Brittney Griner |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
Maya Moore |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
Candace Parker |
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20% |
[ 11 ] |
Nneka Ogwumike |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
Breanna Stewart |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
someone else |
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7% |
[ 4 ] |
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Total Votes : 53 |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 8:27 am ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players. |
And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard.
See how silly these "valuable" arguments are? There is a reason MVP has just come to mean Most Outstanding in the eyes of most fans/players/voters. "Value" debates are for talk radio, message board homers, and idiotic TV shows that "embrace the debate" by yelling hot takes at one another...
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/17 8:31 am ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players. |
And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard. |
No they don't. Essence Carson is a starter for them ffs...
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 8:37 am ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players. |
And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard. |
No they don't. Essence Carson is a starter for them ffs... |
So? They also have Grey, Sims, Williams (who is streaky but can take over offensively), Lavender, and Nneka. That is more offensive firepower than most teams have.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/17 8:43 am ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players. |
And if you replace Alana Beard with an average defender the Sparks also tumble in the standings. Probably even more than without Parker since the Sparks have the offensive firepower to overcome a missing Parker but defensively they would implode without Beard. |
No they don't. Essence Carson is a starter for them ffs... |
So? They also have Grey, Sims, Williams (who is streaky but can take over offensively), Lavender, and Nneka. That is more offensive firepower than most teams have. |
And they would all be lost without Parker. Riquina Williams and Odyssey Sims chucking shots is not a recipe for good offense.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/17 8:45 am ::: |
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Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks.
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cappa23MVP
Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Posts: 411
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Posted: 09/06/17 8:57 am ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks. |
This, yes, all of this.
_________________ TINA CHARLES IS A MOTHERFUKIN BOSS.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 9:12 am ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks. |
The only "reasonable" arguement to be made comes down to the whole "value" debate. And that was my point all along. The moment we start debating relative value to their teams, a "reasonable" case for just about anyone's favorite star player can be made. That is why it is a poor and ridiculously subjective standard to use.
Who was the best player in the league over the last year? It is Fowles and no one else is close. That is where no reasonable counter-argument can be made.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/17 9:35 am ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks. |
The only "reasonable" arguement to be made comes down to the whole "value" debate. And that was my point all along. The moment we start debating relative value to their teams, a "reasonable" case for just about anyone's favorite star player can be made. That is why it is a poor and ridiculously subjective standard to use.
Who was the best player in the league over the last year? It is Fowles and no one else is close. That is where no reasonable counter-argument can be made. |
Brittney Griner
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 9:59 am ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
Fowles is going to win MVP. We all know it. But let's not act like there isn't a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Parker and Charles. Syl is not some runaway winner, not after the last few weeks. |
The only "reasonable" arguement to be made comes down to the whole "value" debate. And that was my point all along. The moment we start debating relative value to their teams, a "reasonable" case for just about anyone's favorite star player can be made. That is why it is a poor and ridiculously subjective standard to use.
Who was the best player in the league over the last year? It is Fowles and no one else is close. That is where no reasonable counter-argument can be made. |
Brittney Griner |
No, she wasn't. She missed a huge portion of the season and the number #1 thing is being able to take the floor.
Griner's stats: 8th in points scored, 17th (!!) in total rebounds, 3rd in total blocks, and a fg% 8% lower than Fowles (57% v. 65%).
Griner was also 8th in Win Shares, versus Fowles at #1
Not to mention being thoroughly dominated by Fowles in every single head-to-head matchup between the two, despite Fowles being doubled-teamed and the Lynx allowing Fowles to guard Griner alone.
There is no reasonable argument to be made that Griner had a better season than Fowles. Had she played the entire season it could have been a great battle, but because of her injury it wasn't even close.
ETA: Notice how we are able to use actual empirical evidence in this debate, vesus running unprovable hypotheticals in our own minds to conclude who has the most "value" to their team? This demonstrates perfectly the whole problem with that standard and why it is so meaningless.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63812
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Posted: 09/06/17 10:33 am ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. |
I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players. |
With this you need that crystal ball action. Only 7 actual good players? That's all Agler typically uses in a tight game. Don't forget that the only injuries the Sparks have had are to players you probably don't consider good. He kind of did a Curt Miller stumble into a better player when Essence Carson went down.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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cappa23MVP
Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Posts: 411
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Posted: 09/06/17 10:39 am ::: |
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Justintyme, Pontificate, Pontificate... "Watch them Dogs" I certainly would like to know "who in the hell left the gate open" and let you creep in as the authority on what arguments are devoid of all meaning.. Don't make me, "call a thing, a thing"
By any name or means you deem necessary... Most Valuable Player, League Best Player...call the award whatever you want...However, If you don't call it, the best player of the first half of the season award, it really isn't Sylvia Fowles.
Another thing, don't imply my favorite player is Tina Charles, because she isn't. My favorite player is the Queen of Feast or Famine, Sugar Rodgers.
_________________ TINA CHARLES IS A MOTHERFUKIN BOSS.
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/17 10:44 am ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. |
I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015.
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Parker with a league average starting center, Sparks fans are longingly watching A'ja Wilson highlights right now. Sparks only won 1 less game than the Lynx with a worse team and only like 7 actual good players. |
With this you need that crystal ball action. Only 7 actual good players? That's all Agler typically uses in a tight game. Don't forget that the only injuries the Sparks have had are to players you probably don't consider good. He kind of did a Curt Miller stumble into a better player when Essence Carson went down. |
I don't need a crystal ball to see how much Sparks struggle when Parker is either playing badly, or resting on the bench.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 09/06/17 10:47 am ::: |
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Does she play badly a lot? Does she need a lot of rest?
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jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 7925
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Posted: 09/06/17 10:51 am ::: |
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cappa23MVP wrote: |
Justintyme, Pontificate, Pontificate... "Watch them Dogs" I certainly would like to know "who in the hell left the gate open" and let you creep in as the authority on what arguments are devoid of all meaning.. Don't make me, "call a thing, a thing"
By any name or means you deem necessary... Most Valuable Player, League Best Player...call the award whatever you want...However, If you don't call it, the best player of the first half of the season award, it really isn't Sylvia Fowles.
Another thing, don't imply my favorite player is Tina Charles, because she isn't. My favorite player is the Queen of Feast or Famine, Sugar Rodgers. |
The sugar drips
From her sweet lips;
The sugar is mine!
You bet your life
A sweet girl like this
Can be hard to find!
She picks you up!
She makes you feel nice!
She makes you think twice
About paradise
And everything nice
Like sugar and spice;
She's sugar to me!!!
_________________ Regards,
J A P
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24373 Location: London
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Posted: 09/06/17 10:58 am ::: |
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Beard, Gray and Ogwumike all with a better net plus/minus than Parker this season, by the way. |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 11:05 am ::: |
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cappa23MVP wrote: |
Justintyme, Pontificate, Pontificate... "Watch them Dogs" I certainly would like to know "who in the hell left the gate open" and let you creep in as the authority on what arguments are devoid of all meaning.. Don't make me, "call a thing, a thing"
By any name or means you deem necessary... Most Valuable Player, League Best Player...call the award whatever you want...However, If you don't call it, the best player of the first half of the season award, it really isn't Sylvia Fowles.
Another thing, don't imply my favorite player is Tina Charles, because she isn't. My favorite player is the Queen of Feast or Famine, Sugar Rodgers. |
The stats tell the whole story. And yes, the stats from the full season. Show me with empirical evidence the case for any other player having had a better full year than Fowles.
As for an authority on the meaning of arguments, don't look to me as I am not the one who determined these things. Subjective arguments are inferior to objective ones. That is a simple reality that has been around since at least Aristotle (and really, long before).
As for who your favorite player is, that is irrelevant. The whole point is that a case can be made for whomever you like when we start discussing a player's hypothetical "value" to their team in relation to one another. "Value" is a moving standard that can be defined in so many different ways that the argument has no real parameters. And without parameters, it can have no set meaning. That is why I called it meaningless. And it is.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 11:09 am ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. |
I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015. |
Of course that doesn't really work either. Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson are all shadows of the player they were those years. They can't nearly produce the kind of output they had back then.
So without Fowles, what happens when Maya struggles like she did for the first half of this season.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 09/06/17 11:28 am ::: |
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She not going to win it and doesn't deserve to win it, but Diggins-Smith is as deserving as half the people included in this poll. Take her off the Wings and they finish behind San Antonio.
Charles, Fowles or Griner strike me as the only serious candidates.
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 6191 Location: Chicago-ish
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cappa23MVP
Joined: 29 Aug 2010 Posts: 411
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Posted: 09/06/17 12:45 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. |
I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015. |
Of course that doesn't really work either. Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson are all shadows of the player they were those years. They can't nearly produce the kind of output they had back then.
So without Fowles, what happens when Maya struggles like she did for the first half of this season. |
This is the bs that gets tossed around when it conveniently fits someone's argument. I don't want to hear about, Whalen, Brunson and Augustus being shadows of themselves.
Not when Tina Charles is playing with players that in their prime, don't compare with the level Whalen, Augustus and Brunson are right now. Really, would you take Vaughan over Brunson? Hartley over Whalen? Zellous over Augustus? Prince over Moore? Rodgers over Montgomery? Stokes over Howard? Allen over Perkins. Zaui B over a empty chair?
Charles over Fowles? Every day of the week and 3x's on Sunday.
Sylvia Fowles the Most Valuable player... this isn't as black and white...not with Tina Charles adding all these shades of gray to the picture.
_________________ TINA CHARLES IS A MOTHERFUKIN BOSS.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66958 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/06/17 1:08 pm ::: |
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Whatever you think of Parker's value to the Sparks, +/- is a bad stat
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/06/17 2:58 pm ::: |
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cappa23MVP wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
Aladyyn wrote: |
If you replace Fowles with a league average starting center, the Lynx still win 20+ games. |
I usually hate this kind of argument, but this isn't a bold statement. All you have to do is look at history 2011 to mid-2015. |
Of course that doesn't really work either. Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson are all shadows of the player they were those years. They can't nearly produce the kind of output they had back then.
So without Fowles, what happens when Maya struggles like she did for the first half of this season. |
This is the bs that gets tossed around when it conveniently fits someone's argument. I don't want to hear about, Whalen, Brunson and Augustus being shadows of themselves.
Not when Tina Charles is playing with players that in their prime, don't compare with the level Whalen, Augustus and Brunson are right now. Really, would you take Vaughan over Brunson? Hartley over Whalen? Zellous over Augustus? Prince over Moore? Rodgers over Montgomery? Stokes over Howard? Allen over Perkins. Zaui B over a empty chair?
Charles over Fowles? Every day of the week and 3x's on Sunday.
Sylvia Fowles the Most Valuable player... this isn't as black and white...not with Tina Charles adding all these shades of gray to the picture. |
I have no idea what you are talking about here. None of this has anything at all to do with the statement I was replying to, note that neither Tina Charles nor the Liberty were even in the discussion.
In the conversation that actually was happening, the relative abilities of Whalen, Augustus, and Brunson as compared to previous years matters greatly. Since, you know, that was the claim being made.
As for the Charles thing, show me the damn stats that show her having performed better (or, hell, even close to) Fowles this season and then you can "gray it up" all you want. I have yet to see an actual metric to support your case.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 09/06/17 3:21 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
As for the Charles thing, show me the damn stats that show her having performed better (or, hell, even close to) Fowles this season and then you can "gray it up" all you want. I have yet to see an actual metric to support your case. |
If there is any award that strikes me as not susceptible to simple mathematical modeling, it's MVP. Unless you want to reduce it to simply some pre-determined combination of PPG, RPG, APG and team standing. Seems to me that simply measures the statistical leader, any similarity to "Most Valuable Player" being entirely coincidental.
MVP strikes me as a totally subjective judgment.
(As an example, what are you going to do with someone who leads their team in scoring with 15 ppg on a team that averages 60ppg, vs another player who averages 17 ppg and is second in scoring on a team that averages 85 ppg? Does your "metric" dictate that player 2 deserves MVP over player 1?)
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017 Posts: 1560 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: 09/06/17 3:26 pm ::: |
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Sylvia Fowles 11.4 FGA
Maya Moore 13.8 FGA
Do Reeve and Whalen think that Fowles is the most valuable player on the Lynx?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66958 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/06/17 3:33 pm ::: |
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Aladyyn wrote: |
Sylvia Fowles 11.4 FGA
Maya Moore 13.8 FGA
Do Reeve and Whalen think that Fowles is the most valuable player on the Lynx? |
Those numbers barely changed after Whalen went out (Maya went up slightly and Fowles went down slightly) so it's not her.
FGA/game is a terrible way to determine value, unless you really believe Jonquel Jones is the 4th most valuable player on the Sun.
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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