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luvDhoops
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 Posted: 08/26/17 9:25 am ::: |
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Y'all do know that the Night King can warg and possibly has greensight right? Whether he's actually Bran or not (if you believe that theory) the show imo, has dropped breadcrumbs that either he's ALWAYS had the ability to greensee OR he came into this ability by touching Bran last season.
I believe that everything Beyond the Wall felt convenient because it was supposed to be and because it was a trap the NK planned out long or knew would happen.
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luvDhoops
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| Posted: 08/26/17 9:36 am ::: |
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| braveniler58 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
The time warping or teleportation was ridiculous in 7-6. At the shore of the lake they send Gendry to run back for help, and then they go to the tiny island in the middle of the lake and are immediately surrounded by the wights.
Gendry has to run all the way back to the Wall, have a raven fly at least 2000 miles to Dragonstone, and then Daenerys has to fly her dragons at least 2000 miles to the lake. Yet, this rescue seems to happen in a matter of hours.
When I watched season 6 for the second time, I picked up this line from Jon's uncle Benjen speaking to Bran and Meera that I had completely missed the first time: βThe Wallβs not just ice and stone. Ancient spells were carved into its foundation. Strong magic. To protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass. I cannot pass.β
This must mean the wights can't get past the wall unless it is destroyed. Perhaps this will be the role of Viserion, the new ice dragon. Will he spew fire or ice?
The hints at a budding romantic relationship between Jon and Daenerys seem thematically futile, since we now know for certain that Jon is the legitimate son of the marriage of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Daenerys is Jon's aunt, and the show can't bear another incestuous relationship, since that has been the great evil of Cersi and Jaime.
Speaking of the Lannisters, what did they ever do to make their family the bad guys? Yes, Jaime pushed Bran out the window, but that was a spontaneous personal protection act not a family-against-family, planned war aggression act. Cersi, Jaime and Tyrion are the ones who've suffered at the hands of others: hand chopped off, son poisoned, daughter murdered, son committing suicide, imprisonment and public shaming.
It's Daenerys who's killed thousands with her soldiers and dragons. Yet, she's being portrayed as more of a good guy than the Lannisters. |
Jon and Daenerys is going to happen. They don't even know they're related. Its silly to say that it won't happen because it's incestuous and the show already has an incestuous pairing. The fact Jaime and Cersei is a thing only makes it more likely that Jon and Daenerys will happen.
As for what the Lannisters did to be the bad guys, really? Are you seriously asking that?
-Jaime pushed Bran out of a window
-Joffrey tried to have Bran murdered
-Cersei murdered Robert Baratheon
-Joffrey ordered all of Robert's bastards murdered, including babies
-Joffrey cut off Ned's head and made enemies of the North instead of sending him off to the Night's Watch
-Cersei kept Sansa prisoner and forced her to marry Tyrion
-Joffrey tortured and murdered a couple of whores (Ros)
-Tywin murdered Robb Stark, Catelyn Stark and the entire Stark army at a wedding, after being provided of Guest Right, via the Freys and Boltons
-Cersei tried to empower the Faith Militant so they would do her dirty work and eliminate her enemies (Margaery Tyrell)
-When that backfired, she blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing the High Septon, the Tyrells apart from Olenna, and her own family members in Lancel and Kevan, leading to the suicide of her last child, then crowned herself Queen
-Cersei poisoned Tyene Sand and forced Ellaria to watch her die (although I can't complain about this one too much)
-This wasn't shown on the show but Cersei did mention it - the Lannisters wiped out House Castamere and wrote a song about it (Rains of Castamere)
Daenerys and her dragons have killed a lot of people and she hasn't always made the right decision, but she cares about others, especially the slaves she freed, unlike Cersei. Cersei cares about nobody except herself, and if I'm being honest - only herself/power, not even Jaime.
Not all of the Lannisters are bad, but the Lannisters are 100% the villainous family in GoT. I really don't know how you can conclude otherwise. |
Agreed.
Certain people only feel a certain way about Daenarys or the Targaryens in general because of where the story began.
Don't let it be lost that Tywin Lannister was a more evil man than even the Mad King. You can blame the Mad King's "evilness" on his losing his mind (and some theorize a certain time traveling novice contributed to that), Tywin was evil for pure power, money and legacy's sake. He once drowned an entire town even after its occupants had surrendered to him. He orchestrated the murder of Elia Martel, her infant son and their little daughter (which is why Prince Oberyn wanted them dead) and also ordered the assassination of little fetus Daenarys, her mother and a young Viserys.
Robert Baratheon wasn't much better as he agreed with this and it was the main point of contention between he and Ned at the end of Robert's rebellion.
ALL of this over a false notion that Rhaegar had kidnapped Llyanna and raped her (that's a whole other story). But mostly I believe, Robert used that as an excuse to try to claim the throne for himself as a Baratheon because Baratheons also have Targaryen blood which is why his rule was accepted so easily.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/26/17 7:41 pm ::: |
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| luvDhoops wrote: |
Certain people only feel a certain way about Daenarys or the Targaryens in general because of where the story began.
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How else are viewers of the show to judge the characters? It seems to me irrelevant what the books or "Wikis" say about the story if those facts were not presented, or only trivially mentioned, in the TV show. I don't see Tywin Lannister as any different from any of the other cast of dark and murdering characters in GoT, especially when he was functioning in a military capacity. In fact, I don't care much about him at all. I judge the important Lannisters -- Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion -- and also Dany by their recent actions, not by their ancestors.
No matter. I want to rant about Aryah.
She is reportedly the favorite character of many, including George Martin's wife. Yet, I think her story arc has been largely boring, contradictory and confusing ever since she ended her travels all over the landscape with the Mountain many years ago.
The whole dragged-out business of her time in Bravos -- sweeping the floor, washing bodies, selling oysters, wandering around blind -- was slow, tedious and uninteresting.
If the point was to train her as an assassin, she hasn't done anything yet with that training other than to kill Walter Frey and his family. What happened to her long kill list that she used to recite over and over? Now that there are only seven episodes left, there's not much time for her to assassinate anyone of importance.
Worse, she's now acting like an unlikable jerk in the uninteresting Winterfell scenes. Instead of being overjoyed at being reunited with her sister and brother, she demeans her sister and even sounds like she's threatening her with exposure or death -- even though Sansa has very logical and understandable reasons why, as a scared child, she wrote the letter to Robb years ago. Meanwhile, for all her many-faced assassin training, Aryah appears duped and played by the annoying Littlefinger, whose plot role also seems to be very forced and confused.
There's no time left in the TV series for new relationships to develop around Aryah. She's got to get with Stark family unity or start cutting throats.
Aryah, we hardly knew ye -- you now ungrateful and useless twit! |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/26/17 7:54 pm ::: |
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The love of Arya is mostly due to the novels. She is much better developed in them.
If I just had the show to go on I would not be so fully in her camp. But with the books she has become my favorite little psychopath.
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luvDhoops
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| Posted: 08/27/17 12:03 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| luvDhoops wrote: |
Certain people only feel a certain way about Daenarys or the Targaryens in general because of where the story began.
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How else are viewers of the show to judge the characters? It seems to me irrelevant what the books or "Wikis" say about the story if those facts were not presented, or only trivially mentioned, in the TV show. I don't see Tywin Lannister as any different from any of the other cast of dark and murdering characters in GoT, especially when he was functioning in a military capacity. In fact, I don't care much about him at all. I judge the important Lannisters -- Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion -- and also Dany by their recent actions, not by their ancestors. |
Everything I said is mentioned in the show, including the slaughtering of the Reins of Castamere which was the drowning. The show begins way after Robert's rebellion and so everything is initially from their perspective. But the show does drop these bits of info. One of the reasons I enjoy the story, very few people are right or wrong. They all have a valid perspective. Tywin was a nasty mofo though. That his entire legacy crashes and burns or lives on through the "imp" he hated, will be quite fitting.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/27/17 7:26 pm ::: |
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| 36:00 until the season finale....not sure how I'll play this. Watch live? Watch WNBA until 11:30 first? Torture myself and wait until the morrow?
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sambista
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| Posted: 08/27/17 9:29 pm ::: |
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| somebody, please! finish watching it so we can talk!
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/27/17 11:07 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| . . . Aryah. She's got to get with Stark family unity or start cutting throats. |
Good to see that she decided to do both. I sort of suspected the writers were playing games with Aryah, Sansa and Littlefinger. Otherwise, their actions at Winterfell made little sense.
So, John bangs his aunt. This will cause problems. He has a much stronger hereditary claim to the Iron Throne than Dany does, but she has dragons (for a while) and the Dothraki and the Unsullied armies. Will she voluntarily give up the regal power she's craved ever since we first met her in season 1?
Jon would do best to knock Dany off rather than up. Then marry Cersei to unite the Targaryen, Lannister and Stark lines. To bolster this, Sansa should marry Jaime and Tyrion should marry Aryah. This is the best way to bring peace to Westeros.
Of course, they have to defeat the white walkers and wights. This will probably come down to dragon-on-dragon battles and to Jon with his Valyrian sword battling the white walker Night King, mano-a-corpso. I don't think all the undead will be defeated. Some will retreat back behind the Wall for future stories. |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/27/17 11:14 pm ::: |
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| Chekhov's Dagger.
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cthskzfn
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/28/17 1:58 pm ::: |
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| i must admit i'll miss the conniving Baelish.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/28/17 4:18 pm ::: |
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Still bothering me is the Winterfell plot line featuring Aryah, Sansa and Baelish. I don't know the literary term for this -- maybe JIT does -- but it was essentially a fraud on the viewers. There never was any organic plot reason why Aryah and Sansa would APPEAR to be suspicious and hostile to each other, perhaps even planning to kill one another. It wasn't really going on. It was just fake plot, used by the writers to troll us viewers into believing something that wasn't really going on. I find this an inauthentic way to treat the audience of a story.
Now, onto Tyrion. Something is going on with this guy, perhaps in cahoots with Cersei.
First of all, he's been almost a complete incompetent in his advice to Dany ever since they arrived in Westeros. All his tactics and plans are dopey or fail, or both.
Second, consider what happened in the Dragon Pit and in Cersei's chamber thereafter. After Cersei refuses to help fight the undead because Jon won't agree to neutrality between Cersei and Dany, Tyrion berates Jon for not LYING once in a while in order to implement plans.
Then Tyrion trots off to try to change Cersei's mind. They mainly argue emotionally about the Lannister family, and they both seem to agree only that Tyrion loved Cersei's children. Then Tyrion blurts out the Cersei is pregnant, and the scene abruptly ends. We are not privy to their secret discussion about battling the undead.
Then Cersei marches back out to the pit and announces she will have her armies join in the fight against the undead, and asks for nothing in return.
Shorty after that, we find out that Cersei was LYING to Jon and Dany, and she's actually going to betray and attack them.
How to interpret this? Perhaps Cersei fooled Tyrion -- the newly minted dope -- who was tricked by Cersei in their secret conversation. Equally possible, however, is that Tyrion colluded with her. They agreed that she should tell a lie. Maybe Tyrion is changing sides again, knowing he will again be a Lannister uncle.
Finally, we see Tyrion in a final scene of the season snooping on Jon and Dany as they go behind closed doors to make incest. Why? |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/28/17 4:59 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Still bothering me is the Winterfell plot line featuring Aryah, Sansa and Baelish. I don't know the literary term for this -- maybe JIT does -- but it was essentially a fraud on the viewers. There never was any organic plot reason why Aryah and Sansa would APPEAR to be suspicious and hostile to each other, perhaps even planning to kill one another. It wasn't really going on. It was just fake plot, used by the writers to troll us viewers into believing something that wasn't really going on. I find this an inauthentic way to treat the audience of a story. |
There are some literary techniques that use this sort of narrative device. I think what this was attempting to do is create what is known in literature as a "red herring" (it similar to the logical fallacy as it is designed to take a reader/viewer down the wrong path). It is actually a very common device used in detective novels to ratchet up the suspense. Used correctly it can do just that, and lead to a surprising and enjoyable reveal: a kind of "Oh, Shit!" moment when the pieces all fall into place.
However, what happened in Winterfell is what happens when, imo, an attempted red herring is done poorly. They didn't spend near enough time developing the characters and plot in Winterfell to earn the ending they did. All we had was the red herring bits and a few other narrative devices to build upon. I predicted the outcome because I recognized the lazy attempts of suspense building, as it is something my first year writing students will do frequently. That and I recognized the whole dagger bit as a Chekhov's Gun, and it only made sense if it were to be used against Littlefinger. One of the foundational principles of writing is that the best endings are both surprising and inevitable. In other words, when looking back after reading it we think...well, damn, of course that is what happened. And on a reread/rewatch we should catch all the pieces that we missed the first time. This plot doesn't have the depth or time committed for that to be the case. There are no cookie crumbs that led to this inevitability, there was just a simple plot and a sudden reversal.
Compare a red herring done right with an amazing payoff, versus this recent plot line. In season one we have Ned's story of how he was betrayed and ultimately killed. Both the betrayal and his execution are surprising, and we are led to believe that something else was going to happen. Yet when the surprise hits, we realize that it fits perfectly. It really was the only thing that could happen with all the players involved.
So yeah, the correct literary term for the Littlefinger/Sansa/Arya storyline is "Amateurish" or perhaps just plain "Shitty" writing.
But it was still pretty cool to see Arya cut Littlefinger's throat. Just wished they'd have earned it better.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/28/17 6:44 pm ::: |
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It may not pass the literary sniff test, but the Arya Slice was a nice turn.
Must we insist on a Cersei "ok-i'll-fight-along-side-you-in-truce" scenario, so that later, when her true play is revealed, we say "Of Course the Bitch was Lying!! It's Cersei!!" ?
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/28/17 7:41 pm ::: |
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The red herring analysis is a good one. If a character in the plot, such as the detective, actually believes the red herring for a while, then it's okay that we the audience believe it too. But there was almost no logical plot reason why Sansa or Aryah should have believed one was going to kill the other, and I certainly never believed that herring as the audience. Bad, hurried, filler writing indeed.
Of course, once you start down the slope of analysis it's hard to stop. As satisfying as Littlefinger's throat slitting was, I found myself thinking of another analytical puzzle.
From the very beginning of the series, we were strongly impressed by Ned Stark about what one might call a "Stark Rule of Leadership" -- namely, that when a leader passes a death sentence, that leader must carry it out. Ned told that to Bran and made him watch the beheading of the Night Watch deserter. Bran's brothers, Jon and Robb, impressed this rule upon him. Jon followed the rule when he beheaded some traitor as the Commander of the Night Watch. There was some other episode of it that I can't precisely recall.
Yet when Lady Stark of Winterfell passed a death sentence on Littlefinger, she had her sister carry it out. Maybe this is what the audience expected, but what is the analyst supposed to make of this in the context of the Stark Rule of Leadership? That females can't follow the rule? That Sansa can't follow the rule? That the rule has exceptions? That the rule was never a rule? That we were supposed to forget the rule? Well, I can't. |
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/28/17 8:10 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
It may not pass the literary sniff test, but the Arya Slice was a nice turn.
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It was the correct outcome based upon who the characters have become over the series. So the actual result, and that scene, in and of itself, was awesome. If I were plotting out the major points in a story I was writting, "Arya executes Littlefinger on Sansa's order" would have been one of them. It just fits. The only problem is they tried to ramp up the drama before this with a poorly written arc where the sisters' actions and motivations are never explored with anything more than a cursory glance. That leaves the sudden surpise feeling disjointed from the rest of their actions this season.
IMO, it would have worked better for the two sisters to slowly learn to trust each other over the season, while Littlefinger pushes Sansa to do something that we know is a terrible decision for her. And have Arya realize this about Littlerfinger (because let's face it, understanding the truth behind all the lies and false faces is exactly what Arya has been training for and who she supposedly is now). The tension of this season could then come down to which person Sansa ultimately chooses to go with, and that could easily teeter until the final scene, even throwing some misdirection in to make it seem like she is going with Littlefinger until the last moment. In other words, don't spend the whole season making it seem that they are both easily manipulated idiots only to have them be "A HA! We were on to you the whole time, even when we were alone and you weren't around and would have had no reason to have half the conversations we had". Instead treat them as well rounded characters who have become formidable players running up against another master manipulator. Let us see the machinations on both sides and have us on the edge of our seats about who would pull it off in the end.
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braveniler58
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| Posted: 08/29/17 1:31 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
The red herring analysis is a good one. If a character in the plot, such as the detective, actually believes the red herring for a while, then it's okay that we the audience believe it too. But there was almost no logical plot reason why Sansa or Aryah should have believed one was going to kill the other, and I certainly never believed that herring as the audience. Bad, hurried, filler writing indeed.
Of course, once you start down the slope of analysis it's hard to stop. As satisfying as Littlefinger's throat slitting was, I found myself thinking of another analytical puzzle.
From the very beginning of the series, we were strongly impressed by Ned Stark about what one might call a "Stark Rule of Leadership" -- namely, that when a leader passes a death sentence, that leader must carry it out. Ned told that to Bran and made him watch the beheading of the Night Watch deserter. Bran's brothers, Jon and Robb, impressed this rule upon him. Jon followed the rule when he beheaded some traitor as the Commander of the Night Watch. There was some other episode of it that I can't precisely recall.
Yet when Lady Stark of Winterfell passed a death sentence on Littlefinger, she had her sister carry it out. Maybe this is what the audience expected, but what is the analyst supposed to make of this in the context of the Stark Rule of Leadership? That females can't follow the rule? That Sansa can't follow the rule? That the rule has exceptions? That the rule was never a rule? That we were supposed to forget the rule? Well, I can't. |
First of all, its Arya not Aryah.
You're right about Ned teaching the Starks that he who passes the sentence should execute it. Robb, Jon, Bran, and Theon all believe/follow/try to follow that.
Sansa (and Arya), however, were not taught that. I'm sure they're aware of that rule, but they were raised to be ladies. Sansa was taught how to sew, how to curtesy, how to run a castle, because she had been told many times that one day, she would be married off and sent to live in a faraway castle, much like she was to Joffrey.
Kings Landing is where Sansa grew up. Its where she learned the politics that go beyond simply running a castle. She was supposed to marry into royalty. She spent years being the hostage of the royal family. It makes sense for her to adopt some of the things she has seen, including having an executioner (Ilyn Payne).
And in the end, it wasn't some random scrub who executed Littlefinger, it was a Stark. I don't see an issue here.
I think the Winterfell storyline would have been better if we knew exactly when the Starks figured out Littlefinger was playing them. The beginning? When Bran said 'Chaos is a ladder'? When Littlefinger tried to convince Sansa that Arya wanted to be a lady? The exact timing would help make it all make sense. From the crimes Sansa listed, its pretty clear that Bran filled them in, but when?
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/29/17 8:08 am ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
It may not pass the literary sniff test, but the Arya Slice was a nice turn.
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It was the correct outcome based upon who the characters have become over the series. So the actual result, and that scene, in and of itself, was awesome. If I were plotting out the major points in a story I was writting, "Arya executes Littlefinger on Sansa's order" would have been one of them. It just fits. The only problem is they tried to ramp up the drama before this with a poorly written arc where the sisters' actions and motivations are never explored with anything more than a cursory glance. That leaves the sudden surpise feeling disjointed from the rest of their actions this season.
IMO, it would have worked better for the two sisters to slowly learn to trust each other over the season, while Littlefinger pushes Sansa to do something that we know is a terrible decision for her. And have Arya realize this about Littlerfinger (because let's face it, understanding the truth behind all the lies and false faces is exactly what Arya has been training for and who she supposedly is now). The tension of this season could then come down to which person Sansa ultimately chooses to go with, and that could easily teeter until the final scene, even throwing some misdirection in to make it seem like she is going with Littlefinger until the last moment. In other words, don't spend the whole season making it seem that they are both easily manipulated idiots only to have them be "A HA! We were on to you the whole time, even when we were alone and you weren't around and would have had no reason to have half the conversations we had". Instead treat them as well rounded characters who have become formidable players running up against another master manipulator. Let us see the machinations on both sides and have us on the edge of our seats about who would pull it off in the end. |
I understand and appreciate your POV but don't agree that I'm owed, especially w/ the constraints of TV, all the background you mention. We weren't privy to every communication between the Sisters Stark. I'm fine w/ it and feel it makes the slice that much more fun. 
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luvDhoops
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| Posted: 08/29/17 8:30 am ::: |
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| braveniler58 wrote: |
| I think the Winterfell storyline would have been better if we knew exactly when the Starks figured out Littlefinger was playing them. The beginning? When Bran said 'Chaos is a ladder'? When Littlefinger tried to convince Sansa that Arya wanted to be a lady? The exact timing would help make it all make sense. From the crimes Sansa listed, its pretty clear that Bran filled them in, but when? |
I think Sansa was always suspicious of anything LF had to say, but because Arya had been away so long and was this wild card, wasn't exactly sure if Arya's crazy behavior towards her was genuine or not. I believe she figured out that Arya was playing the game when she could've killed her, and told her about the faces, but essentially handed her the dagger.
I believe Arya acting erratic, was playing Sansa all along trying to gauge just what her true relationship to LF was and her true motives. She's good at knowing the truth vs. lies. Once she had settled that Sansa was true, she knew then that LF was the instigator.
I believe it was at some point towards the end of this either both of them or one of them went to Bran and dug deeper.
Personally, I'm ok with not seeing those details. There was just enough confusion for me to be like "these three are playing a game" and without knowing who'd be the most cunning and win, it made the ending that more satisfying to me personally.
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