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Who is a better franchise player? |
Stewart |
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67% |
[ 42 ] |
Jones |
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32% |
[ 20 ] |
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Total Votes : 62 |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 08/09/17 2:36 pm ::: |
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scrappy wrote: |
but considering the values are fairly equal. then the conventional basketball wisdom is you build your team around the big.
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Hmm. I disagree with that. Bigs, to me, are the least effective to build a team around. I would rather a star with a wide range of skills rather than just be able to beast down low. Think more the LeBron, Curry, Durant, and less Howard, Griffen, or Davis.
Stewart just has so many more facets to her game than Jones does. She is much more reliable on offense and has much better vision and ability to facilitate.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 08/09/17 3:29 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12535 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 08/09/17 3:42 pm ::: |
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Michelle89 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there |
Does she really need to ? With the system and support they have in Conn i dont think she needs to do that much . Can She ? Yes i believe she can , Could stewie average a double double for an entire season ???? hmmmmm
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 08/09/17 3:52 pm ::: |
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Stewart or Jones? I'd rather have a referee on my side.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32335
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Posted: 08/09/17 4:29 pm ::: Re: Jonquel Jones or Breanna Stewart? |
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barryi22 wrote: |
You're building a brand new team and have to pick between these two to be your franchise player. Who do you pick? |
great discussion. Thanks for starting this thread.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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TotalCardinalMove
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 1466
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24351 Location: London
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Posted: 08/09/17 5:19 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there |
Does she really need to ? With the system and support they have in Conn i dont think she needs to do that much . Can She ? Yes i believe she can , Could stewie average a double double for an entire season ???? hmmmmm |
Yeah, it's not like Stewart was 0.7 rebounds per game away from averaging a double-double as a rookie, or the fastest player in WNBA history to 1000pts/500rebs or anything.
The really remarkable thing is that a player that no one was sure about before the 2016 draft has made this a legitimate debate in barely 16 months. |
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 08/09/17 6:04 pm ::: |
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I find it very hard to debate from a physical talent or skill perspective. Stewart fans can say she's a better scorer, but Jones fans can respond that Jonquel is the better rebounder. They can both score inside outside and both handle the ball well for bigs. If you throw in potential development as a variable, then this argument can go on forever.
One thing we can definitely say about Stewart, that is unproven about Jones, is that Breanna has withstood the pressure of attention and expectations with relatively little problem. She was the number 1 recruit out of high school and the unquestioned number 1 pick in the WNBA draft. Stewart has met all expectations and more. She even withstood the brouhaha surrounding her selection to the Olympic team over Parker. Stewie is unflappable. She lived through Geno's browbeating and embraced it to improve as a player. She has survived being the focal point of opponents' defensive game plans year after year. And note that Stewart always seemed to have her best games at tournament time when the lights were brightest. So, I'm pretty sold on Breanna's mental and emotional makeup. As long as she's healthy, Stewart will get the most out of her talent. Not saying Jonquel won't be solid too, but she hasn't been tested like Stewie. And we do have that small blip of her transferring from Clemson to GW. Not necessarily meaningful, but there's at least a question about why she had to leave. Bad decision to begin with? Couldn't adjust to someone or something? Again, maybe not important but it's there.
Stewart just seems impervious to pressure, expectations or outside distractions. Therefore, I see her as a safer bet.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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scrappy
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 1880
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Posted: 08/09/17 6:18 pm ::: |
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Randy wrote: |
Stewart or Jones? I'd rather have a referee on my side. |
make that tommy nunez.
_________________ She's blonde, she can block. She is 6 foot five, she can deny. Though she is tall, she definitely can score. ya'al think she is quite nice, but on the court she can put up a fight.
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scrappy
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 1880
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Posted: 08/09/17 6:22 pm ::: |
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alright u stewie fans. while both have their merits of what and how. but if you look at the game last night that both of them were in the game, on the floor. who altered and dictated the game more?
JONQUEL JONES!!!
_________________ She's blonde, she can block. She is 6 foot five, she can deny. Though she is tall, she definitely can score. ya'al think she is quite nice, but on the court she can put up a fight.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3318
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Posted: 08/09/17 7:57 pm ::: |
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That makes about as much sense as deciding who ought to be ROY, based on who did better head-to-head between Sykes and Gray. I mean, the answer to both questions might end up being the same, anyway, but that's kind of a shitty metric to hang the decision on. You might as well decide between Stewart and Jones based on who put up better numbers against the Fever.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 08/09/17 8:52 pm ::: |
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I don't care much for which player is better debates, but it occurred to me it might be interesting to look at Advanced Stats from BBRef;
Rk Player G MP PER TS% eFG% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Breanna Stewart 25 831 24.3 .598 .542 .303 .425 6.5 24.0 15.9 14.6 1.6 3.9 13.0 28.0 112 103 2.6 1.2 3.8 .219
1 Jonquel Jones 25 715 27.9 .637 .573 .158 .450 15.6 31.6 23.5 7.3 1.6 3.7 11.1 21.3 129 98 3.8 1.6 5.4 .362
On the WNBA advanced stats its not very close.
Stewart is 8th (not counting Boyd) while Jones is 4 in PIE. Fowles, Griner, Nneka are best.
Jones seems to get extra credit for being on a good team (look at OR and DR) which is sort of the point I guess.
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scrappy
Joined: 18 May 2006 Posts: 1880
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Posted: 08/09/17 9:11 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
That makes about as much sense as deciding who ought to be ROY, based on who did better head-to-head between Sykes and Gray. I mean, the answer to both questions might end up being the same, anyway, but that's kind of a shitty metric to hang the decision on. You might as well decide between Stewart and Jones based on who put up better numbers against the Fever. |
it would makes sense if you look beyond numbers and stats. as i said, alter and dictate the game. the dynamic of the game is more than just who shoots and scores more.
_________________ She's blonde, she can block. She is 6 foot five, she can deny. Though she is tall, she definitely can score. ya'al think she is quite nice, but on the court she can put up a fight.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3318
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Posted: 08/09/17 9:56 pm ::: |
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scrappy wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
That makes about as much sense as deciding who ought to be ROY, based on who did better head-to-head between Sykes and Gray. I mean, the answer to both questions might end up being the same, anyway, but that's kind of a shitty metric to hang the decision on. You might as well decide between Stewart and Jones based on who put up better numbers against the Fever. |
it would makes sense if you look beyond numbers and stats. as i said, alter and dictate the game. the dynamic of the game is more than just who shoots and scores more. |
I don't disagree with that, but the verbiage of your post made it sound like you think we should take last night's game in isolation, and make our decision based solely on that.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24351 Location: London
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Posted: 08/10/17 3:52 am ::: |
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Randy wrote: |
I don't care much for which player is better debates, but it occurred to me it might be interesting to look at Advanced Stats from BBRef;
Rk Player G MP PER TS% eFG% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 Breanna Stewart 25 831 24.3 .598 .542 .303 .425 6.5 24.0 15.9 14.6 1.6 3.9 13.0 28.0 112 103 2.6 1.2 3.8 .219
1 Jonquel Jones 25 715 27.9 .637 .573 .158 .450 15.6 31.6 23.5 7.3 1.6 3.7 11.1 21.3 129 98 3.8 1.6 5.4 .362
On the WNBA advanced stats its not very close.
Stewart is 8th (not counting Boyd) while Jones is 4 in PIE. Fowles, Griner, Nneka are best.
Jones seems to get extra credit for being on a good team (look at OR and DR) which is sort of the point I guess. |
You can definitely make the argument that Jones is having a better season this year, but that's not necessarily the same thing as believing she's the better player or will be in future. Given the college production, plus last year and international play, Stewart's proven her quality over a longer period of time at this point. There's no real reason to believe that Jones can't continue being this good in future years, but outside of a few months in Korea this is basically the first time she's done it. The real stars do it year in and year out, which she still has to get to.
Health always ends up being a factor as well, and we have to see if Jones can continue to hold up under an increased workload. Although it'll help that she's Barbadian, and therefore basically gets to rest when other players will be with their international teams. The bidding war for her services would've been fierce if she was available internationally. |
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 08/10/17 4:25 am ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there |
Does she really need to ? With the system and support they have in Conn i dont think she needs to do that much . Can She ? Yes i believe she can , Could stewie average a double double for an entire season ???? hmmmmm |
Stewart averaged 18,3 pts and 9,3 rebounds in her rookie season
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12535 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 08/10/17 11:16 am ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there |
Does she really need to ? With the system and support they have in Conn i dont think she needs to do that much . Can She ? Yes i believe she can , Could stewie average a double double for an entire season ???? hmmmmm |
Stewart averaged 18,3 pts and 9,3 rebounds in her rookie season |
But is that a double double for the "Entire" Season ? |
If you get a double-double (for example 15pts and 10 rebounds in every) in every game or you average 10 rebounds per game (1 game 9 rebounds and the other 11 etc.) then i dont see why the one is so much better then the other. Yes no one has had a double double in EVERY game of the season and tbh i dont see that happening very soon.
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12535 Location: Dallas , Texas
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 08/10/17 12:21 pm ::: |
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One thing to consider in Jones vs. Stewart is that Jones' game is more dependent on her raw athleticism, which to me would mean that wear and tear could have greater potential effect on Jones than Stewart. Not to say Stewart isn't athletic, because of course she is. But Jones' offense is by large majority putbacks and open 3s. She's not much of a creator of her own offense. OTOH there's a second thing to consider. That same principle might show higher untapped potential in Jones. She can certainly handle the open court. So what if she develops a high capacity to create her own offense, given that she has the capability? Even as somewhat of a raw player she's dominant in certain areas of the game. What happens when she gains polish?
It's an interesting comparison. Honestly I can't say right now which I'd rather have with certainty. Given their games right this second, I'd take Stewart because I value perimeter versatility and playmaking in a player. Especially when combined with length, rim protection potential, and rebounding. But Jones' upside is also hard to ignore.
Also, if you look at CT, they have a lot of depth on offense, and they have so many creators that it really opens weak-side offensive rebounding opportunities for Jones. Especially when either Thomas forces defenses to scramble through penetrations. If you put Jones on Seattle given the difference in their style of play, you might have a situation where her rebounds per game would be about 1-2 per game lower. So, the personnel each player has plays a role too.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9618
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Posted: 08/10/17 3:14 pm ::: |
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I know Breanna Stewart was #1 out of high school. Looked for Jones rating and found she was #17 by ESPN/Hoopgurlz, and #4 at her position. And, they list her at 6'2" (Stewart is listed at 6'3" by them versus the 6'4" she is currently listed at).
From the comments on her ESPN page, Jones improved a lot in high school.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 08/10/17 3:39 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there |
Does she really need to ? With the system and support they have in Conn i dont think she needs to do that much . Can She ? Yes i believe she can , Could stewie average a double double for an entire season ???? hmmmmm |
Stewart averaged 18,3 pts and 9,3 rebounds in her rookie season |
But is that a double double for the "Entire" Season ? |
If you get a double-double (for example 15pts and 10 rebounds in every) in every game or you average 10 rebounds per game (1 game 9 rebounds and the other 11 etc.) then i dont see why the one is so much better then the other. Yes no one has had a double double in EVERY game of the season and tbh i dont see that happening very soon. |
Ok your changing my original question . I asked if she could "Average" a double double for an ENTIRE season . Your responses were answering a question that was never asked. But w/e there both great end of story |
No you asked something like pretending she couldnt do that by saying hmmm. So me and Richyyy responded that she was already close (0,7 rebound off averaging a double double) in her rookie year so i dont see no reason why she couldnt do that in the future.
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12535 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 08/10/17 3:47 pm ::: |
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Michelle89 wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
As always, the question is really "When will each of these players stop improving?"
If Jones gets better each year for the next five years and then plateaus, and Stewart gets better each year for the next three years and then plateaus, then Jones is the choice.
And, of course, vice versa.
But no one knows when a player will stop improving, and there's really no way to tell
You pays yer money and you takes yer choice ... |
But right now Jones is not at the same level scoring wise as Stewart not even close tbh so will Jones be able to average 20 pts per game next season or does it take her 2-3 more seasons to get there |
Does she really need to ? With the system and support they have in Conn i dont think she needs to do that much . Can She ? Yes i believe she can , Could stewie average a double double for an entire season ???? hmmmmm |
Stewart averaged 18,3 pts and 9,3 rebounds in her rookie season |
But is that a double double for the "Entire" Season ? |
If you get a double-double (for example 15pts and 10 rebounds in every) in every game or you average 10 rebounds per game (1 game 9 rebounds and the other 11 etc.) then i dont see why the one is so much better then the other. Yes no one has had a double double in EVERY game of the season and tbh i dont see that happening very soon. |
Ok your changing my original question . I asked if she could "Average" a double double for an ENTIRE season . Your responses were answering a question that was never asked. But w/e there both great end of story |
No you asked something like pretending she couldnt do that by saying hmmm. So me and Richyyy responded that she was already close (0,7 rebound off averaging a double double) in her rookie year so i dont see no reason why she couldnt do that in the future. |
And your still circling around answering the original question . I didnt ask if she had been close i asked if she could and you began this rant as if i said shes not capable. Get over yourself already ive stated both are great players dont try & turn this into something else please
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66908 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/10/17 3:51 pm ::: |
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Jones is a legit Cruiserweight while Stewart is a puffed up Super Middleweight. It would be no contest.
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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