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| Who will win this game? |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 22474
Location: NJ
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 Posted: 08/06/17 7:28 pm ::: |
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| I just seems like this season anybody can beat anyone on any given night regardless of their record.
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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bballgrl
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| Posted: 08/06/17 7:39 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| I just seems like this season anybody can beat anyone on any given night regardless of their record. |
#1 and #2 both lost tonight.
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 08/06/17 7:39 pm ::: |
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I've just re-watched the last minute of the game to check on what I thought was shoddy officiating real time. First, on the Mitchell injury, there is no question that Fowles moves into Mitchell and catches her shoulder or upper forearm on Mitchell's nose. I'm not a big fan of the flagrant foul rule, but if you are going to have it this is textbook contact above the shoulder.
Second. the shot by Augustus appears to go in with 24.5 seconds to go. The TV clock stops at 24.0 and then restarts briefly and runs to 23.7. I can accept the additional 0.5 seconds running off and I assume the 0.3 was due to not realizing that Indiana had called time out. But how does the game restart with only 19 seconds to go?
With all the time being spent on reviews it just seems like the referees are overwhelmed and can't control the games.
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: 08/06/17 7:53 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| adamj95 wrote: |
| I seem to remember January elbowing Fowles in the 2015 finals. |
I recall Fowles elbow giving Lyttle a concussion a few years back. I believe it kept Sancho out of he all star game.
I also Herrington getting a concussion on the Lynx home court. |
Fowles also injured Griners eye a few years back which kept Griner from playing in the Finals if I remember correctly. Then this year Griner goes down after a mix up with Fowels which has kept her from playing from then to now.
Has any other player taken out as many players as Fowles?
Tonight she took out Mitchell with a definite foul which wasn't called!
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 08/06/17 8:57 pm ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
| First, on the Mitchell injury, there is no question that Fowles moves into Mitchell and catches her shoulder or upper forearm on Mitchell's nose. I'm not a big fan of the flagrant foul rule, but if you are going to have it this is textbook contact above the shoulder. |
There is no way that was flagrant. Even the homer announcers were calling it incidental on replay.
Fowles is entiteld to that spot. Mitchell literally ran her nose into Fowles. Sucks to see someone get hurt, but there was little to no movement by Fowles other than to brace herself.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 7365
Location: Underground
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| Posted: 08/06/17 9:51 pm ::: |
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| bballgrl wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| adamj95 wrote: |
| I seem to remember January elbowing Fowles in the 2015 finals. |
I recall Fowles elbow giving Lyttle a concussion a few years back. I believe it kept Sancho out of he all star game.
I also Herrington getting a concussion on the Lynx home court. |
Fowles also injured Griners eye a few years back which kept Griner from playing in the Finals if I remember correctly. Then this year Griner goes down after a mix up with Fowels which has kept her from playing from then to now.
Has any other player taken out as many players as Fowles?
Tonight she took out Mitchell with a definite foul which wasn't called! |
I've never seen it confirmed, but it was rumored that Fowles caused Shameka Christon's eye injury in 2010. The incident occurred during practice, so no outsiders saw it happen. Supposedly a Fowles elbow fractured Christon's eye socket. However, I've never seen it described as anything other than an unspecified "eye injury." Christon ended up missing the rest of the season (24 games).
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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| Posted: 08/06/17 10:58 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| First, on the Mitchell injury, there is no question that Fowles moves into Mitchell and catches her shoulder or upper forearm on Mitchell's nose. I'm not a big fan of the flagrant foul rule, but if you are going to have it this is textbook contact above the shoulder. |
There is no way that was flagrant. Even the homer announcers were calling it incidental on replay.
Fowles is entiteld to that spot. Mitchell literally ran her nose into Fowles. Sucks to see someone get hurt, but there was little to no movement by Fowles other than to brace herself. |
Brace herself against what, Mitchell's nose. Fowles wasn't under the basket and SHE ran into Mitchell.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 08/07/17 12:09 am ::: |
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You have to include Leslie Leslie in the conversation of most injuries, especially noses. I know that she accomplished several in P12 play before she got to the pros.
And yes, Syl effectively ended Christon's career. She never came back as the same player. I doubt it was purposeful, but it happened.
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5155
Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 08/07/17 2:35 am ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| First, on the Mitchell injury, there is no question that Fowles moves into Mitchell and catches her shoulder or upper forearm on Mitchell's nose. I'm not a big fan of the flagrant foul rule, but if you are going to have it this is textbook contact above the shoulder. |
There is no way that was flagrant. Even the homer announcers were calling it incidental on replay.
Fowles is entiteld to that spot. Mitchell literally ran her nose into Fowles. Sucks to see someone get hurt, but there was little to no movement by Fowles other than to brace herself. |
There was a call earlier in the fourth quarter in which January was called for a flagrant foul on a play where she had her hand outstretched as she tried to drive around Maya Moore. The original call was a foul on Moore but on review the refs called a flagrant on January. There is no way that was a flagrant foul under any interpretation, but it was made as a way of negating what they believed was a bad call against Moore. The Fowles play was subtle, but she was clearly moving into Mitchell and the effect of the play was to cause an injury.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
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| Posted: 08/07/17 7:14 am ::: |
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| bballgrl wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| First, on the Mitchell injury, there is no question that Fowles moves into Mitchell and catches her shoulder or upper forearm on Mitchell's nose. I'm not a big fan of the flagrant foul rule, but if you are going to have it this is textbook contact above the shoulder. |
There is no way that was flagrant. Even the homer announcers were calling it incidental on replay.
Fowles is entiteld to that spot. Mitchell literally ran her nose into Fowles. Sucks to see someone get hurt, but there was little to no movement by Fowles other than to brace herself. |
Brace herself against what, Mitchell's nose. Fowles wasn't under the basket and SHE ran into Mitchell. |
Didnt see the game. When did it happen?
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5155
Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 08/07/17 8:35 am ::: |
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| The calls in question are all in the final five minutes. The January play with Moore happens first. The other plays happen in the final minute.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 08/07/17 8:52 am ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| First, on the Mitchell injury, there is no question that Fowles moves into Mitchell and catches her shoulder or upper forearm on Mitchell's nose. I'm not a big fan of the flagrant foul rule, but if you are going to have it this is textbook contact above the shoulder. |
There is no way that was flagrant. Even the homer announcers were calling it incidental on replay.
Fowles is entiteld to that spot. Mitchell literally ran her nose into Fowles. Sucks to see someone get hurt, but there was little to no movement by Fowles other than to brace herself. |
There was a call earlier in the fourth quarter in which January was called for a flagrant foul on a play where she had her hand outstretched as she tried to drive around Maya Moore. The original call was a foul on Moore but on review the refs called a flagrant on January. There is no way that was a flagrant foul under any interpretation, but it was made as a way of negating what they believed was a bad call against Moore. The Fowles play was subtle, but she was clearly moving into Mitchell and the effect of the play was to cause an injury. |
January swang her arm back to try and free herself from a defender. That swing hit a player above the neck, and is not considered a "basketball play". Not sure how that wouldn't be a flagrant...
The Fowles play was only dramatic because a player was writhing on the ground afterward. But there was no swing of her arms, and movement was minimal and incidental to the play. It is the type of play we see on almost every possession. While I don't think it was the case, if someone felt she was moving or was late to the spot it would have been a normal foul as it was a normal basketball play. But it wasn't called that on the court, and they cannot come back with a foul that wasn't called, only a flagrant if it was missed. And without any arm swinging or excessive movement beyond just setting a screen, there is no way that could be considered flagrant.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/07/17 10:45 am ::: |
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I doubt that partisan fans will ever agree this one so I won't even try, but I would like to explore the rule.
I suppose I should read the rule, but I won't because the announcers talk about it all the time. What confuses me is that some of the announcers say quite often that any contact neck above is Flagrant 1. But frequently it isn't called that way apparently under the presumption that there was no hostile intent, no one has been taken to hospital or whatever.
Determining intent and whether it was excessive or unneeded contact is pretty hard. I would just go with contact neck or above is a Flagrant 1. For Flagrant 2, of course, you would have to look at more issues because it is an ejection. I might even change the name of the foul from Flagrant 1 to something wimpier but less judgemental, like protected area foul. My feeling is the game it already to 'physical" (euphemism for dirty) and it would clean things up a bit.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 08/07/17 10:49 am ::: |
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| Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
| Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| what a shit call |
Agree. She didn't touch Maya. |
And to foul out on that call. So sad. |
From my perspective, Gwathmey did not have defensive position as she moved through the lane and when Moore went up for the shot she hit her with the body.
That's a great offensive move that takes advantage of the way the game has been played and called since its inception. If an offensive player can get a defender to move, a skilled offensive player can take advantage of that movement to create contact and draw a foul.
In this particular situation, an elite defender would recognize that the chances of Moore making that particular shot were much lower than the chances of her drawing a foul and would have stopped moving with her momentarily. That's really hard, though, and requires lots of experience and body control.
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kojthiabkuv
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 08/07/17 10:50 am ::: |
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| was at a birthday party yesterday... should i even watch this...??!
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911
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| Posted: 08/07/17 10:52 am ::: |
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| kojthiabkuv wrote: |
| was at a birthday party yesterday... should i even watch this...??! |
You might not like the outcome but it was an exciting, hard fought game. Of course, the element of surprise is gone, so maybe its not worth it. I can usually speed through a game pretty quick though, but skipping timeouts, interviews and free throws (unless the matter in the last few minutes.)
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kojthiabkuv
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 08/07/17 11:44 am ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| kojthiabkuv wrote: |
| was at a birthday party yesterday... should i even watch this...??! |
You might not like the outcome but it was an exciting, hard fought game. Of course, the element of surprise is gone, so maybe its not worth it. I can usually speed through a game pretty quick though, but skipping timeouts, interviews and free throws (unless the matter in the last few minutes.) |
hmm.. i'm having a crappy morning at work.. so i think i'll pass..
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 5155
Location: Carson City
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| Posted: 08/07/17 12:33 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
[January swang her arm back to try and free herself from a defender. That swing hit a player above the neck, and is not considered a "basketball play". Not sure how that wouldn't be a flagrant...
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I guess we''ll just disagree. But I haven't heard anyone comment about the clock problem. How do you lose 5 seconds at the end of the game like that?
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
Posts: 1560
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 08/07/17 12:46 pm ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
[January swang her arm back to try and free herself from a defender. That swing hit a player above the neck, and is not considered a "basketball play". Not sure how that wouldn't be a flagrant...
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I guess we''ll just disagree. But I haven't heard anyone comment about the clock problem. How do you lose 5 seconds at the end of the game like that? |
Before the play continued it showed 19 but when they inbouded it jumped to 24.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 08/07/17 12:56 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
I doubt that partisan fans will ever agree this one so I won't even try, but I would like to explore the rule.
I suppose I should read the rule, but I won't because the announcers talk about it all the time. What confuses me is that some of the announcers say quite often that any contact neck above is Flagrant 1. But frequently it isn't called that way apparently under the presumption that there was no hostile intent, no one has been taken to hospital or whatever.
Determining intent and whether it was excessive or unneeded contact is pretty hard. I would just go with contact neck or above is a Flagrant 1. For Flagrant 2, of course, you would have to look at more issues because it is an ejection. I might even change the name of the foul from Flagrant 1 to something wimpier but less judgemental, like protected area foul. My feeling is the game it already to 'physical" (euphemism for dirty) and it would clean things up a bit. |
Intent doesn't really matter (at least for flag 1. Intent could make flag 1 into a flag 2). And it just being above the neck is not enough for a flag 1 call. The strike above the neck has to come from a move that was not "basketball related". So if a player is swinging their elbows to create space and connects with a player in the head or neck area it is a flag 1 at least, regardless of intent. But now say a player goes up for a block, and whiffs on the ball and then connects with the head or neck area, it is not a flag because it is within the confines of a player doing their job (though it would be a normal foul). If they took a huge windup, however, that could be interpreted as excessive and lead to a flag call.
This game actually demonstrates well the difference. Two different plays, both leading to contact with another player's face. In the first, January throws her arm back to create seperation. This is not considered normal basketball play, just as swinging arms after a rebound to create space is not considered such. Thus that contact is a flag one call. Refs will often let players get away with those types of plays without a foul call, but if you connect to with the defender's head or neck, they won't let it go (and are trained to not, for player saftey).
In the other play, Fowles was setting a screen. She did not swing her arms, nor were they at an odd level moving in (they were folded into her body, as players are trained to do when screening). Thus this play is a normal basketball movement. While there seems to be some partisan debate as to whether she got there in time, that would only be a question of a normal foul or not. If she was late it was a normal foul, if she was on time it was a legal play (also note that when refs review for a potential flag, they cannot call a normal foul if one was not called on the floor, only a flag if it meets the requirements. Being late to a screen, even of it injures a player, does not meet the definition of a flagrant.
So in one, an arm was swung away from the body and connected with another player's head. This was called a flagrant. In the other, the arms were tucked in, but still resulted in contact with another player's face. This was called not a flagrant. One was part of normal play, one was excessive and unnecessary movement. This is exactly how the rule is written.
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Last edited by justintyme on 08/07/17 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 08/07/17 1:01 pm ::: |
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| calbearman76 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
[January swang her arm back to try and free herself from a defender. That swing hit a player above the neck, and is not considered a "basketball play". Not sure how that wouldn't be a flagrant...
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I guess we''ll just disagree. But I haven't heard anyone comment about the clock problem. How do you lose 5 seconds at the end of the game like that? |
We can disagree, but when has "clearing space" ever been considered a normal basketball play? That is called a flagrant just about every time upon review. Just like swinging elbows/arms after a rebound.
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 08/07/17 3:17 pm ::: |
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| Aladyyn wrote: |
| calbearman76 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
[January swang her arm back to try and free herself from a defender. That swing hit a player above the neck, and is not considered a "basketball play". Not sure how that wouldn't be a flagrant...
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I guess we''ll just disagree. But I haven't heard anyone comment about the clock problem. How do you lose 5 seconds at the end of the game like that? |
Before the play continued it showed 19 but when they inbouded it jumped to 24. |
Thank you
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