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Stars @ Sun - 7/16/17

 
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Who will win this game?
Stars
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Sun
90%
 90%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 11

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Shades



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PostPosted: 07/15/17 1:25 pm    ::: Stars @ Sun - 7/16/17 Reply Reply with quote

Uncasville, CT - 3:00 PM ET
TV: CSNHD
Online: League Pass

Game info:
http://www.wnba.com/game/20170716/SANCON



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SUN hosts Stars while NYL hosts EDD/Hill-less Mystics.

SUN should regain sole possession of 1st today.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Johnson has Plum on Stricklen, which suggests she doesn't think Plum is quick enough to guard Thomas or Williams. Plum is playing defense the way Hammon used to - sagging way off and looking to double team or clog passing lanes. It led to Stricklen getting a wide open three.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jefferson is back. There goes Plum's minutes.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Jefferson is back. There goes Plum's minutes.


Hopefully.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

how are the Sun not rolling over the Stars right now?



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Shades



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Are the Sun looking a little tired?

40-35 SAN at the half



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 2:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
how are the Sun not rolling over the Stars right now?


A combination of the Sun's 10 hour flight home, getting home at 10pm Friday night, and no time for much of a shoot around this morning, still tired form the back to back and the Stars coming in with the energy. I don't see San Antonio as an improved team from the beginning of the season what so ever. They're just capitalizing off the Sun's full out sluggishness today.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Add in the 30-pt drubbing CT handed SA last time they played.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

holy shit. BOTH Lobo and Usler think there was no foul on JT there for knocking Plum over? Rolling Eyes



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SUN righting the ship, as a good team should.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Curt Miller trying to fire up the crowd (and then gets bowled over by a Stars player). He is so intense. He's going to turn out to be the best coach in franchise history. He's on his way. I love that mate! So fun to watch.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

He's nuts if he thinks a crowd of old CT women's basketball fans are gonna get too noisy. Laughing



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
He's nuts if he thinks a crowd of old CT women's basketball fans are gonna get too noisy. Laughing


LOL. They got up though, tripping over their walkers, but they got up. I was at the Seattle game a couple weeks ago and those old ladies were LOUD that night.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jefferson trying to force things too much and turning the ball over too much as a result.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bonehead pass from Hamby Confused



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This game went from a potential Stars win to looking like a Sun blowout.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

33 points by the Sun that quarter. That's more of what I was expecting.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How long before Johnson is fired?

Uh-oh, McBride



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VJ has looked concerned/upset this game, even when the Stars were leading. Her look isn't out of place given their record, but my recollection is she usually seems more animated and upbeat.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
How long before Johnson is fired?


Contract probably won't be renewed. She got that no-confidence one year contract.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Did I see KMac leave on crutches?


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WfanFrJmp wrote:
Did I see KMac leave on crutches?


Any update? David?



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WfanFrJmp



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://twitter.com/SAStars/status/886741301382742016

Hopefully, it's something minor.


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was hoping it was just a tweak.. Confused

Get better soon Kayla!

She's been one of the best players on my fantasy team and the reason why I've watched so many Stars games this year Exclamation



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WfanFrJmp wrote:
https://twitter.com/SAStars/status/886741301382742016

Hopefully, it's something minor.

Left ankle is better news than left knee. Could still be the Achilles, which would be horrible, but they definitely seemed to be doing ACL tests when she went down. Hopefully it was just an ankle sprain.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


The DNS podcast in the SA 2017 thread gives the answer to that. (Not saying it is a good answer.) It's pretty short and gets right to that point.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm with you on that analysis -- but Plum is a young player with potential, and she finally has a good shooting game. Why play Colson? I can see going with McBride or Jefferson, but Colson?



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Randy



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VJ said she subs when someone misses a defensive assignment. By the end of the game probably you are left with Colson, I guess.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
VJ said she subs when someone misses a defensive assignment.


Wow ...

I wouldn't even do that with a good high school team. Now when I'm coaching fifth graders when results don't matter, I'll make those changes because it gets a girl's attention. But if I'm trying to win games at the professional level, I don't think so.

Look at it this way: VJ has a defensive system that requires players to be in certain spots at certain times. It's midseason and she is dealing with elite players, and yet they are still missing assignments.

Options:

1) Her method of reinforcement (out of the game) isn't working.

2) Pick one: The system is too difficult for her players (VJ's fault); or it isn't too difficult and she can't teach it well enough for them to do it (VJ's fault); or she can't motivate them well enough for them to buy in (VJ's fault).

3) The players are ignoring her.

Note that you can still have a bad team with a bad record but still have players in the right place at the right time. You can fulfill your assignment and still get beaten by a superior athlete (God knows I've seen enough of my teams do that). This is not about how good your players are, but how well they execute the system.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you actually watched the game, in the first half San Antonio played much better once the first raft of subs were made at the midpoint of the first quarter, so VJ barely made any subs for the rest of the half. So Plum played only five minutes. In the second half, Connecticut ran them off the floor in the third quarter whatever lineup they threw out there, although Plum's multiple turnovers and a 'Block me!' shot attempt got the Sun started. The rest of the game was garbage time.

In general, I agree, Plum needs to play more. And the offense in general is an absolute disaster (statistically, they've been surprisingly middle-of-the-pack on the defensive end for most of the season). But in any individual game things happen that push the coach in certain directions.

The biggest problem is that while VJ's not done a great job this season, Plum's play hasn't demanded any more minutes than she's gotten. She's lightweight, she struggles to hold onto the ball, and she's rarely going to finish amongst the trees inside. That basically makes her a three-point shooter (who's only shooting 32% from outside anyway) who can occasionally run a pick-and-roll. That's about it. Considering how terrible they are, maybe she should just be left to sink(-or-swim), but it must be tough as a coach when you've got a way better option (Jefferson) and an arguably better option (Colson) sat next to you.

I'd still love to have seen more of Jefferson and Plum playing together. Injuries have complicated it, but VJ has basically rejected that option, and continues to do so. That I have no defense for, because I think it's pretty dumb. Try it. Especially against teams with short 2s where there's minimal defensive risk.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


Exaclty the same player that Rachel Banham is and she is in year #2 and plays even less minutes and produces even less than Plum. And both were lottery picks. Both teams GM's were fooled by points scored in college.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


Unfortunate that she was touted as UW's first McDonald's All-American. She was, in fact, the program's second. The first was local product Katie Collier, who tied the record for blocks in the McDonald's AA game despite battling leukemia and undergoing treatment during her senior year in high school.

Every year there are so many undersized 2 guards coming out of college who were great scorers at that level. Obviously none of them accomplished what Plum had, but there is just very little space in the league for undersized 2 guards unless maybe they are also above average defenders. Plum is not as bad a defender as many think--for almost half of her career at UW, she was assigned to guard the other team's best guard. Even without the ankle injury, though, I'm not convinced she can effectively guard the 2 in this league on a consistent basis. Maybe if the Stars guards were healthy, they could run an offense at a quick enough pace and control the pace enough to cover up some of the liabilities of such a small lineup.

UW ran a pretty atypical offensive system. Not likely something we would see in the pros. Neighbors designed the system around the personnel and it worked--the Huskies won a lot of games. One unfortunate fallout, though, is that Plum did not graduate ready to run a pro offense. But the Huskies wouldn't have had the kind of success that they had under Neighbors if they hadn't played to their strengths. Where that would have left Plum is anybody's guess. She is limited physically at the 2 in the pros--it's not impossible, but limiting. She could also improve as a point guard. I still believe she and Jefferson can play together...I'll have to remember to listen to VJ on the podcast when I get home tonight.

Anyway...she will keep at it. She will get better because she will not be outworked. It's a tough situation and there is a lot that is beyond her control, but she will be okay as long as she focuses on what she can control.


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PostPosted: 07/18/17 9:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ay Mate wrote:
tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


Exaclty the same player that Rachel Banham is and she is in year #2 and plays even less minutes and produces even less than Plum. And both were lottery picks. Both teams GM's were fooled by points scored in college.


I would agree, though I don't know if SA had a better choice ...

But regardless, you know how good Sidney Colson is and will be. It is possible, if not necessarily likely, that Kelsey Plum can be a serviceable WNBA player. So why would you give minutes to Colson in a game in which Plum is finally shooting the ball well?



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