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Stars @ Sun - 7/16/17
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Who will win this game?
Stars
9%
 9%  [ 1 ]
Sun
90%
 90%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 11

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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WfanFrJmp wrote:
https://twitter.com/SAStars/status/886741301382742016

Hopefully, it's something minor.

Left ankle is better news than left knee. Could still be the Achilles, which would be horrible, but they definitely seemed to be doing ACL tests when she went down. Hopefully it was just an ankle sprain.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?



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Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


The DNS podcast in the SA 2017 thread gives the answer to that. (Not saying it is a good answer.) It's pretty short and gets right to that point.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm with you on that analysis -- but Plum is a young player with potential, and she finally has a good shooting game. Why play Colson? I can see going with McBride or Jefferson, but Colson?



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Randy



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VJ said she subs when someone misses a defensive assignment. By the end of the game probably you are left with Colson, I guess.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
VJ said she subs when someone misses a defensive assignment.


Wow ...

I wouldn't even do that with a good high school team. Now when I'm coaching fifth graders when results don't matter, I'll make those changes because it gets a girl's attention. But if I'm trying to win games at the professional level, I don't think so.

Look at it this way: VJ has a defensive system that requires players to be in certain spots at certain times. It's midseason and she is dealing with elite players, and yet they are still missing assignments.

Options:

1) Her method of reinforcement (out of the game) isn't working.

2) Pick one: The system is too difficult for her players (VJ's fault); or it isn't too difficult and she can't teach it well enough for them to do it (VJ's fault); or she can't motivate them well enough for them to buy in (VJ's fault).

3) The players are ignoring her.

Note that you can still have a bad team with a bad record but still have players in the right place at the right time. You can fulfill your assignment and still get beaten by a superior athlete (God knows I've seen enough of my teams do that). This is not about how good your players are, but how well they execute the system.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you actually watched the game, in the first half San Antonio played much better once the first raft of subs were made at the midpoint of the first quarter, so VJ barely made any subs for the rest of the half. So Plum played only five minutes. In the second half, Connecticut ran them off the floor in the third quarter whatever lineup they threw out there, although Plum's multiple turnovers and a 'Block me!' shot attempt got the Sun started. The rest of the game was garbage time.

In general, I agree, Plum needs to play more. And the offense in general is an absolute disaster (statistically, they've been surprisingly middle-of-the-pack on the defensive end for most of the season). But in any individual game things happen that push the coach in certain directions.

The biggest problem is that while VJ's not done a great job this season, Plum's play hasn't demanded any more minutes than she's gotten. She's lightweight, she struggles to hold onto the ball, and she's rarely going to finish amongst the trees inside. That basically makes her a three-point shooter (who's only shooting 32% from outside anyway) who can occasionally run a pick-and-roll. That's about it. Considering how terrible they are, maybe she should just be left to sink(-or-swim), but it must be tough as a coach when you've got a way better option (Jefferson) and an arguably better option (Colson) sat next to you.

I'd still love to have seen more of Jefferson and Plum playing together. Injuries have complicated it, but VJ has basically rejected that option, and continues to do so. That I have no defense for, because I think it's pretty dumb. Try it. Especially against teams with short 2s where there's minimal defensive risk.



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Ay Mate



Joined: 12 Nov 2016
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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


Exaclty the same player that Rachel Banham is and she is in year #2 and plays even less minutes and produces even less than Plum. And both were lottery picks. Both teams GM's were fooled by points scored in college.


bcdawg04



Joined: 12 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: 07/17/17 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


Unfortunate that she was touted as UW's first McDonald's All-American. She was, in fact, the program's second. The first was local product Katie Collier, who tied the record for blocks in the McDonald's AA game despite battling leukemia and undergoing treatment during her senior year in high school.

Every year there are so many undersized 2 guards coming out of college who were great scorers at that level. Obviously none of them accomplished what Plum had, but there is just very little space in the league for undersized 2 guards unless maybe they are also above average defenders. Plum is not as bad a defender as many think--for almost half of her career at UW, she was assigned to guard the other team's best guard. Even without the ankle injury, though, I'm not convinced she can effectively guard the 2 in this league on a consistent basis. Maybe if the Stars guards were healthy, they could run an offense at a quick enough pace and control the pace enough to cover up some of the liabilities of such a small lineup.

UW ran a pretty atypical offensive system. Not likely something we would see in the pros. Neighbors designed the system around the personnel and it worked--the Huskies won a lot of games. One unfortunate fallout, though, is that Plum did not graduate ready to run a pro offense. But the Huskies wouldn't have had the kind of success that they had under Neighbors if they hadn't played to their strengths. Where that would have left Plum is anybody's guess. She is limited physically at the 2 in the pros--it's not impossible, but limiting. She could also improve as a point guard. I still believe she and Jefferson can play together...I'll have to remember to listen to VJ on the podcast when I get home tonight.

Anyway...she will keep at it. She will get better because she will not be outworked. It's a tough situation and there is a lot that is beyond her control, but she will be okay as long as she focuses on what she can control.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 07/18/17 9:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ay Mate wrote:
tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Plum finally shoots the ball well and VJ plays Colson more minutes. You're going to lose anyway, if not tonight, then the rest of the season, so why not develop your asset?


VJ only has a one year contract so that doesn't give her time to develop players instead of trying to win.

Yesterday Plum started both halves (with de Souza who also gets pulled early and complicates it ) and it was 10-6 Sun when both left the first quarter. The half ended 40-35 Stars. Both started the second half. It was 45-44 Sun when both got pulled in the 3rd quarter.

Plum was a #1 pick which normally means she should be playing a lot. But if you take away the scoring record, I don't think Plum is a #1 pick (or lottery pick) and her minutes wouldn't be watched any more than Nia Coffey's are. At least I don't remember "Plum #1" talk until she approached and hit the record. It definitely influenced me. I remember seeing Plum doing very well for Washington and the announcers raving about her and how she was their first McDonald's All-American. But my impression was that she was too small and not quick enough for the WNBA. But I dropped that opinion when she was a senior and going for the scoring record. However, while her skill was involved in the scoring record, it was also in large part due to her durability and her coach. She never missed a game in college, and the coach played her over 37 minutes a game letting her shoot whenever she wanted.


Exaclty the same player that Rachel Banham is and she is in year #2 and plays even less minutes and produces even less than Plum. And both were lottery picks. Both teams GM's were fooled by points scored in college.


I would agree, though I don't know if SA had a better choice ...

But regardless, you know how good Sidney Colson is and will be. It is possible, if not necessarily likely, that Kelsey Plum can be a serviceable WNBA player. So why would you give minutes to Colson in a game in which Plum is finally shooting the ball well?



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