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Mystics @ Liberty - 7/16/17
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Who will win this game?
Mystics
40%
 40%  [ 8 ]
Liberty
60%
 60%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 20

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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.


I've never been crazy about Prince playing lead guard/point guard. The argument for it was obvious: having Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time. But the argument doesn't hold unless Prince does a good job at point guard. It may simply be that this team is better without Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time--even when that means that one of the Liberty's best three scorers won't be on the floor.


Agreed! It's the same problem Pondexter and Carson both had. They get into this slow-down approach, and they become passive passers, not facilitators who can also shoot. It's like they think it's a binary: passer OR scorer.


Maybe their Rutgers education is at fault.


There's a lot of factors involved. Carson wasn't a "vision" player. Cappie was a good passer, but with so much scoring responsibility, it's hard to also be a PG in the WNBA. Ditto Piph, who also isn't a speed guard.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 7:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.


I've never been crazy about Prince playing lead guard/point guard. The argument for it was obvious: having Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time. But the argument doesn't hold unless Prince does a good job at point guard. It may simply be that this team is better without Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time--even when that means that one of the Liberty's best three scorers won't be on the floor.


I went back and forth on it a lot in the off season. I thought it could work in certain situations but I also worried about pace. However, I never thought they'd have this much trouble scoring. Of course, I doubt the game plan going into the season was for Piph to play 30+ minutes of PG. That will wear you down.

At this point, this season, they have to do whatever helps them win. Long term, I don't think alternating your two best perimeter scorers is desirable. Needless to say it should be an interesting off season.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 8:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Let's review stuff we wouldn't have expected before the year started:

-Kiah is a non-entity on D
-Sugar and Piph combining for 35% shooting
-Boyd's Achilles tear
-Bec shooting less than 30%
-Zahui scoring 3 ppg WORSE than last year's 5 per game

If you look at the above list, for Zahui and Bec we'd have been happy to just get last year's numbers. Kiah not being a D presence is a major surprise. Piph was WNBA player of the week a month ago. Now she's on pace to have a career-worst shooting season. If you told me before the season started that ALL the above would happen I'd have told you that you were nuts. And I've said we'd be even worse than 8-9. Ugh.


I'd add in the statistically night and day without Piph and Vaughn...and I don't find it as flukey as most people are posting.

But I don't see this as a 2014 Pondexter situation either...It's that Piph cant run point at the same pace as we ran it without her...we were more up tempo in those 5 wins and it showed. We need a way to quicken our pace and movement.

And whatever the hell is wrong with Stokes...FIX IT


Good call.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 8:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Moving Piph off the point was very helpful, and Kia had a strong game in the middle. I think the bigger problem was in trying to hammer square pegs in round holes.


I've never been crazy about Prince playing lead guard/point guard. The argument for it was obvious: having Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time. But the argument doesn't hold unless Prince does a good job at point guard. It may simply be that this team is better without Prince and Rodgers on the floor at the same time--even when that means that one of the Liberty's best three scorers won't be on the floor.


I went back and forth on it a lot in the off season. I thought it could work in certain situations but I also worried about pace. However, I never thought they'd have this much trouble scoring. Of course, I doubt the game plan going into the season was for Piph to play 30+ minutes of PG. That will wear you down.

At this point, this season, they have to do whatever helps them win. Long term, I don't think alternating your two best perimeter scorers is desirable. Needless to say it should be an interesting off season.


I was only thinking about the current season. Beyond that, alternating your two best perimeter scorers surely is not desirable. Whether or not this team plays better in the second half of the season, it certainly looks like a significant roster overhaul is needed.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 8:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
For me, the nicest thing about the game is Kiah Stokes playing 20 minutes, getting 10 rebounds, and blocking three shots. Nothing against Kia Vaughn, who has played well lately. But I don't believe New York can have a successful season without Stokes playing a lot of minutes and giving the team strong rim protection and rebounding.

It's wonderful to see the team get a lift, but the challenges ahead are much more formidable than Washington without Delle Donne and Hill.


Watching the game a second time. The Stokes I see today is the 2015-2016 version. Quick feet, quick hops, timing of jump, running the floor. I see no difference in athleticism, speed or stamina. Let's see what the future brings. Jonquel Jones gave Stokes fits in the first two games vs. CT. If Kiah demonstrates this type of athleticism and hustle, I don't think Jones will be as brutal a matchup for Kiah.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I went back and forth on it a lot in the off season. I thought it could work in certain situations but I also worried about pace. However, I never thought they'd have this much trouble scoring. Of course, I doubt the game plan going into the season was for Piph to play 30+ minutes of PG. That will wear you down.

At this point, this season, they have to do whatever helps them win. Long term, I don't think alternating your two best perimeter scorers is desirable. Needless to say it should be an interesting off season.




I've also gone back and forth between practicing patience and ridicule.. Confused

Although I agree with most of the criticisms of the Prince/Rogers backcourt, at the same time, I believe that Prince could eventually develop into that lead guard role and Laimbeer has experience in making that happen before. As of now, I'm still in the 'patience' category because even though Prince has been here 3 years, she was injured one year and just came back after a month overseas.. Idea

I am reminded of how I often poked fun of Kristi Toliver for being shot-happy in LA, but she then transformed her game into a pass-first PG, and then I had nothing but great things to say about her. Her stats went down but her effectiveness went up and she led the team to a Championship.

As for Sugar, I'd like her to shoot a better percentage (much better), but at this point, I'll take it. My ideal lineup would be to move Zellous to SG and have Sugar as the Ginóbili-type starter coming off the bench, with an Angel McCoughtry-type brought in as the SF. This level of scoring would account for the fact that NY has 2 defensive centers who don't score. Exclamation

But because Angel isn't walking through that door, I'm fine with effectively running a 3-guard rotation with Zellous as the SF and just be focused on development, not winning a Title. Just like in the NBA, where everybody was just waiting for the CLE-GSW Finals, I'm just waiting for the MIN-LA Finals (again) because everybody else is in the 2nd tier.

And when it comes to development, I think Zellous has been doing well, Vaughn has exceeded my expectations, and Stokes met my expectations. (Of course, Stokes has been one of my favorite players since Day 1, so I've always had high expectations of her.) I may as well through Bria Hartley in there as well, as coming off of pregnancy, my expectations of her this year were quite low, and she has contributed well, especially during Prince's absence. I don't think my fantasy team could have gotten through June without her! Thanks again Bria Razz



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I haven't seen the game but looking at the minutes Hartley and L. Allen played 40 minutes combined and Rodgers and Prince played 40 minutes combine, does that mean that Rodgers and Prince only played the SG spot and weren't on the floor together at all? and that L. Allen and a combo of Harley/Zellous (Zellous and Hartley started and Zellous had more assists) played 40 minutes at the PG spot? Granted it was against an injury riddled Washington team, but if that is true, it seems to have worked, it has been a long time since NY scored 88 points against anyone. Does this look like the new system going forward?


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PostPosted: 07/16/17 10:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Admiral_Needa wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I went back and forth on it a lot in the off season. I thought it could work in certain situations but I also worried about pace. However, I never thought they'd have this much trouble scoring. Of course, I doubt the game plan going into the season was for Piph to play 30+ minutes of PG. That will wear you down.

At this point, this season, they have to do whatever helps them win. Long term, I don't think alternating your two best perimeter scorers is desirable. Needless to say it should be an interesting off season.




I've also gone back and forth between practicing patience and ridicule.. Confused

Although I agree with most of the criticisms of the Prince/Rogers backcourt, at the same time, I believe that Prince could eventually develop into that lead guard role and Laimbeer has experience in making that happen before. As of now, I'm still in the 'patience' category because even though Prince has been here 3 years, she was injured one year and just came back after a month overseas.. Idea

I am reminded of how I often poked fun of Kristi Toliver for being shot-happy in LA, but she then transformed her game into a pass-first PG, and then I had nothing but great things to say about her. Her stats went down but her effectiveness went up and she led the team to a Championship.

As for Sugar, I'd like her to shoot a better percentage (much better), but at this point, I'll take it. My ideal lineup would be to move Zellous to SG and have Sugar as the Ginóbili-type starter coming off the bench, with an Angel McCoughtry-type brought in as the SF. This level of scoring would account for the fact that NY has 2 defensive centers who don't score. Exclamation

But because Angel isn't walking through that door, I'm fine with effectively running a 3-guard rotation with Zellous as the SF and just be focused on development, not winning a Title. Just like in the NBA, where everybody was just waiting for the CLE-GSW Finals, I'm just waiting for the MIN-LA Finals (again) because everybody else is in the 2nd tier.

And when it comes to development, I think Zellous has been doing well, Vaughn has exceeded my expectations, and Stokes met my expectations. (Of course, Stokes has been one of my favorite players since Day 1, so I've always had high expectations of her.) I may as well through Bria Hartley in there as well, as coming off of pregnancy, my expectations of her this year were quite low, and she has contributed well, especially during Prince's absence. I don't think my fantasy team could have gotten through June without her! Thanks again Bria Razz


These are excellent talking points. You know, I think part of the reason this is such a point of discussion is because the PG position seems to be in a consistent state of flux for NY from 2013 forward, except for those periods where Wright wound up being the starting PG. Keeping in mind that Boyd was actually the starter on opening nights of both 2015 and 2016.

I also remember in 2013 and 2014, it was discussed that Cappie's limited training camp time was a factor in her not being made PG sooner. Piph only had a week of training camp then left for Russia for awhile. Not exactly the ideal PG grooming situation.

Then factor in a :24 clock in a league where players don't run and jump like in the NBA. Hence, it helps to have some offense created for you. It's why Bird and Whalen are historically phenomenal players who have scored only around 12 ppg. It's hard to set up others AND find your own scoring when it takes time and structure in order to score. That's why some of the score-first players struggle with it unless they look to score a lot less.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 10:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
I haven't seen the game but looking at the minutes Hartley and L. Allen played 40 minutes combined and Rodgers and Prince played 40 minutes combine, does that mean that Rodgers and Prince only played the SG spot and weren't on the floor together at all? and that L. Allen and a combo of Harley/Zellous (Zellous and Hartley started and Zellous had more assists) played 40 minutes at the PG spot? Granted it was against an injury riddled Washington team, but if that is true, it seems to have worked, it has been a long time since NY scored 88 points against anyone. Does this look like the new system going forward?


You would be correct. And it would seem this will be the system quite a bit though it will be interesting to see what happens late in a close game down the stretch.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 10:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
I haven't seen the game but looking at the minutes Hartley and L. Allen played 40 minutes combined and Rodgers and Prince played 40 minutes combine, does that mean that Rodgers and Prince only played the SG spot and weren't on the floor together at all? and that L. Allen and a combo of Harley/Zellous (Zellous and Hartley started and Zellous had more assists) played 40 minutes at the PG spot? Granted it was against an injury riddled Washington team, but if that is true, it seems to have worked, it has been a long time since NY scored 88 points against anyone. Does this look like the new system going forward?


You would be correct. And it would seem this will be the system quite a bit though it will be interesting to see what happens late in a close game down the stretch.


I don't think we should conclude much based on one game. It worked extremely well today. Let's see what happens against Connecticut and then on the five-game road trip. My guess: Laimbeer will give this approach at least a few games no matter what, because his previous offensive approach clearly was NOT working.



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 11:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I beg your pardon for erroneously thinking a game thread is for fans of both teams. Clearly any conversation about a game involving New York will only involve New York players. Excuse me for interrupting. Carry on. Enjoy your obliteration of an already decimated team.

Please remember, as a Mystics fan, I DO completely understand any success of my team, in the midst of utter bleakness, year after year.

What I don't understand is why there are zero Mystics fans here, or on most game threads. Where are you Mystics fans?



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PostPosted: 07/16/17 11:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sorry, deleted my comment.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

New York fans

Glass half-full: Hartley can juice the pace, and the attack. Rodgers gets hit upside the head by not starting and wakes up. Stokes discovers whatever it was that was missing. Libs shift gears and roll on ...

Glass half-empty: Libs beat up on team that suddenly had to adjust to losing two starters -- and not even a couple days to prepare -- and one of those starters is one of the best two or three players in the league, if not the world. Better win big ...



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 11:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's probably somewhere in between. CT likes a fast pace and they've beaten us twice with Hartley in the starting lineup. However, we've had our two best rebounding games of the season back to back, as well as our best ball movement game of the season. So I think there's recognition of the standard we need to meet in order to win consistently and maybe go on a run.

What I'm concerned about is how we respond through adversity, since at some point during the game we are bound to face some. The key to beating CT in my opinion is containing Alyssa Thomas, and that's a hard thing to do. Not only can she score, but her penetrations lead to kick outs for open looks as well as offensive rebounding opportunities once the defense gets scrambling. And at the 4 spot, Tina has done a great job on D lately, and few defend smarter. But the matchup is such a difficult one. Good to see Nayo play some solid minutes because we may need her. Couple this with the fact that we haven't responded too well to adversity of late, and we will see. This is the kind of game I really think we miss Boyd. CT likes to run, but once you force them into their bench that can change a little. Running at them with multiple players would make a difference.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm late to the party, but let me respond to some earlier comments. I don't think NY fans are lacking in perspective. All people have to do is look at NYL_WNBA_FAN's post early in this thread:

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Talk about dreading a game. I'm seriously not even looking forward to it. Lose to D.C. without EDD and Hill, then who can we even beat? Win the game, well, we're supposed to win it anyway. The sick thing is if we win today and win Wednesday we are still in position to control our destiny as far as a top 4 seed. While there's no indication that will happen, sooner or later people who are capable of hitting shots will actually start hitting them. Right? 🤷🏼‍♂️


No one here is ignoring the fact that EDD and Hill are out. You don't see any Liberty fans mentioning that the Mystics were held to 55 points. We know it's meaningless. Nor are we all that excited about the win. The excitement is about the offense showing a bit of life after looking moribund for most of the last 5 games. In a league that averages around 82 ppg, the Liberty hadn't cracked 80 once and were averaging 68. Laimbeer started the season saying that he wanted to play with pace and use his depth. Instead, the team has been playing almost exclusively half-court basketball, and in the prior game only 1 bench player cracked double-digits in minutes. Add to that a team-wide shooting slump, and you have a situation where Tina has to provide a quarter to a third of the points every game.

What we saw yesterday was New York consciously trying to push the ball on almost every possession. The Liberty not only scored 85 points, but they did it with Tina contributing only 6. That means other people had to step up. Last season, New York was 4th in the league in bench scoring with over 28 ppg. Entering yesterday's game, they were last at around 14 ppg. So, getting 41 points off the bench yesterday was really notable. We're hoping it's a sign of things to come. This had nothing to do with Washington or winning. I didn't see this much excitement after the win over Seattle. And while EDD and Hill being out probably had some effect on the Mystics' defense, it's not like Meesseman at PF and TRP at SF was some huge adjustment -- it's where they've spent most of their WNBA careers. Washington did end up with a tiny starting backcourt of Latta and Toliver, but I didn't see the Liberty try to take advantage. No one was posting them up or deliberately shooting over them. So, as I said before, the comments by Liberty fans have nothing to do with Washington. It's all about troubling macro trends that we needed to reverse. Yesterday we saw some glimmer of hope. No one is assuming our problems are solved. Prince continues to struggle with her shot (1-6). Zellous is still passing up open perimeter shots. Zahui B. was basically a charity case at the end of the game with her teammates constantly feeding her in a desperate attempt to get her points. We see all that, but we're choosing to be hopeful for the moment.

As for this thread being dominated by Liberty fans, I don't know what people expect. Are we supposed to step up and fill the void for missing Mystic supporters? Fans are going to talk primarily about their own team, especially if things have been going badly and you finally see some positive signs. The decline in support for Washington is an issue between their fans and Mystics management. I don't see how NY fans are the bad guys here.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:

As for this thread being dominated by Liberty fans, I don't know what people expect. Are we supposed to step up and fill the void for missing Mystic supporters? Fans are going to talk primarily about their own team, especially if things have been going badly and you finally see some positive signs. The decline in support for Washington is an issue between their fans and Mystics management. I don't see how NY fans are the bad guys here.


Maybe the other Mystics fans felt the way I did about not being able to watch the game. As I said mid-game:

ArtBest23 wrote:
So I get home and flip on the TV hoping to catch the second half of this game, and lo and behold, even though the game is in New York, Teddy boy has the game blacked out on the NBA Network in the DC area. I didn't waste my time even bothering to check the blackout-laden League pass.

Teddy doesn't give a shit about building a Mystics fanbase; all he cares about is trying to force a handful more subscribers to his stupid proprietary streaming network.

Well Ted, I wouldn't pay 10 cents per year for your network even if it was the only way I could watch NCIS, F1 racing, Wheeler Dealers, Mystery, and New Japan Wrestling.

And frankly, your attitude makes it less and less likely I'll spend any more money on tickets to watch your Mystics. Or your perrenial loser mismanaged Wizards either for that matter.

Maybe the WNBA should worry about how to stop driving fans away before they worry about how to add new fans and more franchises.

I've got the end of the Nationals game on now. Probably watch the golf tournament when the baseball game ends. Screw you Ted.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 12:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Art, is this true of all Mystics home games not on ESPN? Meaning none are televised just on the cable package? Whether it's all or sone games that's pretty low to require a subscription to watch games when the building doesn't even draw. The Libs televise all their home games.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I'm late to the party, but let me respond to some earlier comments. I don't think NY fans are lacking in perspective. All people have to do is look at NYL_WNBA_FAN's post early in this thread:

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Talk about dreading a game. I'm seriously not even looking forward to it. Lose to D.C. without EDD and Hill, then who can we even beat? Win the game, well, we're supposed to win it anyway. The sick thing is if we win today and win Wednesday we are still in position to control our destiny as far as a top 4 seed. While there's no indication that will happen, sooner or later people who are capable of hitting shots will actually start hitting them. Right? 🤷🏼‍♂️


No one here is ignoring the fact that EDD and Hill are out. You don't see any Liberty fans mentioning that the Mystics were held to 55 points. We know it's meaningless. Nor are we all that excited about the win. The excitement is about the offense showing a bit of life after looking moribund for most of the last 5 games. In a league that averages around 82 ppg, the Liberty hadn't cracked 80 once and were averaging 68. Laimbeer started the season saying that he wanted to play with pace and use his depth. Instead, the team has been playing almost exclusively half-court basketball, and in the prior game only 1 bench player cracked double-digits in minutes. Add to that a team-wide shooting slump, and you have a situation where Tina has to provide a quarter to a third of the points every game.

What we saw yesterday was New York consciously trying to push the ball on almost every possession. The Liberty not only scored 85 points, but they did it with Tina contributing only 6. That means other people had to step up. Last season, New York was 4th in the league in bench scoring with over 28 ppg. Entering yesterday's game, they were last at around 14 ppg. So, getting 41 points off the bench yesterday was really notable. We're hoping it's a sign of things to come. This had nothing to do with Washington or winning. I didn't see this much excitement after the win over Seattle. And while EDD and Hill being out probably had some effect on the Mystics' defense, it's not like Meesseman at PF and TRP at SF was some huge adjustment -- it's where they've spent most of their WNBA careers. Washington did end up with a tiny starting backcourt of Latta and Toliver, but I didn't see the Liberty try to take advantage. No one was posting them up or deliberately shooting over them. So, as I said before, the comments by Liberty fans have nothing to do with Washington. It's all about troubling macro trends that we needed to reverse. Yesterday we saw some glimmer of hope. No one is assuming our problems are solved. Prince continues to struggle with her shot (1-6). Zellous is still passing up open perimeter shots. Zahui B. was basically a charity case at the end of the game with her teammates constantly feeding her in a desperate attempt to get her points. We see all that, but we're choosing to be hopeful for the moment.

As for this thread being dominated by Liberty fans, I don't know what people expect. Are we supposed to step up and fill the void for missing Mystic supporters? Fans are going to talk primarily about their own team, especially if things have been going badly and you finally see some positive signs. The decline in support for Washington is an issue between their fans and Mystics management. I don't see how NY fans are the bad guys here.


Well put. And to add, knowing we aren't going to force most teams to only 30% or so from the field means fewer transition opportunities against other teams. One of the reasons we were able to run is because we forced so many one and done chances.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i feel your pain here in dallas , we get blacked out it seems every home game. Doesnt make any sense . You have to upgrade your cable services to recieve FSSW+plus i dont understand at all



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Art, is this true of all Mystics home games not on ESPN? Meaning none are televised just on the cable package? Whether it's all or sone games that's pretty low to require a subscription to watch games when the building doesn't even draw. The Libs televise all their home games.


I don't like it but I understand not televising home games to try to get people to attend the game. Pro sports have been doing that like forever.

But to black out away games? What the hell is the point of that?

No, Ted, I'm not signing up for your lame Monumental network.

Note that they don't pull this crap for Wizards or Caps games, or even for his two local arena football teams. Just for the Mystics. Shame on the WNBA for allowing games being televised nationally on the NBA Network to be blacked out. ESPECIALLY road games. Hey Borders, don't whine to me about lack of fan interest and attendance when you allow your owners to pull this shit. You want to minimize interest? You're succeeding.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Art, is this true of all Mystics home games not on ESPN? Meaning none are televised just on the cable package? Whether it's all or sone games that's pretty low to require a subscription to watch games when the building doesn't even draw. The Libs televise all their home games.


I don't like it but I understand not televising home games to try to get people to attend the game. Pro sports have been doing that like forever.

But to black out away games? What the hell is the point of that?

No, Ted, I'm not signing up for your lame Monumental network.

Note that they don't pull this crap for Wizards or Caps games, or even for his two local arena football teams. Just for the Mystics. Shame on the WNBA for allowing games being televised nationally on the NBA Network to be blacked out. ESPECIALLY road games. Hey Borders, don't whine to me about lack of fan interest and attendance when you allow your owners to pull this shit. You want to minimize interest? You're succeeding.


So bizarre. I believe it's a bad move to black out home games. Road games? What possible logic can there be in blocking out a road game? Ridiculous and rightly infuriating for any fans experiencing this.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:

So bizarre. I believe it's a bad move to black out home games. Road games? What possible logic can there be in blocking out a road game? Ridiculous and rightly infuriating for any fans experiencing this.


Road games are not blacked out, but in cases where there is a local (or national) TV broadcast, not shown on Live Access to get people to watch the TV telecast. Not a ridiculous practice in my opinion.




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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
i feel your pain here in dallas , we get blacked out it seems every home game. Doesnt make any sense . You have to upgrade your cable services to recieve FSSW+plus i dont understand at all


I already pay for all the regional networks on DirecTV, but they don't seem to show Mystics games on the local Comcast Sports networks any more. They used to, but that appears to have stopped with the launch of Ted's streaming service.

I have no interest in going to some tiny gym in Anacostia to see them in person, and he blocks them from TV, so the heck with him. If Leonsis doesn't want me as a fan, well I guess he won't have me as a fan. Obviously he doesn't care. Frankly I don't either. I have no shortage of other sports available to watch if he chooses to make the Mystics unavailable.

I'll watch the WNBA teams with former Notre Dame players. Leonsis's local team can pound sand for all I care




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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:

So bizarre. I believe it's a bad move to black out home games. Road games? What possible logic can there be in blocking out a road game? Ridiculous and rightly infuriating for any fans experiencing this.


Home games are blacked out to get people to buy tickets. Road games are not blacked out, but in some cases not shown on Live Access to get people to watch the local (or national in the case of ESPN) telecast of the game.


Did you read my posts? Contrary to your assertion, ROAD Mystics games are blacked out on the NBA Network on TV. No one has been talking about Live Access. That's another (ridiculous) issue but not the one being discussed.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:

So bizarre. I believe it's a bad move to black out home games. Road games? What possible logic can there be in blocking out a road game? Ridiculous and rightly infuriating for any fans experiencing this.


Home games are blacked out to get people to buy tickets. Road games are not blacked out, but in some cases not shown on Live Access to get people to watch the local (or national in the case of ESPN) telecast of the game.


Did you read my posts? Contrary to your assertion, ROAD Mystics games are blacked out on the NBA Network on TV. No one has been talking about Live Access. That's another (ridiculous) issue but not the one being discussed.


It's the same thing, whether Live Access (which shows all the non-ESPN games) or NBA-TV (which shows some minority of the non-ESPN games). A secondary tier broadcast that would take viewers away from the local broadcaster that is trying to make money showing the games.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Live Access is called League Pass now, and League Pass will block live transmission of any game broadcasted by ABC, ESPN(2) OR the local regional broadcaster, whether it's a home game or not. But, it is available for immediate archive at the game's ending.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 3:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:

So bizarre. I believe it's a bad move to black out home games. Road games? What possible logic can there be in blocking out a road game? Ridiculous and rightly infuriating for any fans experiencing this.


Home games are blacked out to get people to buy tickets. Road games are not blacked out, but in some cases not shown on Live Access to get people to watch the local (or national in the case of ESPN) telecast of the game.


Did you read my posts? Contrary to your assertion, ROAD Mystics games are blacked out on the NBA Network on TV. No one has been talking about Live Access. That's another (ridiculous) issue but not the one being discussed.


It's the same thing, whether Live Access (which shows all the non-ESPN games) or NBA-TV (which shows some minority of the non-ESPN games). A secondary tier broadcast that would take viewers away from the local broadcaster that is trying to make money showing the games.


It's not remotely the same thing. I can't imagine what makes you think it is. A national NBATV telecast is equivalent to an ESPN telecast, not to a league pass game.

Besides there is no "local broadcaster" showing the game unless you're counting Leonsis's streaming service.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 4:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:

It's not remotely the same thing. I can't imagine what makes you think it is. A national NBATV telecast is equivalent to an ESPN telecast, not to a league pass game.


From a local broadcasters standpoint, all three [ESPN, NBA-TV, League Pass] are the same. They can take viewers away from their broadcast by providing an alternative means to watch. The WNBA team and the local broadcaster can negotiate a deal that allows viewership in alternative ways, but the WNBA team will have to charge the TV station less for the less valuable rights. In the case of ESPN, I believe their contract would not allow a local broadcast, since ESPN doesn't want an alternative way to watch the game they are broadcasting, just as the local station doesn't want it.

Quote:

Besides there is no "local broadcaster" showing the game unless you're counting Leonsis's streaming service.


Yes, in DC I'm counting that. While streaming, it's management still has the goal of maximizing viewership like a local station, and to do that they have to dis-allow alternative broadcasts. But since they have the same owner, that owner could decide to allow local TV broadcasts and get a compensating benefit from the team selling the broadcast rights and from a broadcast alternative providing more fan interest. NBA-TV may not involve broadcast rights, but could potentially help boost fan interest to compensate for a loss of viewers on the streaming service.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 4:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, I don't agree with your analysis or equivalents except on the most theoretical level. In the real world they're not remotely similar.

And even if they were equivalent, the WNBA should reject the notion of blackouts for national NBA TV broadcasts, just as they do for ESPN, which is what I said in my very first post on the subject.

They also should have set a minimum arena size and told Leonsis he couldn't sell out WNBA fans to get government subsidies for his NBA practice facility too.

I have no sympathy for WNBA owners if they let some owners drive away fans like what they are doing multiple ways in Washington.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 6:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We took two buses of Mystics fans up to MSG yesterday. I think we were too distracted by having more food options than hotdogs, pizza, and chicken finders, to post to the board during the game.
It was painful to watch the defeat, but at least we could watch it, unlike when we are blacked out by Monumental Sports.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It sounds like Mystics fans are getting screwed. But can someone explain what the means is as a local viewer to view a Mystics road game? Do you have to subscribe to a higher cable package and/or streaming service? Just for clarification purposes because the lack of logic is so confusing I'm looking for further explanation.

In NY all the games are on MSG. Our good fortune doesn't stop people from complaining incessantly on FB if a game is on ESPN 3 instead of TV. They don't know how good they have it.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 6:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Art, is this true of all Mystics home games not on ESPN? Meaning none are televised just on the cable package? Whether it's all or sone games that's pretty low to require a subscription to watch games when the building doesn't even draw. The Libs televise all their home games.


I don't like it but I understand not televising home games to try to get people to attend the game. Pro sports have been doing that like forever.

But to black out away games? What the hell is the point of that?

No, Ted, I'm not signing up for your lame Monumental network.

Note that they don't pull this crap for Wizards or Caps games, or even for his two local arena football teams. Just for the Mystics. Shame on the WNBA for allowing games being televised nationally on the NBA Network to be blacked out. ESPECIALLY road games. Hey Borders, don't whine to me about lack of fan interest and attendance when you allow your owners to pull this shit. You want to minimize interest? You're succeeding.


So if I'm understanding correctly, games should not be blacked out, IMO based on a local fan's unwillingness to pony up for a local service outside of a basic cable package. And certainly the Mystics of all organizations have not earned the right to pull this.



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PostPosted: 07/17/17 7:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

vallee wrote:
We took two buses of Mystics fans up to MSG yesterday. I think we were too distracted by having more food options than hotdogs, pizza, and chicken finders, to post to the board during the game.
It was painful to watch the defeat, but at least we could watch it, unlike when we are blacked out by Monumental Sports.


When intros were done, I could hear you guys cheering your players. Looked up to see where it was coming from and noticed your red behind their bench. Hope you enjoyed the MSG experience.


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PostPosted: 07/17/17 8:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Art, is this true of all Mystics home games not on ESPN? Meaning none are televised just on the cable package? Whether it's all or sone games that's pretty low to require a subscription to watch games when the building doesn't even draw. The Libs televise all their home games.


I don't like it but I understand not televising home games to try to get people to attend the game. Pro sports have been doing that like forever.

But to black out away games? What the hell is the point of that?

No, Ted, I'm not signing up for your lame Monumental network.

Note that they don't pull this crap for Wizards or Caps games, or even for his two local arena football teams. Just for the Mystics. Shame on the WNBA for allowing games being televised nationally on the NBA Network to be blacked out. ESPECIALLY road games. Hey Borders, don't whine to me about lack of fan interest and attendance when you allow your owners to pull this shit. You want to minimize interest? You're succeeding.


So if I'm understanding correctly, games should not be blacked out, IMO based on a local fan's unwillingness to pony up for a local service outside of a basic cable package. And certainly the Mystics of all organizations have not earned the right to pull this.


We're not talking "basic cable" here. I pay for nearly every premium service on DirecTV including all the regional sports networks. If it was on any Satellite or cable network, I'd get it. And yeah, I also have a Roku and a Fire Stick and a dedicated HTPC. I'd be happy to have them on ESPN3. But yeah, I do object to having to also pay for some half assed streaming service in addition to my $200+/month satellite bill because some asshole won't allow the team to be on cable or satellite TV at any tier.

Really, I'm not paying for lousy productions of Mystics and arena football games on Leonsis Streaming TV. He can kiss my ass.

Notably Caps games are virtually all on TV, Wizards games are virtually all on TV, even many of his Washington and Baltimore Arena Football games are on TV. As with his stupid mini-arena, it's only Mystics fans who get screwed again. Tell me how that helps the Mystics or the WNBA to block the Mystics from ever being on TV in the Mystics home region. How many people do you think are paying for Monumental streaming service in order to see the Mystics? A dozen? Way to build a fanbase.

Well, this way he won't have to worry about fitting everyone into the Mystics new 4000 seat closet. There will probably be plenty of empty seats available. The fanbase continues to shrink.

Guess I'll watch baseball during the summer. The Nats have terrific attendance and all their games are on TV. And I'll watch the Storm, Stars, Fever and Liberty on TV and League Pass.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 07/17/17 8:57 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: 07/17/17 8:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

vallee wrote:
We took two buses of Mystics fans up to MSG yesterday. I think we were too distracted by having more food options than hotdogs, pizza, and chicken finders, to post to the board during the game.
It was painful to watch the defeat, but at least we could watch it, unlike when we are blacked out by Monumental Sports.


Saw all y'all over at your end of the court. Y'all travel well and mostly behave. Have to salute that. (Also, I still get a kick out of the "If I'm Lost, Please Return Me to Verizon Center" shirts.)



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 12:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

art, look for a free VPN service. Then it looks like you're in Timbuctu or wherever you want to be and voila, you won't be blacked out.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 5:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Art, is this true of all Mystics home games not on ESPN? Meaning none are televised just on the cable package? Whether it's all or sone games that's pretty low to require a subscription to watch games when the building doesn't even draw. The Libs televise all their home games.


I don't like it but I understand not televising home games to try to get people to attend the game. Pro sports have been doing that like forever.

But to black out away games? What the hell is the point of that?

No, Ted, I'm not signing up for your lame Monumental network.

Note that they don't pull this crap for Wizards or Caps games, or even for his two local arena football teams. Just for the Mystics. Shame on the WNBA for allowing games being televised nationally on the NBA Network to be blacked out. ESPECIALLY road games. Hey Borders, don't whine to me about lack of fan interest and attendance when you allow your owners to pull this shit. You want to minimize interest? You're succeeding.


So if I'm understanding correctly, games should not be blacked out, IMO based on a local fan's unwillingness to pony up for a local service outside of a basic cable package. And certainly the Mystics of all organizations have not earned the right to pull this.


We're not talking "basic cable" here. I pay for nearly every premium service on DirecTV including all the regional sports networks. If it was on any Satellite or cable network, I'd get it. And yeah, I also have a Roku and a Fire Stick and a dedicated HTPC. I'd be happy to have them on ESPN3. But yeah, I do object to having to also pay for some half assed streaming service in addition to my $200+/month satellite bill because some asshole won't allow the team to be on cable or satellite TV at any tier.

Really, I'm not paying for lousy productions of Mystics and arena football games on Leonsis Streaming TV. He can kiss my ass.

Notably Caps games are virtually all on TV, Wizards games are virtually all on TV, even many of his Washington and Baltimore Arena Football games are on TV. As with his stupid mini-arena, it's only Mystics fans who get screwed again. Tell me how that helps the Mystics or the WNBA to block the Mystics from ever being on TV in the Mystics home region. How many people do you think are paying for Monumental streaming service in order to see the Mystics? A dozen? Way to build a fanbase.

Well, this way he won't have to worry about fitting everyone into the Mystics new 4000 seat closet. There will probably be plenty of empty seats available. The fanbase continues to shrink.

Guess I'll watch baseball during the summer. The Nats have terrific attendance and all their games are on TV. And I'll watch the Storm, Stars, Fever and Liberty on TV and League Pass.


I agree with you. Really shortsighted way of doing business. Especially now that you have Delle Donne. Every effort should be made to market her and what moving forward will likely be an entertaining team.



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 5:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
I haven't seen the game but looking at the minutes Hartley and L. Allen played 40 minutes combined and Rodgers and Prince played 40 minutes combine, does that mean that Rodgers and Prince only played the SG spot and weren't on the floor together at all? and that L. Allen and a combo of Harley/Zellous (Zellous and Hartley started and Zellous had more assists) played 40 minutes at the PG spot? Granted it was against an injury riddled Washington team, but if that is true, it seems to have worked, it has been a long time since NY scored 88 points against anyone. Does this look like the new system going forward?


You would be correct. And it would seem this will be the system quite a bit though it will be interesting to see what happens late in a close game down the stretch.


that's why I feel they may add a PG to roll 3 deep there...of course you need to cut someone to add someone...and I'd only do it for someone established...Zahui is likely the player to go...shes stuck behind Tina and Raincock has shown she can fill those 5 rest minutes for Charles as well as anyone can ask.

I keep getting 2nd rounder for Colson stuck in my head...any other backup PGs you'd think would be attainable without going above zahui or our 2nd rounder?

Wet Pipe Dream would be bringing back FLB which is perfect for the speed lineup and adds shooting depth outside...but given how bill mocked her when she was here last that aint never happening ever.

Remember you can NOT activitate Shoni off the full season suspended list (not like i'd wanna do that anyway...seen that movie...Haaattteed Ittt)



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 5:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LFO wrote:
vallee wrote:
We took two buses of Mystics fans up to MSG yesterday. I think we were too distracted by having more food options than hotdogs, pizza, and chicken finders, to post to the board during the game.
It was painful to watch the defeat, but at least we could watch it, unlike when we are blacked out by Monumental Sports.


When intros were done, I could hear you guys cheering your players. Looked up to see where it was coming from and noticed your red behind their bench. Hope you enjoyed the MSG experience.


Umm crap...if bill could hear them over us that means we need to do a better job...then again that 1st quarter helped...NYC fans are loud but you do need to give em something to cheer for...we know basketball...cant fake it...do well we'll get behind you...do less well we'll be paitent and quiet and waiting (and praying) for things to pick up...show up not giving a damn, we'll explain that it's not acceptable in no uncertain terms Wink (Luckly that hasn't happened since 2014 Smile )



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 10:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:


I agree with you. Really shortsighted way of doing business. Especially now that you have Delle Donne. Every effort should be made to market her and what moving forward will likely be an entertaining team.


Don't let that fool you, by the way. It's not like Leonsis went out and spent a lot of money to sign Della Donne in a deliberate attempt to improve and market his product. His team improved because two players who wanted to play closer to home came to his team. He didn't go get them. They came to him.

The ridiculous salary limits in the WNBA destroy any real competition for players. Heck, given her age, he probably saved money by signing Della Donne. Fans lucked out. Leonsis had nothing to do with it.


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PostPosted: 07/18/17 12:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:


I agree with you. Really shortsighted way of doing business. Especially now that you have Delle Donne. Every effort should be made to market her and what moving forward will likely be an entertaining team.


Don't let that fool you, by the way. It's not like Leonsis went out and spent a lot of money to sign Della Donne in a deliberate attempt to improve and market his product. His team improved because two players who wanted to play closer to home came to his team. He didn't go get them. They came to him.

The ridiculous salary limits in the WNBA destroy any real competition for players. Heck, given her age, he probably saved money by signing Della Donne. Fans lucked out. Leonsis had nothing to do with it.


I know Leonsis had nothing to do with it. Just saying I'd think they'd want to take advantage of an opportunity that fell into their lap. It's a head-scratcher.



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 12:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Happycappie25 wrote:
LFO wrote:
vallee wrote:
We took two buses of Mystics fans up to MSG yesterday. I think we were too distracted by having more food options than hotdogs, pizza, and chicken finders, to post to the board during the game.
It was painful to watch the defeat, but at least we could watch it, unlike when we are blacked out by Monumental Sports.


When intros were done, I could hear you guys cheering your players. Looked up to see where it was coming from and noticed your red behind their bench. Hope you enjoyed the MSG experience.


Umm crap...if bill could hear them over us that means we need to do a better job...then again that 1st quarter helped...NYC fans are loud but you do need to give em something to cheer for...we know basketball...cant fake it...do well we'll get behind you...do less well we'll be paitent and quiet and waiting (and praying) for things to pick up...show up not giving a damn, we'll explain that it's not acceptable in no uncertain terms Wink (Luckly that hasn't happened since 2014 Smile )


I know of two guys who come close to out-cheering a crowd when we go to DC and CT. 😉



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Happycappie25 wrote:
LFO wrote:
vallee wrote:
We took two buses of Mystics fans up to MSG yesterday. I think we were too distracted by having more food options than hotdogs, pizza, and chicken finders, to post to the board during the game.
It was painful to watch the defeat, but at least we could watch it, unlike when we are blacked out by Monumental Sports.


When intros were done, I could hear you guys cheering your players. Looked up to see where it was coming from and noticed your red behind their bench. Hope you enjoyed the MSG experience.


Umm crap...if bill could hear them over us that means we need to do a better job...then again that 1st quarter helped...NYC fans are loud but you do need to give em something to cheer for...we know basketball...cant fake it...do well we'll get behind you...do less well we'll be paitent and quiet and waiting (and praying) for things to pick up...show up not giving a damn, we'll explain that it's not acceptable in no uncertain terms Wink (Luckly that hasn't happened since 2014 Smile )


I know of two guys who come close to out-cheering a crowd when we go to DC and CT. 😉


One guy one woman thank you very much Smile



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PostPosted: 07/18/17 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Very Happy Still going back and forth on whether or not to go up to CT this year. Since I tend to believe the Libs will be playing well by then, I'll probably make the trip. Is the bus still in the same location or did they change it again?



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