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Who should win MVP? |
Tina Charles |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
Elena Delle Donne |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
Sylvia Fowles |
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44% |
[ 23 ] |
Brittney Griner |
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36% |
[ 19 ] |
Tiffany Hayes |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
Nneka Ogwumike |
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3% |
[ 2 ] |
someone else |
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11% |
[ 6 ] |
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Total Votes : 52 |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67124 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 07/10/17 6:47 am ::: MVP |
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Monday Poll time!
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22478 Location: NJ
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Ay Mate
Joined: 12 Nov 2016 Posts: 1280
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5424 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 07/10/17 10:33 am ::: |
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My vote has not changed. The best player on the best team.
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adamj95
Joined: 09 May 2014 Posts: 2304 Location: East Grand Forks, MN
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Posted: 07/10/17 11:13 am ::: |
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Fowles has dominated Griner head to head the past few seasons. Fowles is the front runner and for a good reason.
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012 Posts: 4241 Location: Minnesota
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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adamj95
Joined: 09 May 2014 Posts: 2304 Location: East Grand Forks, MN
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24408 Location: London
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Posted: 07/10/17 11:33 am ::: |
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Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012 Posts: 4241 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 07/10/17 11:46 am ::: |
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"Most Valuable Player" is closer to "Most Outstanding Player" to me than "Most Irreplaceable Player to Their Team Due to the Player's Team's Lack of Depth and/or Additional Star Power".
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 19831
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Posted: 07/10/17 12:14 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
And I would add that Phoenix is significantly better than most expected, and the sole reason for that is Griner playing the way she's capable of.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22478 Location: NJ
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Posted: 07/10/17 12:20 pm ::: |
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Phoenix has surprised me this season. Talbot as their starting SF; Cannon, George, Turner, etc. on their bench. Thought they'd be tanking this season instead.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 07/10/17 12:28 pm ::: |
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mercfan3 wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
And I would add that Phoenix is significantly better than most expected, and the sole reason for that is Griner playing the way she's capable of. |
I endorse this message _________x
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 07/10/17 1:09 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
But even with that argument of "value", I would give it to Fowles. Maya has been playing very poorly this year and the other stars have to play limited time due to age. Think about what Minny's D would look like with Fowles.
Without Fowles would the Lynx be a lottery team? No. But would they be in comfortable position to hold one of the all important top two seeds? With Maya playing as she has? I doubt it. That is major "value" Fowles is providing.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 07/10/17 1:11 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
But even with that argument of "value", I would give it to Fowles. Maya has been playing very poorly this year and the other stars have to play limited time due to age. Think about what Minny's D would look like with Fowles.
Without Fowles would the Lynx be a lottery team? No. But would they be in comfortable position to hold one of the all important top two seeds? With Maya playing as she has? I doubt it. That is major "value" Fowles is providing. |
PHX without BG vs Minny Without Big Syl ....The Answer is obvious
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24408 Location: London
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Posted: 07/10/17 1:44 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
But even with that argument of "value", I would give it to Fowles. Maya has been playing very poorly this year and the other stars have to play limited time due to age. Think about what Minny's D would look like with Fowles.
Without Fowles would the Lynx be a lottery team? No. But would they be in comfortable position to hold one of the all important top two seeds? With Maya playing as she has? I doubt it. That is major "value" Fowles is providing. |
But how much of Maya's crappy play is because of the changes made to the offense due to the presence of Fowles? They don't run stuff for her and Augustus in quite the same way that they used to, because so many of the sets are designed to feed Fowles down low. If Fowles wasn't there, I think she might well be scoring better, because a lower proportion of her attempts would be those quick-fire jacked-up things she's been repeatedly chucking up this year.
And I know it's been a couple of years, and everyone's a little older, but this team could defend like a top-end squad even before Fowles arrived. If they were starting Howard/Brunson or Brunson/Mediocre Center in the paint, I think they'd probably still be annoyingly good.
I'm not saying it's anyone other than Fowles, or that I wouldn't vote for her - I'm just saying that as long as they call the award 'Most Valuable', there's a case to be made for an alternative like Griner. |
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 3629
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Posted: 07/10/17 1:45 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
mercfan3 wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
And I would add that Phoenix is significantly better than most expected, and the sole reason for that is Griner playing the way she's capable of. |
I endorse this message _________x |
And I second it. Everyone is saying Fowles so you know she will most likely get it but BG is #1 in points so without her points the Merc wouldn't be #3 in the standings.
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SCook
Joined: 09 Oct 2013 Posts: 3254 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: 07/10/17 3:27 pm ::: |
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bballgrl wrote: |
WNBA 09 wrote: |
mercfan3 wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
And I would add that Phoenix is significantly better than most expected, and the sole reason for that is Griner playing the way she's capable of. |
I endorse this message _________x |
And I second it. Everyone is saying Fowles so you know she will most likely get it but BG is #1 in points so without her points the Merc wouldn't be #3 in the standings. |
Not even just points. She has now found a way to be an offensive threat and still keep her defensive presence as well. Phoenix looks completely different both offensive and defensively when she's not on the floor.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16467 Location: Holland
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Posted: 07/10/17 3:48 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
Griner often getting into dumbass foul trouble (and her complete inability to set a legal screen) is one of the marks against her, though. And she was in foul trouble in that game against Minnesota partly due to her inability to deal with Fowles.
I think there is a case to be made for Griner over Fowles, but it largely comes down to that ever-malleable word 'value'. We've seen how good that Minnesota team can be without centering around Fowles, and if they had someone average like Krystal Thomas or a vaguely healthy Aneika Henry-Morello at center, they'd still win 20+ games. They'd probably do it perfectly well even with the current squad minus Fowles. On the other hand, the current Phoenix squad would be utterly screwed without Griner. The defense would collapse, and their sole offensive option would be Taurasi jacking threes from 30ft. They'd probably be tanking for a draft pick if Griner wasn't there, and it wouldn't even require much in the way of active tanking. |
But even with that argument of "value", I would give it to Fowles. Maya has been playing very poorly this year and the other stars have to play limited time due to age. Think about what Minny's D would look like with Fowles.
Without Fowles would the Lynx be a lottery team? No. But would they be in comfortable position to hold one of the all important top two seeds? With Maya playing as she has? I doubt it. That is major "value" Fowles is providing. |
But how much of Maya's crappy play is because of the changes made to the offense due to the presence of Fowles? They don't run stuff for her and Augustus in quite the same way that they used to, because so many of the sets are designed to feed Fowles down low. If Fowles wasn't there, I think she might well be scoring better, because a lower proportion of her attempts would be those quick-fire jacked-up things she's been repeatedly chucking up this year.
And I know it's been a couple of years, and everyone's a little older, but this team could defend like a top-end squad even before Fowles arrived. If they were starting Howard/Brunson or Brunson/Mediocre Center in the paint, I think they'd probably still be annoyingly good.
I'm not saying it's anyone other than Fowles, or that I wouldn't vote for her - I'm just saying that as long as they call the award 'Most Valuable', there's a case to be made for an alternative like Griner. |
I think its a bit harsh to blame Fowles and her central role in their offense for Maya's crappy play this season. She is the so called the best player of the world so if she cant play great with another player as the first option then she might not be the best player.. Also with all the defensive attention to Fowles she should of been getting more open opportunities then when she is the first option.
Tbh i just think Maya is having a down year. She has missed wide open shots. Cant blame her for that and certainly you cant blame Fowles for that or Reeve for choosing Fowles as their number 1 option.
IMO Fowles is still ahead of Griner but not by much. Griner will need to show up in her next matchup with Fowles though and continue her fantastic play in the 2nd half of the season. If the Mercury finish 3rd then my vote goes to Griner for sure..
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7420 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 07/10/17 6:19 pm ::: |
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Back to Fowles v Griner for MVP. Right now it's almost a dead heat for me. I give Big Syl the tiniest of edges due to sustained outstanding play throughout the season. Griner is coming on STRONG.
There is nobody else in the running right now.
Way behind these two:
Tina Charles
Nneka Ogwumike
Jonquel Jones
Elena Delle Donne
CP3 disqualifies herself by being a complete NO SHOW in some games, possible exception of Tiff Hayes.
NOTE: Very tough year for guards. There's Skyler, Birdie and Chelsea. Big fat zero for wings.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 07/10/17 6:54 pm ::: |
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Not that tough. Diggins-Smith, Jasmine Thomas, and Tiffany Hayes are all having excellent years and are the top three guards this year.
I don't see a huge gap to Tina Charles or Nneka either.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22478 Location: NJ
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Posted: 07/10/17 7:59 pm ::: |
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I don't get the no love for Jonquel Jones. She's top three in the MVP race. Is it because she plays for Connecticut and not a powerhouse team like Minnesota or Los Angeles? Some people putting Ogwumike, Charles or Delle Donne ahead of her.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 07/10/17 8:05 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
I don't get the no love for Jonquel Jones. She's top three in the MVP race. Is it because she plays for Connecticut and not a powerhouse team like Minnesota or Los Angeles? Some people putting Ogwumike, Charles or Delle Donne ahead of her. |
Probably. The Sun have beaten MN, DC, SEA and NY lately though. But is still the "no respect" team. Jones is their best player. Should get some love.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 07/10/17 9:43 pm ::: |
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I like Jones a lot. I liked and followed her in college. I still like her.
She's playing great. I just don't think she takes over games to quite the same extent as the others.
BTW, I don't see EDD belonging in the discussion this year.
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