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| Who will win this game? |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 6191
Location: Chicago-ish
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 Posted: 07/01/17 7:56 pm ::: |
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| SDHoops wrote: |
| Really? People are getting wet over 15 ppg and 50% FG? Don't get me wrong, Quelly is ballin' but Rebkell (rolly eyes) already made this rule where you have to shoot 60% or above to be considered for MVP and at least 19 ppg (see Nneka 2016). I mean, how many ppl were ready to strike when Meek won it I 2012 averaging 15 a game?! |
That's an awful lot of strawmen.
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SDHoops
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 1183
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| Posted: 07/01/17 8:58 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| SDHoops wrote: |
| Really? People are getting wet over 15 ppg and 50% FG? Don't get me wrong, Quelly is ballin' but Rebkell (rolly eyes) already made this rule where you have to shoot 60% or above to be considered for MVP and at least 19 ppg (see Nneka 2016). I mean, how many ppl were ready to strike when Meek won it I 2012 averaging 15 a game?! |
Why do you call Tina Charles "Meek"? |
Oops I meant 2011
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SDHoops
Joined: 09 Nov 2007
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12537
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 07/01/17 11:36 pm ::: |
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| Jonquel Should Honestly Start At Center In the ASG ahead of tina. Unless they Move Tina to the 4 Which Means Edd Plays the 3 . Hail JJ She has emerged. MIP for sure and 1st Team All WNBA this first half of the season to me
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 07/02/17 10:19 am ::: |
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Clearly, Alyssa Thomas is better at power forward than small forward -- but how does Connecticut fit her, Jonquel Jones and Chiney Ogwumike in the same starting lineup?
On another note, how did Erlana Larkins manage to foul out in 12 minutes? You have to work at it to be done that quickly.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 22474
Location: NJ
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| Posted: 07/02/17 10:31 am ::: |
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| I think next season they use A Thomas & Tuck at SF. Ogwumike & Jones start. Draft a PF to back-up Chiney.
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Ay Mate
Joined: 12 Nov 2016
Posts: 1280
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| Posted: 07/02/17 10:34 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Clearly, Alyssa Thomas is better at power forward than small forward -- but how does Connecticut fit her, Jonquel Jones and Chiney Ogwumike in the same starting lineup?
On another note, how did Erlana Larkins manage to foul out in 12 minutes? You have to work at it to be done that quickly. |
Yeah she is a better PF, but I think she can slide back to SF easily next year since her SF game is the same as her PF game. Still, the only thing that hurts her is a lack of an outside shot. This year, 4 of the 5 starters are all good 3 point shooters which is a great asset to have. When Chiney returns next season (and if she starts), that gives us 3 out of 5 starters that are good 3 point shooters. I hope Alyssa can develop that outside shot in the offseason but we've been saying that every year and it hasn't happened.
There's no doubt that having Chiney back next year will be a huge boost, but I don't know if a Jasmine, Courtney, Alyssa, Chiney and Jonquel starting lineup is better than what they have now with Jasmine, Courtney, Shekinna, Alyssa and Jonquel. Maybe the Sun can get away with having a 6 player starting lineup next year lol
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 07/02/17 12:06 pm ::: |
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| One season at a time. One game at a time. With the injury history of Tuck and Chiney, it is probably not necessary to worry about having too many good players at the same time.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: London
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| Posted: 07/02/17 12:34 pm ::: |
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Saying Alyssa Thomas can do the same stuff at the 3 that she does at the 4 is just nonsense. It puts her in different places on the floor. It matches her up against completely different defenders. It minimises weaknesses that are more significant at the 3. It changes the possibilities of the lineup because when she's the 4 they have an extra ballhandler and 'pusher' off defensive rebounds (plus she's way more likely to get those boards as the 4 than as the 3). She has more driving lanes as a 4 because there are two fewer posts clogging the lane (one on her team, one on the other).
Yes, she can still do things and have some success at the 3 - she's still played there a bit in recent games - but it's all been built off the way things have opened up for her at the 4. You can't just shove her back over and expect everything to work just as well.
(Also, I'm highly amused by the number of people I've seen saying they can't wait until everyone's back healthy for the Sun, or how great a fit Tuck is for the depth they need. Um, this team took off when Tuck got hurt and Bentley flew away. But everything's going to be made much better when they're all back and Miller has to work out how they fit again? Seems a little counter-intuitive to me, even if his only real job there is making sure it doesn't screw up what's already working.) |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 07/02/17 1:31 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Saying Alyssa Thomas can do the same stuff at the 3 that she does at the 4 is just nonsense. It puts her in different places on the floor. It matches her up against completely different defenders. |
Aside from my continuing confusion about substantive positional numerology, I think the truth of what you're saying completely depends upon the offensive scheme. A read-and-react motion offense will rotate all players through most floor positions much of the time.
If two players both have a skill set that allows them to score better from eight feet than 18 feet -- say, Thomas and Ogwumike -- then they can both be rotated through various floor positions. (I don't know who is "the" "3" or "4".) This dynamic movement of two highly skilled eight-foot scorers into the paint should be collectively more effective than planting one static eight-foot scorer there most of the time. In addition, if Thomas is then guarded by the other team's 3 instead of their 4 -- presumably a shorter defender -- Thomas should have an easier time scoring in the paint than if she were the only eight-foot scorer on the team and had to face the other team's larger defender.
On the other hand, such a motion offense with Thomas and Ogwumike may sacrifice three-point shooting, but that really shouldn't matter much if the three other players are good enough three-point shooters to spread the defense.
As I say, the use of different player skills from different floor positions is really dependent on the collective skills of all five players and type of offense that's coached. As my read-and-react motion offense avatar, I always think back to UConn's 2002 team. It would be very hard to concretize Bird or Taurasi as "the" 1 or 2; or Williams, Jones or Cash as "the" 3, 4 or 5. You wouldn't have found Williams shooting from beyond the three-point line or Bird playing the low post, but aside from that, the offensive duties and floor positions of the players were very flexible and interchangeable -- to the great frustration of all defenses. |
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 07/02/17 5:04 pm ::: |
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The issue is that Jonquel Jones is occupying the same space. You can only have so many players whose value depends on scoring working in the paint.
Alyssa Thomas is clearly a solid WNBA power forward who can defend with her quickness and strength against players who want to operate close to the basket, and who can score in that area as well. Jonquel Jones and Chiney Ogwumike also fit that profile, but realistically only two can be on the floor at one time.
Playing any of them at the three forces them to guard quickness in space, and, regardless of nomenclature, means one of them is playing offense on the perimeter.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/02/17 6:54 pm ::: |
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I haven't watched the Sun much, but Jonquel Jones must invert out to the arc with some frequency, as she's third on the team in 3PM. Tuck can also score from charc to arc.
If Chiney can come back anywhere close to her pre-injury self, I don't think the Sun will have a 3-4-5 "problem"; they will have an embarrassment of paint production riches. Then it depends on whether the coach has technical smarts and pedagogical abilities. |
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 07/03/17 10:28 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I haven't watched the Sun much, but Jonquel Jones must invert out to the arc with some frequency, as she's third on the team in 3PM. Tuck can also score from charc to arc.
If Chiney can come back anywhere close to her pre-injury self, I don't think the Sun will have a 3-4-5 "problem"; they will have an embarrassment of paint production riches. Then it depends on whether the coach has technical smarts and pedagogical abilities. |
I have to disagree ... it's like saying a football team has 11 all-league linemen so it's up to the coach to turn some of them into quarterbacks and wide receivers.
In basketball terms, looking at it simplistically, there are only two blocks on the offensive of the court, and so only two players can occupy them. A third player who functions best on or near the blocks will only bring another defender into the area if she ventures there.
Sure, Jonquel Jones is a nice three-point shooter for a post, but if both blocks are occupied by Ogwumike and Thomas, then she is no threat to drive -- and even if the other two go out beyond the arc, their defenders won't, thus clogging to lane for Jones and allowing Jones' defender to take away the three. If there is a driving lane open, however, now Jones' defender must respect the drive, and Jones has an open three.
One of the major innovations of recent years has been moving the post to the weakside block to open up driving lanes, but even that only works if there are three-point shooters who force defenders out to the perimeter. If the post goes to the weakside block, but defenders can sag into the paint because no one else can shoot, that driving lane disappears.
Nomenclature is unimportant, but spacing is real, and without shooters, spacing disappears.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/03/17 12:39 pm ::: |
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And just the basic things like where you start halfcourt sets. Virtually every team in the league, including the Sun, start a lot of their possessions out of 'horns', where the two bigs are around the elbows at the top of the free throw line, the two wings are split out wide or deep in the corner, and the point guard is up top with the ball. Being the nominal 3 or 4 is the difference between starting way out wide as a potential cutter/ballhandler/shooter, or being at the elbow as a pivot/screener/roller. We've seen teams flip these sets occasionally - Indiana did it with Catch, Seattle sometimes with Stewart, where a big would be the ballhandler - but it's rare, and worthy of mention when it happens.
Thomas has actually said herself that being at the 4 has opened things up for her, because of the way the 4 is a facilitator in the Connecticut system. And if she could do the same stuff at the 3, isn't it a hell of a coincidence that she's jumped to this level midway into her fourth season at exactly the time she moved over?
I don't think it'd be a big problem fitting everyone in with Chiney back, because having too many good players is always a lovely problem to have. But I do think they'd need to find plenty of time for Thomas at the 4. Who starts where is largely irrelevant, but she needs to get there for large chunks of the game. |
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Ay Mate
Joined: 12 Nov 2016
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| Posted: 07/03/17 1:10 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
And just the basic things like where you start halfcourt sets. Virtually every team in the league, including the Sun, start a lot of their possessions out of 'horns', where the two bigs are around the elbows at the top of the free throw line, the two wings are split out wide or deep in the corner, and the point guard is up top with the ball. Being the nominal 3 or 4 is the difference between starting way out wide as a potential cutter/ballhandler/shooter, or being at the elbow as a pivot/screener/roller. We've seen teams flip these sets occasionally - Indiana did it with Catch, Seattle sometimes with Stewart, where a big would be the ballhandler - but it's rare, and worthy of mention when it happens.
Thomas has actually said herself that being at the 4 has opened things up for her, because of the way the 4 is a facilitator in the Connecticut system. And if she could do the same stuff at the 3, isn't it a hell of a coincidence that she's jumped to this level midway into her fourth season at exactly the time she moved over?
I don't think it'd be a big problem fitting everyone in with Chiney back, because having too many good players is always a lovely problem to have. But I do think they'd need to find plenty of time for Thomas at the 4. Who starts where is largely irrelevant, but she needs to get there for large chunks of the game. |
Well I'm sure Chiney will be playing limited minutes at first until she gets her sea legs back underneath her. So AThomas will be starting at the 4 for at least the first half of the season I'm sure.
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