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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7502 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 06/14/17 3:15 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
It makes EDD less of a threat than she could be (which is saying something, considering how scary she is anyway). Teams know how ridiculously unlikely she is to pass, so they can slide across into the lane or double her with impunity, because she gets about one assist per night. Which is freaking ridiculous. If she wasn't so damn good anyway, we'd say she's never grown out of the college mindset where her team's only real option was her scoring.
For a player who draws so much attention, which should create open teammates all over the floor, it's crazy how ittle she creates for others. |
I agree. Partly it comes from her college choice and being so richly rewarded for shooting vs passing. Partly is comes from her WNBA coaches not forcing her to pass the ball. The other part is on EDD herself - as smart as she is, she has not yet figured out how important it is to continue developing her game. She and Mike T should TOGETHER be figuring out how she can pass out of the double/triple teams. Like I said above, her Mystics teammates act differently when she has the ball than they do any other time. It's a fixable issue but requires strong intervention on EDD and the team. Mike T is fully capable of doing this. Failure to take this on in Chicago falls on Pokey AND EDD.
EDD needs to watch film on CP3 and see how she changed the way she plays that turned LA into a winner - she's now a triple/double threat almost every game. EDD's teams will not achieve all that they should until she commits to this.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 06/14/17 4:07 pm ::: |
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Parker was a pretty gifted passer from the day she came into the League, long before Agler arrived and asked her to be even more of a distributor. She's always had the superstar mentality on top, but she has a vision that's probably 'unteachable' on a certain level.
But at the same time it shouldn't be impossibly hard to make EDD realise that when she's guarded by three opponents, a couple of her teammates are guarded by no one. I've never felt she was just a 'greedy' player like some (Tulsa-era Riquna Williams, old school Matee Ajavon, every day of Andrea Riley's life, etc.). She just seems to get tunnel vision, where she's going to shoot and little short of an earthquake could stop it. The 'pass' option needs to last in her head a little longer sometimes. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/14/17 5:27 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
But at the same time it shouldn't be impossibly hard to make EDD realise that when she's guarded by three opponents, a couple of her teammates are guarded by no one. I've never felt she was just a 'greedy' player like some (Tulsa-era Riquna Williams, old school Matee Ajavon, every day of Andrea Riley's life, etc.). She just seems to get tunnel vision, where she's going to shoot and little short of an earthquake could stop it. The 'pass' option needs to last in her head a little longer sometimes. |
It's hard to think passing is a good option when your shots don't even have to go in to be counted
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11403
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Posted: 06/14/17 7:27 pm ::: |
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One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%?
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18131 Location: Queens
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Posted: 06/14/17 9:28 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
But at the same time it shouldn't be impossibly hard to make EDD realise that when she's guarded by three opponents, a couple of her teammates are guarded by no one. I've never felt she was just a 'greedy' player like some (Tulsa-era Riquna Williams, old school Matee Ajavon, every day of Andrea Riley's life, etc.). She just seems to get tunnel vision, where she's going to shoot and little short of an earthquake could stop it. The 'pass' option needs to last in her head a little longer sometimes. |
It's hard to think passing is a good option when your shots don't even have to go in to be counted |
pilight... let it go. Let it go, let it gooooooooo....
_________________ "We all have a platform. We all have a voice & they all hold weight. Silence is a luxury."
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22513 Location: NJ
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7502 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 06/14/17 10:08 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
Good points Clay. But I think the rest of the team is shooting worse than usual. They certainly look like statues when EDD has the ball. Intervention is needed for this team to compete for the top of the league. The only player exceeding all expectations is Krystal Thomas who should be the #1 recipient of EDD passes - or anybody making a cut into the paint.
Seriously. Run drills with all the possible defenses of EDD, who's doubling, defensive rotations, etc and show players where to move in each case. Train EDD where to look for the moving player. I understand tunnel vision - I get it at work and miss opportunities. But, when shown where to look, it's WAY easy. Mike T and the whole team can make this happen. Getting easy layups will WAY up the shooting percentages.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Jet Jaguar
Joined: 11 Feb 2014 Posts: 1111
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Posted: 06/14/17 11:34 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
If a player can't hit a wide open shot at a good clip then why are any of these players in the WNBA?
_________________ Oderint dum metuant - Let them hate, so long as they fear
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11403
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Posted: 06/15/17 10:07 am ::: |
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Jet Jaguar wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
If a player can't hit a wide open shot at a good clip then why are any of these players in the WNBA? |
Because shooting is way undervalued at the youth level. The minimum standard of athleticism required to play in the WNBA is so high that anyone who has that much athleticism can pretty much get to the rim whenever she wants throughout middle school, club and high school basketball.
Since parents are focused on winning meaningless seventh grade tournaments, they don't want their daughters missing jump shots (which is how you learn to make them) when they can drive every time and win lots of games. If coaches want to coach good players, they have to win, otherwise the parents take them to other coaches who are less concerned with player development.
So you have athletic and skilled perimeter players in both the men's and women's game who can do everything but shoot ...
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5567 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 06/15/17 10:21 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Jet Jaguar wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
If a player can't hit a wide open shot at a good clip then why are any of these players in the WNBA? |
Because shooting is way undervalued at the youth level. The minimum standard of athleticism required to play in the WNBA is so high that anyone who has that much athleticism can pretty much get to the rim whenever she wants throughout middle school, club and high school basketball.
Since parents are focused on winning meaningless seventh grade tournaments, they don't want their daughters missing jump shots (which is how you learn to make them) when they can drive every time and win lots of games. If coaches want to coach good players, they have to win, otherwise the parents take them to other coaches who are less concerned with player development.
So you have athletic and skilled perimeter players in both the men's and women's game who can do everything but shoot ... |
Preach, Clayk. PREACH!
_________________ You can win, as long as you keep your head to the SKY! Be OPTIMISTIC!
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 06/15/17 12:23 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Jet Jaguar wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
If a player can't hit a wide open shot at a good clip then why are any of these players in the WNBA? |
Because shooting is way undervalued at the youth level. The minimum standard of athleticism required to play in the WNBA is so high that anyone who has that much athleticism can pretty much get to the rim whenever she wants throughout middle school, club and high school basketball.
Since parents are focused on winning meaningless seventh grade tournaments, they don't want their daughters missing jump shots (which is how you learn to make them) when they can drive every time and win lots of games. If coaches want to coach good players, they have to win, otherwise the parents take them to other coaches who are less concerned with player development.
So you have athletic and skilled perimeter players in both the men's and women's game who can do everything but shoot ... |
It's been notable with this current NBA draft class that everybody seems to love - the analysts go through all the players they like and 'must improve his shooting' and 'needs to work on jump shot' is repeated for virtually everybody. It's a matter of projecting who might be able to develop a shot, rather than seeing who can already shoot. |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7502 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 06/19/17 12:49 pm ::: |
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readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
Good points Clay. But I think the rest of the team is shooting worse than usual. They certainly look like statues when EDD has the ball. Intervention is needed for this team to compete for the top of the league. The only player exceeding all expectations is Krystal Thomas who should be the #1 recipient of EDD passes - or anybody making a cut into the paint.
Seriously. Run drills with all the possible defenses of EDD, who's doubling, defensive rotations, etc and show players where to move in each case. Train EDD where to look for the moving player. I understand tunnel vision - I get it at work and miss opportunities. But, when shown where to look, it's WAY easy. Mike T and the whole team can make this happen. Getting easy layups will WAY up the shooting percentages. |
Update after 6/18 game vs Wings:
It looked to me like Mike T did EXACTLY what I suggested as the team looked a LOT better when EDD had the ball. And EDD was looking for the pass a lot more instead of forcing shots with three defenders hanging on her. The downside was EDD did not score as much and the team lost so back to the drawing board.
Then there's Toliver. KTO has greatly underachieved so far this season based on her years with LA under multiple different coaches. My thought on this is that she hasn't yet earned the green light with Mike T and/or the ball isn't coming back out to her later in the shot clock, where she excels at taking "the shot that isn't there." She isn't a spot up shooter like Tayler Hill. She shoots off the dribble when she appears to be covered by a defender and other defenders are busy covering her pass options. Is there something about Mike T's offense that disrupts KTO's timing? Or does she not have the green light to take the shots she's been making for several years at a very good clip?
On the other hand, LA looks to be better without her, as Chelsea Gray (being taller) is not the same defensive liability that Toliver always has been. Gray has shown herself to be capable of scoring well, but doesn't usually take as many shots, being a pass first PG. This is why Agler needs another outside scorer on the floor (Riquna or Odyssey), both of whom are better defenders than Kristi. And, while Kristi did make clear contributions to the LA Championship run, she was 5th or even 6th in terms of the strength of her contributions, only possibly beating out Essence Carson among the starters and even behind former bench player Chelsea Gray.
Basically, if KTO fails to provide more scoring, it might be time to move her to the bench in favor of a player who is not a defensive liability.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Lumes
Joined: 16 May 2015 Posts: 470 Location: Ukraine
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Posted: 06/19/17 4:05 pm ::: |
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Washington has played so slow, so academically, that Wings were able to shut down all shooters. Only penetrators like Hill and TRP felt good. Have shooters - move the ball! And Mystics were spending 10 seconds just to settle all players in offense. Terrible game. Tolliver had 17 points in run and gun win over Wings 2 weeks earlier. What has happened? I think, pace wasn't favorable for her and the team overall.
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 6191 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: 06/19/17 4:16 pm ::: |
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Lumes wrote: |
Washington has played so slow, so academically, that Wings were able to shut down all shooters. Only penetrators like Hill and TRP felt good. Have shooters - move the ball! And Mystics were spending 10 seconds just to settle all players in offense. Terrible game. Tolliver had 17 points in run and gun win over Wings 2 weeks earlier. What has happened? I think, pace wasn't favorable for her and the team overall. |
Yes, they've been one of the slower teams in the league, and the constant ball reversal makes them somewhat predictable to defend. EDD said earlier that the team has no quick hitters, which I find odd for a roster built like this. 3-point shooting is one thing but this offense isn't a very modern one.
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lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 10697 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 06/20/17 3:52 pm ::: |
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Mike and Eric Thibault will miss Friday's game against Minnesota due to the death of their father/grandfather.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 64255
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Posted: 06/20/17 4:06 pm ::: |
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lynxmania wrote: |
Mike and Eric Thibault will miss Friday's game against Minnesota due to the death of their father/grandfather. |
That leaves Marianne Stanley in charge with no assistance? That should be interesting.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4171
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Posted: 06/20/17 5:00 pm ::: |
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readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
One of the things we try to tell our players, even at the high school level, is "know who's on the floor."
Or, "If your contested shot has a better chance to go in than Sarah's wideopen shot, shoot the contested shot."
EDD shoots 49.6% from the field and most are contested, I'd guess, in one way or another. Tayler Hill, the worst shooter in the league for the last few years, is at 37.4%; TRP is at 32.1%. Emma is at 40% and Cloud is even worse.
So what's the percentage in kicking the ball to the perimeter, especially since even Toliver is barely above 40%? |
Update after 6/18 game vs Wings:
It looked to me like Mike T did EXACTLY what I suggested as the team looked a LOT better when EDD had the ball. And EDD was looking for the pass a lot more instead of forcing shots with three defenders hanging on her. The downside was EDD did not score as much and the team lost so back to the drawing board.
Then there's Toliver. KTO has greatly underachieved so far this season based on her years with LA under multiple different coaches. My thought on this is that she hasn't yet earned the green light with Mike T and/or the ball isn't coming back out to her later in the shot clock, where she excels at taking "the shot that isn't there." She isn't a spot up shooter like Tayler Hill. She shoots off the dribble when she appears to be covered by a defender and other defenders are busy covering her pass options. Is there something about Mike T's offense that disrupts KTO's timing? Or does she not have the green light to take the shots she's been making for several years at a very good clip?
On the other hand, LA looks to be better without her, as Chelsea Gray (being taller) is not the same defensive liability that Toliver always has been. Gray has shown herself to be capable of scoring well, but doesn't usually take as many shots, being a pass first PG. This is why Agler needs another outside scorer on the floor (Riquna or Odyssey), both of whom are better defenders than Kristi. And, while Kristi did make clear contributions to the LA Championship run, she was 5th or even 6th in terms of the strength of her contributions, only possibly beating out Essence Carson among the starters and even behind former bench player Chelsea Gray.
Basically, if KTO fails to provide more scoring, it might be time to move her to the bench in favor of a player who is not a defensive liability. |
She was #3 in scoring, #2 in assists, #2 in free throw percentage, #2 in 3pt percentage, and #1 in 3pts made.
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wnbafan
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 784 Location: Delaware
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Posted: 06/20/17 6:10 pm ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
lynxmania wrote: |
Mike and Eric Thibault will miss Friday's game against Minnesota due to the death of their father/grandfather. |
That leaves Marianne Stanley in charge with no assistance? That should be interesting. |
She did a great job coaching the team back in the early 2000s before she was fired.
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RP
Joined: 17 Jul 2010 Posts: 1299
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Posted: 06/20/17 6:11 pm ::: |
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...and had the highest net plus-minus on the team, with only the MVP close.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/20/17 6:20 pm ::: |
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wnbafan wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
lynxmania wrote: |
Mike and Eric Thibault will miss Friday's game against Minnesota due to the death of their father/grandfather. |
That leaves Marianne Stanley in charge with no assistance? That should be interesting. |
She did a great job coaching the team back in the early 2000s before she was fired. |
She had one decent year, in which the Mystics went 17-15 and had the one and only playoff series win in franchise history. The next season the team fell to 9-25 and she was unsurprisingly canned.
Now that I think about it, that is pretty great by Mystics standards. 17-15 is the second best regular season record in team history.
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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StevenHW
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 10987 Location: Sacramento, California
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Posted: 06/20/17 6:47 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
wnbafan wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
lynxmania wrote: |
Mike and Eric Thibault will miss Friday's game against Minnesota due to the death of their father/grandfather. |
That leaves Marianne Stanley in charge with no assistance? That should be interesting. |
She did a great job coaching the team back in the early 2000s before she was fired. |
She had one decent year, in which the Mystics went 17-15 and had the one and only playoff series win in franchise history. The next season the team fell to 9-25 and she was unsurprisingly canned.
Now that I think about it, that is pretty great by Mystics standards. 17-15 is the second best regular season record in team history. |
Hmm. Well, to my knowledge, Anne Donovan isn't doing anything hoops-related right now...
_________________ "The more I see of the moneyed classes, the more I understand the guillotine." -- George Bernard Shaw
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Mysticsfan12
Joined: 19 Sep 2014 Posts: 497
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22513 Location: NJ
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Posted: 06/22/17 6:11 pm ::: |
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But there are 20 games a year with playoffs, and for 17 of those games we have about 3,000 people in the building. When you have 3,000 or 4,000 people in a 20,000 seat building, you look unsuccessful. On Sunday, we had a good crowd of about 5,000. The entire upper deck of Verizon Center was empty. And I mean, not a soul! |
so he's basically admitting to lying about the attendance numbers they report. Their last game was reported at over 7,000.
Quote: |
We need more NBA owners to own WNBA teams. The ideal set up would be to own an NBA team, a D-League team, and a WNBA team. |
agree with this. NBA owners have deeper pockets. Would love to see the WNBA back in Houston, Cleveland, Portland & Sacramento under their current NBA partners.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67491 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/22/17 6:14 pm ::: |
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This is new...
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those three time a year where there's Camp Days, the Mystics will still play at the Verizon Center! |
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22513 Location: NJ
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Posted: 06/22/17 6:16 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
This is new...
Quote: |
those three time a year where there's Camp Days, the Mystics will still play at the Verizon Center! |
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Gotta boost their overall average somehow.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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