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Lynx @ Wings - 6/11/17
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Who will win this game?
Lynx
64%
 64%  [ 11 ]
Wings
35%
 35%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 17

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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 3:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Dp



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
tfan wrote:


However, I am looking at her own skillset independent of teammates. She has objectively gained more skills since she arrived in Minnesota. The most dramatic being her usage of her left hand. That hand was non-existent in Chicago, now it is a huge part of her game. And there are many other areas of marked improvement in the execution of her game.


Do you have a quote from Reeve or Fowles crediting Reeve for Fowle's individual development? Any development in her individual game doesn't have to have come from working with her US pro team head coach.

It comes from the whole coaching staff. I'm sure Jim Pete had a lot to do with it as well when he was with the team, and now the new coaches they brought in.

One of the big reasons Syl wanted to come to Minny was because of the coaching staff and how they could expand her game (which was a direct quote from her).



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Randy



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 3:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm pretty players quotes are about as honest forthright as Orange Headed Tweet at 3am. They always say the coaches are great, etc.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I'm pretty players quotes are about as honest forthright as Orange Headed Tweet at 3am. They always say the coaches are great, etc.

Here the proof is in the pudding. Fowles is demonstrating a significantly improved skillset. This is observable fact.

If not her coaches, who is it we are to credit for this skill expansion? Barring any statements to the contrary, I see no reason to not take her at her word. I mean perhaps she stumbled upon a magical lamp and used her wishes to improve her footwork, positioning, passing, and to give her a left hand....but I would think coaching is a bit more likely.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Randy wrote:
I'm pretty players quotes are about as honest forthright as Orange Headed Tweet at 3am. They always say the coaches are great, etc.

Here the proof is in the pudding. Fowles is demonstrating a significantly improved skillset. This is observable fact.

If not her coaches, who is it we are to credit for this skill expansion? Barring any statements to the contrary, I see no reason to not take her at her word. I mean perhaps she stumbled upon a magical lamp and used her wishes to improve her footwork, positioning, passing, and to give her a left hand....but I would think coaching is a bit more likely.


Fowles has coaches overseas. She also has teammates. And she observes and works on her own. She is the classic player to show offensive improvement as their pro career goes on - having had great success off the bat from being very big and very athletic - with little in the way of offensive basketball skills. I don't think that Fowles in her last year in Chicago had the same offensive skills of Fowles at LSU. It would give more credence to giving all credit for an improvement in her skills to the Lynx coaches if it was a demonstrated observable fact that other Lynx post players like McCarville, Peters, and Harris showed a significantly improved skillset while they played there. Is that the case?


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PostPosted: 06/12/17 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Is that the case?

Yes.

It is one of the big reasons Jim Pete was offered the Sun job, though he declined it.

Do you really think that it was Fowles' Chinese coaches that did it? In a league where she would have already been dominant? Come on. You are rejecting the most plausible reason, and the one that Fowles herself credits, over a bunch of "what ifs" and "possiblies". That is extremely flawed reasoning.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I guess by this logic, Clarendon's improvement since she came to Atlanta can be attributed to Cooper's coaching, or bad coaching in Indiana?


justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I guess by this logic, Clarendon's improvement since she came to Atlanta can be attributed to Cooper's coaching, or bad coaching in Indiana?

Possibly. Or it could be more playing time or just natural progression of a young player.

I haven't watched her closely, has she added a new skill that was not previously in her repertoire? Has she credited Atlanta for expanding her game? If yes to those questions, then I would say Cooper and Atlanta should be credited greatly.

Just like New York (and especially Weatherspoon) should be credited for Sugar Rodgers' development. She ended up in a place where she could be utilized and developed better than she could be in Minnesota, due to the circumstances.

Also, this doesn't happen in a vacuum. Minnesota has one of the best coaches of all time leading the way, while Pokey has been disappointing at the professional level, with numerous high level players wanting to get away from that program.

Your position seems to be saying that a player's dramatic improvement in adding new skills and raising the quality of their play is mostly independent of the coaching staff. That seems rather unbelievable and counter to all of my experience in athletics.



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 9:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I... don't think people fleeing Chicago has much to do with Chatman.



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
You are rejecting the most plausible reason, and the one that Fowles herself credits, over a bunch of "what ifs" and "possiblies".


"Lynx coaches" has been a "what if" and a "possible" as well up to this post. You haven't previously said that Fowles credits the Lynx coach with improving her game. When I asked previously you said that she had talked about Lynx coaches - before she went there (and why not throw in some typical pleasantry like that along with what I remember: "need a change" in order to distract from the totally obvious "they are the best freaking team in the league and I want to win a championship"). Are you now claiming that she has mentioned them working with her since she got there - and if so, why didn't you mention it when I asked? We do need a link at this point.




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PostPosted: 06/12/17 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
I... don't think people fleeing Chicago has much to do with Chatman.


Exclamation



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
dramatic improvement in adding new skills and raising the quality of their play


I don't see any significant statistical evidence of this in Fowles' first two years with the Lynx compared to her Chicago years. Are you making this causal claim on behalf of the Lynx coaching staff based solely on nine games this season? If so, that's magically quick work by Reeves. Why not equally attribute the alleged dramatic improvement to Fowles' Olympic coach and overseas coaches during 2016-17, or to Fowles' own personal efforts at improvement?
justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
justintyme wrote:
dramatic improvement in adding new skills and raising the quality of their play


I don't see any significant statistical evidence of this in Fowles' first two years with the Lynx compared to her Chicago years. Are you making this causal claim on behalf of the Lynx coaching staff based solely on nine games this season? If so, that's magically quick work by Reeves. Why not equally attribute the alleged dramatic improvement to Fowles' Olympic coach and overseas coaches during 2016-17, or to Fowles' own personal efforts at improvement?

Why are people so obsessed with statistics instead of actual observation? Simply watching her play will show you a player that has more tools at her disposal now than even 2 years ago. She does things now (like shoot with her left hand effectively) that she had never done before. I can't be the only person to have noticed this.

And why is it such a leap to suggest that the major change that occured in her place of employment, might have a significant role in that? Especially since that is what good coaches do, and Minnesota has some of the best ever....

I mean, come on, are people just being disingenuous to play devil's advocate/troll, or do they honestly not think that coaching is responsible? I thought I was pretty much stating the obvious, not offering up some logic stretching "hot take".



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is also about who is playing around Fowles and what mindset she has. For the Sky she needed to get the ball and score a lot to win. So she was forcing a lot and not passing out when double and triple teamed. With the Lynx she has so many great players around her that she knows she is going to get the ball and score or will be able to make a good play for others. She is playing with confidence.

The same difference i saw when she played with Bird, Taurasi and LJ at Spartak Moscow.



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
justintyme wrote:
dramatic improvement in adding new skills and raising the quality of their play


I don't see any significant statistical evidence of this in Fowles' first two years with the Lynx compared to her Chicago years. Are you making this causal claim on behalf of the Lynx coaching staff based solely on nine games this season? If so, that's magically quick work by Reeves. Why not equally attribute the alleged dramatic improvement to Fowles' Olympic coach and overseas coaches during 2016-17, or to Fowles' own personal efforts at improvement?


I didn't see any statistical evidence to support the other claim that Janel McCarville had significantly improved her skills while with the Lynx.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:
You are rejecting the most plausible reason, and the one that Fowles herself credits, over a bunch of "what ifs" and "possiblies".


"Lynx coaches" has been a "what if" and a "possible" as well up to this post. You haven't previously said that Fowles credits the Lynx coach with improving her game. When I asked previously you said that she had talked about Lynx coaches - before she went there (and why not throw in some typical pleasantry like that along with what I remember: "need a change" in order to distract from the totally obvious "they are the best freaking team in the league and I want to win a championship"). Are you now claiming that she has mentioned them working with her since she got there - and if so, why didn't you mention it when I asked? We do need a link at this point.

She has mentioned coaching numerous times in various post game pressers. I don't have the links because I don't know where they are archived (or if they even are).

This had been a major theme with her over the last couple years, working with coaches to reach the next level.



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If a longtime Sky season ticket holder's opinion means anything, this is the best I've ever seen Sylvia play. She's making better reads, passing out of double teams, and showing great patience with the ball. Obviously earlier in her career she was able to put up huge numbers on crappy teams based on talent and size alone, but intangibly this is night and day from 2012-13 Fowles. I'm not exactly sure what the big argument is about here but from what I can see, this is already the second or third time her role on the team has changed, which I'd chalk up to coaching...



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
justintyme wrote:
dramatic improvement in adding new skills and raising the quality of their play


I don't see any significant statistical evidence of this in Fowles' first two years with the Lynx compared to her Chicago years. Are you making this causal claim on behalf of the Lynx coaching staff based solely on nine games this season? If so, that's magically quick work by Reeves. Why not equally attribute the alleged dramatic improvement to Fowles' Olympic coach and overseas coaches during 2016-17, or to Fowles' own personal efforts at improvement?


I didn't see any statistical evidence to support the other claim that Janel McCarville had significantly improved her skills while with the Lynx.

Seriously, looking at stats alone as a bellwether for player development is just dumb. As any coach or scout will tell you, you have to watch the film. There are so many factors that go into stats that will cause them to fluctuate. Things like team role, minutes played, surrounding talent, etc. The film gives a better feel for how they are actually playing. That is why, in the case of Fowles, I was sticking to demonstable facts. It is a fact that her footwork and positioning is better now tham when she first arrived. It is a fact that she shoots with her left hand now. It is a fact that her passing has improved. These are non-debatable truths that can be observed first hand.



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 12:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sigur3 wrote:
If a longtime Sky season ticket holder's opinion means anything, this is the best I've ever seen Sylvia play. She's making better reads, passing out of double teams, and showing great patience with the ball. Obviously earlier in her career she was able to put up huge numbers on crappy teams based on talent and size alone, but intangibly this is night and day from 2012-13 Fowles. I'm not exactly sure what the big argument is about here but from what I can see, this is already the second or third time her role on the team has changed, which I'd chalk up to coaching...

Thank you! Like I said, I thought I was making a fairly obvious throw-away observation. I did not think it would spark such a debate.

I was just pretty much in awe of what she is accomplishing this late in her career as far as improvement. And to me that speaks highly of the work she and her coaches have been doing!



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 5:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I feel like improving your game comes mostly down to individual effort and time.
What did Sylvia do this past WNBA off-season? Did she stay home instead of playing in Europe or Asia? (I don't recall her name coming up much over the winter)
Of course decent coaching is a factor too, but I think history shows that it's a lot easier to refine your game if you aren't currently competing in a league and you use that spare time to practise rather than relax. It's something that Lisa Leslie usually seemed to opt for, and her game constantly improved as her career progressed. Then contrast with someone like LJ who constantly worked on her game too, but also played 24/7/365 so she never got herself healthy & fresh.

There are always willing coaches out there for players that are prepared to put in the hours. Most of the credit for Syl taking her game to the next level surely needs to go to Syl herself.
(and then, as already mentioned, there's the team actually playing to her strengths, so of course Cheryl Reeve gets credit too)



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 7:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I feel like improving your game comes mostly down to individual effort and time.
.... Most of the credit for Syl taking her game to the next level surely needs to go to Syl herself.
(and then, as already mentioned, there's the team actually playing to her strengths, so of course Cheryl Reeve gets credit too)


This comes down to a stat test v. eye test sort of argument, and probably a lot of agendas underlying it all. As they say "figures don't lie by liars sure can figure" so stat tests aren't purely objective. On the other hand, people's eye's fool them all the time particularly when they seem to confirm a bias that's already deeply held.

I just find it hard to believe that coaching in a 3 week training camp and the limited amount of practice WNBA teams has improved Syl so much from last year to this year. I suspect Syl worked on her game and the coaching staff probably realized that some of the older players couldn't keep carrying the same load so worked more plays for her. Finally, Brunson has suddenly become a 3 point threat - that has to improve spacing to give Syl more room to operate. If that goes away, Syl's new found efficiency will likely drop.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 8:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree that Fowles is having the best first nine games of her WNBA career, and I'll accept for the sake of argument that she's improved her left hand play.

But a left hand skill improvement does not at all prove that Reeves has coached up Fowles better than anyone has in the past, including Reeves. All players are continuously coached to improve their off-hand play beginning in the fourth grade. All low post players are encouraged by coaches to develop left and right handed moves and footwork, again from the earliest years they are played in the low post position.

To me, the likeliest explanation for Fowles' improvement in this area is that she, as a personal challenge, finally took two decades of this coaching advice more seriously. I don't doubt that Reeves has been the most recent coach singing this song to Fowles.

I also agree that Fowles is naturally improved, and free to play with less pressure, by being surrounded by experienced WNBA all-stars and Olympians on the Lynx.
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PostPosted: 06/13/17 9:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

First, to me the biggest improvement in Fowles' game is her ability to make good passes. She has nearly doubled her career assist average this season, and though her turnovers are slightly up over the last couple years, that rate is also below her career average.

Second, coaching individuals is, not surprisingly, a very individual process. You can credit the Lynx coaching staff for Fowles, but then what do you do with Sugar Rodgers?

My point is that different coaches connect with different players in different ways. I can confidently say that I have helped several players become better over the years, and at the same time say that I have done little or nothing with others. It's not because of me or the player, but rather the connection between us that allows teaching to occur. I've been unable to help some girls I got along with really well, and able to help some who were much more neutral.

For whatever reason, Fowles feels she's gotten better coaching with Minnesota, and since she's the individual involved, it's hard to argue with that. Maybe a more precise quote along the lines of "I've really had a good connection with the Minnesota coaches and though I've heard many of the same things over the years, I've been able to apply those insights more thanks to the way they were presented here."



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://soundcloud.com/lynx-radio/prac17_fowles_0531

http://lynx.wnba.com/news/fowles-credits-coaches-teammates-award/

http://www.twincities.com/2017/05/02/lynx-coach-trying-to-prod-sylvia-fowles-into-psycho-mode/

http://www.startribune.com/the-making-of-sylvia-fowles-lynx-center-still-isn-t-done-growing/421572323/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/sports/basketball/after-trade-sylvia-fowles-helps-lynx-flourish.html?_r=0


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 11:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

kojthiabkuv wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/lynx-radio/prac17_fowles_0531

http://lynx.wnba.com/news/fowles-credits-coaches-teammates-award/

http://www.twincities.com/2017/05/02/lynx-coach-trying-to-prod-sylvia-fowles-into-psycho-mode/

http://www.startribune.com/the-making-of-sylvia-fowles-lynx-center-still-isn-t-done-growing/421572323/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/sports/basketball/after-trade-sylvia-fowles-helps-lynx-flourish.html?_r=0


I didn't listen to the soundcloud audio, but in the two articles from the spring of 2017, it sounds as though Reeves tries to prod Fowles to be better but any improvement will be on Fowles' initiative and terms.

Twin Cities Pioneer Press:

Quote:
But any evolution Fowles makes will likely be on her terms.

“I like a challenge and I push myself a lot,” she said. “I’m my biggest critic. Me and (Reeve) get into that a lot, because I can be hard on myself, but she can’t be hard on me. She don’t understand how I can not let her get to me when I’m always hard on myself.

“I don’t think she’s going to get me there quite yet, but I know what it takes to get me there.”


Star Tribune:

Quote:
Reeve admitted Fowles is her biggest challenge as a coach.

“I need her to be on the edge,” Reeve said. “Every coach would like to do that without the prodding. But I’ll prod, if needed.”

Fowles?

". . . . In her opinion, she thinks I’m somewhat conservative. She’s trying to get me into psycho mode. … I have a psycho mode. It’s that I’m not going to give Coach Reeve the pleasure of making me crazy.

“I see her do it with Seimone [Augustus], and I can’t handle it. She doesn’t have to push my buttons to get me there.”

She said she will get there herself.
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PostPosted: 06/13/17 1:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
tfan wrote:

I didn't see any statistical evidence to support the other claim that Janel McCarville had significantly improved her skills while with the Lynx.


Seriously, looking at stats alone as a bellwether for player development is just dumb. As any coach or scout will tell you, you have to watch the film. There are so many factors that go into stats that will cause them to fluctuate. Things like team role, minutes played, surrounding talent, etc. The film gives a better feel for how they are actually playing. That is why, in the case of Fowles, I was sticking to demonstrable facts. It is a fact that her footwork and positioning is better now than when she first arrived. It is a fact that she shoots with her left hand now. It is a fact that her passing has improved. These are non-debatable truths that can be observed first hand.


By the same token, you never rely on a partisan's praise alone, no matter how emphatically and assuredly given. In the case of McCarville, you didn't provide us with any details of how she had improved during her Lynx tenure.


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PostPosted: 06/13/17 7:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Interesting turn in this thread Shocked

GlennMacGrady wrote:
kojthiabkuv wrote:
https://soundcloud.com/lynx-radio/prac17_fowles_0531

http://lynx.wnba.com/news/fowles-credits-coaches-teammates-award/

http://www.twincities.com/2017/05/02/lynx-coach-trying-to-prod-sylvia-fowles-into-psycho-mode/

http://www.startribune.com/the-making-of-sylvia-fowles-lynx-center-still-isn-t-done-growing/421572323/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/17/sports/basketball/after-trade-sylvia-fowles-helps-lynx-flourish.html?_r=0


I didn't listen to the soundcloud audio, but in the two articles from the spring of 2017, it sounds as though Reeves tries to prod Fowles to be better but any improvement will be on Fowles' initiative and terms.

Personally found the angle taken by the writers odd, but they played up media day quotes looking for some conflict between coach & player. Sly's done a bunch of interviews since explaining the situation really isn't a big deal & has kind of become a team joke Laughing

Player improvement especially by great players, is ALWAYS a comb of multiple things. Their own hard work, teaching from those around them, their applying what they learn …

Anyway this interview is from this wk and is REALLY worth a listen (7:42) it pretty much sums up, in Sly's own words her journey to this point ... Idea

https://soundcloud.com/lynx-radio/conv17_focke_0602



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PostPosted: 06/13/17 8:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MNfan22 wrote:
I
Personally found the angle taken by the writers odd, but they played up media day quotes looking for some conflict between coach & player.



Which is exactly the reason why players tend to say as little of consequence as possible in interviews rendering them pretty useless. I have no idea as to whether the reporter blew something up out of nothing or not, in this case. But the potential for that sort of thing is always there. For this reason, I don't tend to listen to player interviews very much and I certainly don't blame them for being rah - rah about their team and coaches in interviews.


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PostPosted: 06/14/17 9:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From long experience, any interview with an experienced, intelligent subject is going to reveal only as much as the interviewee wants, which in most cases is very little.

The only way to get more of a feel is to spend several days with someone, and even then, the interviewee pretty much controls the agenda.

Even worse are most high school players, who have little to say (as most of us did at that age) and say it poorly.



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PostPosted: 06/14/17 4:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
justintyme wrote:
dramatic improvement in adding new skills and raising the quality of their play


I don't see any significant statistical evidence of this in Fowles' first two years with the Lynx compared to her Chicago years. Are you making this causal claim on behalf of the Lynx coaching staff based solely on nine games this season? If so, that's magically quick work by Reeves. Why not equally attribute the alleged dramatic improvement to Fowles' Olympic coach and overseas coaches during 2016-17, or to Fowles' own personal efforts at improvement?


I didn't see any statistical evidence to support the other claim that Janel McCarville had significantly improved her skills while with the Lynx.


Now you're being silly. J-Mac and Big Syl bring completely different skill sets and levels of innate talent to the position. J-Mac was never going to be much more than she was prior to coming to the Lynx; she had maximized her potential given her age, body type, and particular strengths. Big Syl, on the other hand, had NOT maximized her potential. She knew that. She wanted to get better and came to Minnesota to play with some great players and coaches in order to improve.

I am sure Lynx coaches have helped her. You can see it. But I think she has also been greatly helped by teammates. Brunson is the most instinctive rebounder I have ever seen play. Leadership among the players is spread around so that no one person is expected to lead in every way. And there are no difficult divas.

I think Big Syl is just in a good place for her, and coaching is part of that but we can't pick just one aspect of what makes Minnesota a good fit for Fowles.



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PostPosted: 06/14/17 8:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

reeve was on kfan radio tuesday.

when asked about Syl, she said that after reflecting on the loss in the finals, she had to be a better coach for Sylvia. the results are showing that's for damn sure.


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