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root_thing



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 11:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't recall if it was on a separate thread, but I remember people lining up to say Jewell Loyd was a bust early in 2015. Plum has played 6 games. Below are Loyd's numbers after 8 games. Unfortunately, WNBA.com no longer has the minutes played.

5.9 ppg (20-61 .328), 3.4 rpg, 1.1 apg, 1.1 TO, 1.75 PF, -43 +/-

Loyd broke out for 21 pts (7-12) in her ninth game and seem to right the ship after that.

If the rumors we heard after the draft are true, Plum is in a difficult position. It sounds like SAS took Kelsey in hopes of trading her. Management doesn't want you, the fans expect you to be a savior and your agent is at war with management. And then there's the question of how you fit in position and system-wise. Throw in missed time from an injury, and it's one big mess.



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A lot of this is why I thought Plum and Jefferson playing together this year might not be a bad thing. Ignoring the issues it creates on defense (where they suck anyway), they both have the ability to initiate and create offense, so they could take pressure off each other. We see this all over the League - Loyd runs possessions in Seattle, Hayes in Atlanta, Augustus/Moore in Minnesota and on and on. Multiple players who can create is a good thing.

But the offense in San Antonio is so dull and the ball sticks way too much. If you're not 'running' the possession, you seem to spend most of it standing on the wing watching. If they can just try to speed up and get more flow into their game, things should at least improve, even if the results don't get much better.

I agree that Plum doesn't look like she knows where or how she fits yet, but I don't think it's impossible for her to settle into this team and this roster. They just haven't done a very good job of making it happen yet.



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caune



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
A lot of this is why I thought Plum and Jefferson playing together this year might not be a bad thing. Ignoring the issues it creates on defense (where they suck anyway), they both have the ability to initiate and create offense, so they could take pressure off each other. We see this all over the League - Loyd runs possessions in Seattle, Hayes in Atlanta, Augustus/Moore in Minnesota and on and on. Multiple players who can create is a good thing.

But the offense in San Antonio is so dull and the ball sticks way too much. If you're not 'running' the possession, you seem to spend most of it standing on the wing watching. If they can just try to speed up and get more flow into their game, things should at least improve, even if the results don't get much better.

I agree that Plum doesn't look like she knows where or how she fits yet, but I don't think it's impossible for her to settle into this team and this roster. They just haven't done a very good job of making it happen yet.
Seems a Coaching issue to me.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 12:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

caune wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
A lot of this is why I thought Plum and Jefferson playing together this year might not be a bad thing. Ignoring the issues it creates on defense (where they suck anyway), they both have the ability to initiate and create offense, so they could take pressure off each other. We see this all over the League - Loyd runs possessions in Seattle, Hayes in Atlanta, Augustus/Moore in Minnesota and on and on. Multiple players who can create is a good thing.

But the offense in San Antonio is so dull and the ball sticks way too much. If you're not 'running' the possession, you seem to spend most of it standing on the wing watching. If they can just try to speed up and get more flow into their game, things should at least improve, even if the results don't get much better.

I agree that Plum doesn't look like she knows where or how she fits yet, but I don't think it's impossible for her to settle into this team and this roster. They just haven't done a very good job of making it happen yet.
Seems a Coaching issue to me.


The transition from assistant to head coach is often difficult. I remember all the Lynx fans who wanted to get rid of Cheryl Reeve when the team started badly in 2010.



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The transition from college to the WNBA is difficult. You are playing every night against the best athlets/players in the game and you are not the superstar anymore where you dictate everything the team does...Plum needs time just like Diggins and others did


justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 2:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
caune wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
A lot of this is why I thought Plum and Jefferson playing together this year might not be a bad thing. Ignoring the issues it creates on defense (where they suck anyway), they both have the ability to initiate and create offense, so they could take pressure off each other. We see this all over the League - Loyd runs possessions in Seattle, Hayes in Atlanta, Augustus/Moore in Minnesota and on and on. Multiple players who can create is a good thing.

But the offense in San Antonio is so dull and the ball sticks way too much. If you're not 'running' the possession, you seem to spend most of it standing on the wing watching. If they can just try to speed up and get more flow into their game, things should at least improve, even if the results don't get much better.

I agree that Plum doesn't look like she knows where or how she fits yet, but I don't think it's impossible for her to settle into this team and this roster. They just haven't done a very good job of making it happen yet.
Seems a Coaching issue to me.


The transition from assistant to head coach is often difficult. I remember all the Lynx fans who wanted to get rid of Cheryl Reeve when the team started badly in 2010.

Yeah, that was just stupid. As I noted at the time, the WNBA doesn’t exactly have a huge training camp. It will take time for a coach to be able to both instill their system and get the players to buy in. Not to mention getting them to actually execute it. With players coming in late from Europe how many full practices have teams had so far this season?



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tfan



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 2:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
And she was the #1 overall pick and the leading scorer in NCAA history. That player's going to be paid some attention, even if they haven't done anything in the League yet.


How does Plum hype compare to Stiles hype? I don't remember.


Stiles was known by aficionados due to her big scoring numbers, but the fact that she was a star at a rinky dink school in the Missouri Valley Conference limited her national recognition by the average fan. She did break out at the end of her senior season when she led a mid-major full of nobodies to the Final Four, vanquishing teams like Duke with Alana Beard along the way. But even after doing that, Jackie Stiles was only the 4th pick in the 2001 WNBA draft behind Lauren Jackson, Kelly Miller, and Tamika Catchings. I could be wrong, but I remember Jackson as the consensus #1 pick at the time. Maybe Catchings would have challenged for the #1 pick had she not blown out her knee her senior season.


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PostPosted: 06/11/17 3:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The WNBA is in the entertainment business.

The all-time NCAA leading scorer -- and a relatively attractive young woman -- is the first overall pick. On top of that, she's a perimeter player of average size who, presumably, many old and young fans can identify with. She is also, of course, white.

So you're the WNBA. Who would you promote?



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miller40



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The WNBA is in the entertainment business.

The all-time NCAA leading scorer -- and a relatively attractive young woman -- is the first overall pick. On top of that, she's a perimeter player of average size who, presumably, many old and young fans can identify with. She is also, of course, white.

So you're the WNBA. Who would you promote?


From San Antonio? McBride.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The WNBA is in the entertainment business.

The all-time NCAA leading scorer -- and a relatively attractive young woman -- is the first overall pick. On top of that, she's a perimeter player of average size who, presumably, many old and young fans can identify with. She is also, of course, white.

So you're the WNBA. Who would you promote?


From San Antonio? McBride.


You always promote the first overall pick. Im not saying she is the only one that you should promote but there is no reason why you should choose McBride who is coming off an injury and not Plum



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miller40



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
miller40 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The WNBA is in the entertainment business.

The all-time NCAA leading scorer -- and a relatively attractive young woman -- is the first overall pick. On top of that, she's a perimeter player of average size who, presumably, many old and young fans can identify with. She is also, of course, white.

So you're the WNBA. Who would you promote?


From San Antonio? McBride.


You always promote the first overall pick. Im not saying she is the only one that you should promote but there is no reason why you should choose McBride who is coming off an injury and not Plum


Lol ok. I mean, if I'm in charge of putting up SA game promos I'd promote a player actually performing well right now regardless of her coming off an injury.


Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 6:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The WNBA is in the entertainment business.

The all-time NCAA leading scorer -- and a relatively attractive young woman -- is the first overall pick. On top of that, she's a perimeter player of average size who, presumably, many old and young fans can identify with. She is also, of course, white.

So you're the WNBA. Who would you promote?


Are you saying that the league is always in search for the next GWH? Smile



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adamj95



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 6:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She's a rookie. Give her time. She's also the #1 pick playing under a coach who has AWFUL rotations and isn't playing her consistently.


toad455



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I do wonder how Plum would be doing if under a different coach & on a better team.



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calbearman76



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

While I believe it is safe to say that Kelsey Plum will not be an all-time great in the WNBA, it is too early to say that she will be an all-time bust either. I suspect she will wind up in the category with Ann Wauters, LaToya Thomas, Janel McCarville and Lindsay Harding as the least outstanding #1 picks, but in all these cases there was not another player that was demonstrably better at the time that showed over time that she was the wrong choice.

Ann Wauters was the best of a bad lot in 2000. She was an All-Star and had she chosen to play her whole career in the WNBA she may have been a real star, but there weren't any other options. The next best was Betty Lennox, and the only other All-Star from the draft was Adrian Williams. LaToya Thomas was never an All-Star, but the only All-Stars were Cheryl Ford, Plenette Piersen and Kara Lawson. In retrospect Cheryl Ford would have been a better choice, but at the time Ford was considered by some as a "reach". Janel McCarville was also a serviceable player but never an All-Star. The only All-Stars were Sancho Lyttle and Kara Braxton, but neither had a better career than McCarville. And Lindsay Harding was the best of the worst draft, where Ivory Latta was the only All-Star.

Kelsey Plum may still become a solid WNBA player, and could even become an All-Star, but even now it is hard to say who among the 2017 class would have been a better choice or if there will be an All-Star in the group. Alaina Coates may have been better, but she got hurt before the draft, not during training camp. This was a bad draft and Plum got hurt during training camp which has slowed her progress. She also got drafted by the wrong team, one that needed front court help and who believed they could get a little more value if they were to exercise a trade, but it didn't work out as they had hoped.

Don't hate on Plum for this and don't blame this on race. Plum is charismatic in the same way as Skyler Diggins, but Diggins was not EDD or Britney Griner and appropriately went third in the draft, even though she was not deserving of being one of the "3 to see." Plum was a great college ball player and could still be a good WNBA player. It is time to wait and see.


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PostPosted: 06/11/17 10:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SAS lineups and player rotations are beyond belief in my opinion. Putting bench players in the starting lineup with a rookie PG like Plum is a recipe for disaster if there ever was one. VJ's actions are so unlike the coaches he played for are amazing. I could hardly believe my eyes when he put Colson in at a crucial point at the end of the game. I guess she is truly committed to using all 12 players as she told one of the announcers.


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PostPosted: 06/11/17 10:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
...Janel McCarville was also a serviceable player but never an All-Star. The only All-Stars were Sancho Lyttle and Kara Braxton, but neither had a better career than McCarville...


What? Sancho Lyttle didn't have a better career than Janel McCarville? Based on what, the fact that McCarville rode Maya Moore's coattails to a ring? McCarville has a higher career field goal percentage, and that's it. I can't think of one other aspect of basketball in which Janel McCarville was better than Sancho Lyttle.



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PostPosted: 06/11/17 11:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
I never thought Plum was a good fit with SA.However,I believe Plum's struggles has more to do with her ankle,lack of fitness,timing,and VJ inconsistent rotations.Plum had a great preseason game 19p/5a/0to...then all of a sudden,she gets hurt.The ankle injury took away Plum's momentum,rhythm,and confidence.She's become tentative on offense,and has no real chemistry with her teammates.What Plum needs is steady minutes in a consistent rotation.Not 25 minutes one night,then 10 minutes the next.VJ's main concern should be developing SA young players,not winning basketball games.Acquiring Desouza,and not trading Currie was stupid imo........Plum,Coffey,and Harrison should all be playing 20+ minutes a game.......Plum will be fine.


I've said before that I thought her time in games was too off and on and for awhile her teammates, mainly Currie, was not giving her the ball. Maybe her ankle is not up to par since she had such a good preseason game. Many of the draft picks behind her have been playing longer minutes. Even after her ankle got better she still wasn't getting many minures. Give her some time and more minutes then she will probably show what she has. She can't be that bad since she was the leading scorer in college. If SA was not wanting to use her they should not have picked her. The cemistry with the team members could me a problem as well. I remember in one game as Plum was walking away Currie gave her quite a look of distain. It was said that SA didn't want her and that may be true since they couldn't trade her. It might have been better for her if she had sat out and reentered the draft next year.


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PostPosted: 06/12/17 12:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:
...Janel McCarville was also a serviceable player but never an All-Star. The only All-Stars were Sancho Lyttle and Kara Braxton, but neither had a better career than McCarville...


What? Sancho Lyttle didn't have a better career than Janel McCarville? Based on what, the fact that McCarville rode Maya Moore's coattails to a ring? McCarville has a higher career field goal percentage, and that's it. I can't think of one other aspect of basketball in which Janel McCarville was better than Sancho Lyttle.


Being the best post passer in the WNBA. Being a starting center on two Lynx teams that won 26 and 25 games. Winning a WNBA title.


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PostPosted: 06/12/17 12:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Angus24 wrote:
SAS lineups and player rotations are beyond belief in my opinion. Putting bench players in the starting lineup with a rookie PG like Plum is a recipe for disaster if there ever was one. VJ's actions are so unlike the coaches he played for are amazing. I could hardly believe my eyes when he put Colson in at a crucial point at the end of the game. I guess she is truly committed to using all 12 players as she told one of the announcers.


VJ has provided numerous WTF moments already this season. I guess she's trying to be a 'player's' coach by playing everybody but it all seems pretty random. Yeah, when she put Colson in there at a critical time, I did a double take too. She didn't leave her in long, but still it seemed like an amazing gaffe. All you need is a couple of those, and boom, you lose another close game.

I would like to see the 'go little' lineup in some cases with MoJeff, Plum, KMac - if Phoenix can play DRob, FLB, and DT together successfully then it can be done. I'd like to see her start her best players - MoJeff, KMac, and Mo but also give Plum some minutes with two of them as well. The random shuffling of players in and out is just crazy. I think bringing Mo and MoJeff off the bench just makes them sullen and resentful. Neither look like they're enjoying playing all that much, which is too bad. And Plum looks out of sync and uncomfortable as well. Some of that has gotta be the coach. Which is too bad. I've always like VJ.



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 12:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree SA should experiment with the go little and go younger line up, maybe even see if they can make the small ball and shooters thing that is getting popular work for them. Run, Shoot, Develop. Maybe something like

start Jefferson, Plum, McBride, Hamby, Harrison

Shorten the rotation, have Currie back up the perimeter 1/2 and some 3, Coffey the 3/4 and Alexander the 5

use De Souza, Colson and Dos Santos sparingly.

I might go a step further and see if a mid to top team would be interested in Currie or De Souza for some veteran depth. Dallas and Seattle (if Swords continues to flounder) need some size maybe a 2nd round pick for De Souza? Would LA trade for a little more size, they would probably have to move one of their more expensive contracts? Could Washington afford Currie, they need a little more scoring at the 3 would a 2nd round pick be enough, would Latta be a better veteran influence if swapped to SA? When Vaughn comes back would Zahui B and a 2nd round pick for Currie be a good move for both SA and NY?


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PostPosted: 06/12/17 7:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:

I might go a step further and see if a mid to top team would be interested in Currie or De Souza for some veteran depth. Dallas and Seattle (if Swords continues to flounder) need some size maybe a 2nd round pick for De Souza?


Swords for Erika+something else, though I would rather do Morello for Erika, once her foot is better. Seattle really ought to deal Swords soon before her market value drops to zero.


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PostPosted: 06/12/17 10:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:
Being the best post passer in the WNBA.

Better than peak Candace Parker? I'd question that.

Quote:
Being a starting center on two Lynx teams that won 26 and 25 games. Winning a WNBA title.

Congratulations; that makes her the Andrew Bogut of the WNBA. Anybody who tried to make the claim that Andrew Bogut had a better career than Marc Gasol would get summarily laughed at.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 10:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

adamj95 wrote:
Being a starting center on two Lynx teams that won 26 and 25 games. Winning a WNBA title.


A "starter" who played 22 minutes/game. She was splitting time Devereaux Peters. McCarville only started because of Our Girls Syndrome.



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PostPosted: 06/12/17 11:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Does anyone remember how awful Diggins was as a rookie? Sometimes it takes a while. One of the main things Plum needs to work on is her core strength, just to live with the athletes at this level. Diggins had the same issue, and it's going to take some time.

Which isn't to say that she won't be a bust. Just that declaring her a bust already is kinda crazy and unfair.


Yeah skylar had a rough rookie season but her team was horrible in Tulsa . I do verbatim remember her saying "I had to get a grown woman body for a grown woman's league"



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