View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 06/08/17 6:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Because she's frustrated that no one is giving her favorite team the vastly inflated deference she erroneously believes is due.
I'm still trying to figure out how SCar for the first time joining the rather large club of 40+ schools that have been to the final four (a semi final, not a final, by the way) is supposed to explain the Davis and Gray transfers a month later.
I didn't see a flood of blue chip transfers the next year to Syracuse when they went to the title game or to UDub and OreSt when they, like SCar the year before, made their first FFs. Why didn't Davis and Gray choose UConn, ND or Maryland, each of which was also in the 2015 FF and each of which had one hell of a lot more impressive record of success. So going to their first final four ever doesn't seem to explain it, and it seems those asking why SCar has seen this parade of transfers might still have a point. Just stomping one's foot and repeating "it's because everybody loves a winner" doesn't explain it at all.
|
|
cattekin
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Posts: 252 Location: San Mateo, Calif.
Back to top |
Posted: 06/08/17 8:04 pm ::: Re: Anna Hammaker leaves Kansas State |
Reply |
|
summertime blues wrote: |
Is she going home to Tennessee, or staying at KSU? The article doesn't say? I assume she plans to graduate from college somewhere. |
She's "excited about where the Lord leads [her] next."
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11193
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 9:35 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.
And by the way, I see nothing wrong with it. If Staley and staff work harder than other coaches in this way, more power to them ...
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4071
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 10:32 am ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.
And by the way, I see nothing wrong with it. If Staley and staff work harder than other coaches in this way, more power to them ... |
You find nothing wrong with indirectly recruiting players already in other programs? Isn't that presently against the rules?
Plus if you agree that it's copacetic for players to transfer without penalty (a point you argue vociferously), the combination of these two beliefs would greatly undermine coaches' attempts to build a cohesive and balanced team. Coaches would be forced to poach players from other teams to compensate for their own transfer losses. Did you think this through?
|
|
#Occasionalwnbafan
Joined: 01 Mar 2012 Posts: 1380
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 11:05 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Davis and Gray are from Georgia, maybe they wanted a chance to win and stay close to home, Dawn is in on some pretty good players in the 2018 class, and they dominate the SEC. Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated, I still feel like it was her swagger that took her team to battle vs Uconn and beat them a few times which made people think ND was the 2nd best program in the nation, but IMO Muffet is GROSSLY overrated, she's not a great in game decision coach, and her player development has been pretty lack luster to say the least. |
|
Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4071
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 11:47 am ::: |
Reply |
|
#Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
Davis and Gray are from Georgia, maybe they wanted a chance to win and stay close to home, Dawn is in on some pretty good players in the 2018 class, and they dominate the SEC. Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated, I still feel like it was her swagger that took her team to battle vs Uconn and beat them a few times which made people think ND was the 2nd best program in the nation, but IMO Muffet is GROSSLY overrated, she's not a great in game decision coach, and her player development has been pretty lack luster to say the least. |
Notre Dame didn't do much since Diggins graduated? In those four seasons, they have made the national championship game twice and had a record of 139-10, second only to UConn. South Carolina won the National Championship last season, but their other finishes the past 4 seasons included a loss to Notre Dame in the FF and 2 losses in the Sweet 16. Their record those 4 years was 129-14. Notre Dame has disappointed the past 2 seasons, but remember that last season they were the second-seeded 1-seed and their fate was sealed when Brianna Turner, their only effective presence down low, was lost to an ACL injury in the second round of the NCAA tournament. They blew out Ohio State in the Sweet 16 before losing their Elite game to Stanford by 1 point.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 2819 Location: Indiana
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 12:02 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
#Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
Davis and Gray are from Georgia, maybe they wanted a chance to win and stay close to home, Dawn is in on some pretty good players in the 2018 class, and they dominate the SEC. Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated, I still feel like it was her swagger that took her team to battle vs Uconn and beat them a few times which made people think ND was the 2nd best program in the nation, but IMO Muffet is GROSSLY overrated, she's not a great in game decision coach, and her player development has been pretty lack luster to say the least. |
Notre Dame didn't do much since Diggins graduated? In those four seasons, they have made the national championship game twice and had a record of 139-10, second only to UConn. South Carolina won the National Championship last season, but their other finishes the past 4 seasons included a loss to Notre Dame in the FF and 2 losses in the Sweet 16. Their record those 4 years was 129-14. Notre Dame has disappointed the past 2 seasons, but remember that last season they were the second-seeded 1-seed and their fate was sealed when Brianna Turner, their only effective presence down low, was lost to an ACL injury in the second round of the NCAA tournament. They blew out Ohio State in the Sweet 16 before losing their Elite game to Stanford by 1 point. |
Yeah, I'm clearly not a ND fan and I had to chuckle at the "haven't done much since Diggins graduated" comment. I mean, clearly they have been horrible.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 12:09 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved. |
So it sounds like you're in the WNBA09 camp that assumes Dawn's cheating.
|
|
#Occasionalwnbafan
Joined: 01 Mar 2012 Posts: 1380
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 12:16 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
#Occasionalwnbafan wrote: |
Other then dominating a top heavy ACC, ND hasn't done much since Diggins graduated. . . . . . |
. . . .other than play in two NCAA title games, which no other team except UConn has done in that four year period.
And I'm glad you've decided that going 62-2 in conference while winning four regular season and four ACC Tournament titles is so insignificant.
As an aside Notre Dame finished #2 to UConn's #1 in the final AP poll in each of the four post-Diggins years during which they were "not doing much". Unfortunately in two of those four years they lost their center to a knee injury midway through the tournament. First Achonwa in 2014 and this year Turner. Turner's injury being one of South Carolina's several lucky breaks last April.
Any more alternative facts you'd like to share with us, Donald? |
You mad or nah? please pick up a book and learn how to READ! |
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11193
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 1:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
I don't know much about the situation in South Carolina, but my guess would be this: Dawn and staff never stop recruiting, even after players are in college. It obviously isn't direct recruiting, but it would seem to me that the only way players consistently make that decision is if there's some effort involved.
And by the way, I see nothing wrong with it. If Staley and staff work harder than other coaches in this way, more power to them ... |
You find nothing wrong with indirectly recruiting players already in other programs? Isn't that presently against the rules?
Plus if you agree that it's copacetic for players to transfer without penalty (a point you argue vociferously), the combination of these two beliefs would greatly undermine coaches' attempts to build a cohesive and balanced team. Coaches would be forced to poach players from other teams to compensate for their own transfer losses. Did you think this through? |
To me, it just means coaches have to work harder, and I have no problem with that.
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped).
Coaches and colleges have too much power once a player signs a NLI, and anything that gives players more freedom is a good thing. If coaches are forced to treat their players with more respect and more honestly because of a threat that some other coach will treat them better, I have no problem at all.
Will some players make bad choices? Of course -- but the less "my way or the highway" coaching we get, the better off the players are, and isn't this system supposed to be built around the players' experience and education?
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15755 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 3:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped). |
Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11193
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 5:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped). |
Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another. |
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?
Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not?
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 6:40 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?
Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not? |
For the simple reason that children, players, or employees can't always get their own way. Demanding that a parent, coach, or boss cater to every demand is absurd. You can't run a household, team, or business like that.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11193
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 7:49 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?
Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not? |
For the simple reason that children, players, or employees can't always get their own way. Demanding that a parent, coach, or boss cater to every demand is absurd. You can't run a household, team, or business like that. |
Of course they can't always get their own way. But workers can take another job, which is precisely what we're talking about. Why can't a player take a job at a different company? And why can't a boss at a different company offer that player a job?
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 06/09/17 9:52 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?
Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not? |
For the simple reason that children, players, or employees can't always get their own way. Demanding that a parent, coach, or boss cater to every demand is absurd. You can't run a household, team, or business like that. |
Of course they can't always get their own way. But workers can take another job, which is precisely what we're talking about. Why can't a player take a job at a different company? And why can't a boss at a different company offer that player a job? |
So, as I've said, give them the same rights to pick their own team and to move as pro players.
This notion that the whole rest of the world can pack up and move on whim is ridiculous. If you work taking orders at McDonalds, sure, nobody cares if you change jobs. But if you have a more serious job, there are usually restrictions. And there are severe restrictions on pro athletes.
|
|
LitePal
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 613
Back to top |
Posted: 06/10/17 10:30 am ::: |
Reply |
|
UW's Aarion McDonald to transfer. Huskies lose all three top scorers from last season. McDonald might transfer to USC to play under Trakh, which is interesting because the Wynns are Trakh disciples. If this comes about Trakh will have the Moores and McDonald, which is pretty impressive.
https://twitter.com/Raoul_000/status/873331419631820802
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15755 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 06/10/17 12:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
The only reason coaches would have to poach players is if they lose players because they don't treat them well ... (which is one of the negatives of the transfer restrictions -- players feel trapped). |
Nononono. There's a TON of reasons a coach might want to poach players, if they could. "Treat them well"?? That's hugely subjective....many a prima-donna might believe she's not "treated well' just cuz her playing time has diminished, etc. Actual and real mistreatment is one thing, but kids' whims are often quite another. |
And what difference does it make if we think, or the coach thinks, that the player is being treated well if the player doesn't? If you're not being treated well, in your mind, at work, and someone else offers you a job, wouldn't you take the opportunity to be treated more to your liking?
Why shouldn't a player have that option? And why shouldn't another potential employer have an opportunity to make that case?
Who are we, or worse, the NCAA, to determine whether a young person is being treated fairly or not? |
Apples and Oranges.
First of all, let me state that I do NOT think transfers should be forbidden. I DO think there needs to be parameters that include consequences meant to make one think hard, and not just do it on mere whim.
But. All of Life is not one big Free Agency. The privilege AND responsibility that go with that concept are not inherent. Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that.
Should government (NCAA?) have that right? I mean, ya, that's not EXACTLY the same (is it?) but the principles are parallel.
And unlike most child/parent relationships where little or no choice was involved in the initial *placement* process, college kids go through a kind of vetting procedure, where the coach/school/kid get to assess each other, AND then decide to commit or not. All parties owe each other, to some degree---if not utterly undying commitment, at least some consideration as to what impact a 'separation' will inflict.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
Back to top |
|
brunie1064
Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 106
Back to top |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7863 Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11193
Back to top |
Posted: 06/11/17 3:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Quote: |
Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that. |
Maybe this is the issue.
An 18-year-old is not an 8-year-old. An 18-year-old can vote. An 18-year-old can carry a gun in Afghanistan. An 18-year-old is responsible for her own decisions.
And of course most of these players are closer to 20.
They are not children. They should not be treated as such.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 06/11/17 6:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
Quote: |
Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that. |
Maybe this is the issue.
An 18-year-old is not an 8-year-old. An 18-year-old can vote. An 18-year-old can carry a gun in Afghanistan. An 18-year-old is responsible for her own decisions.
And of course most of these players are closer to 20.
They are not children. They should not be treated as such. |
Yeah, treat 'em like adults. Like when they're 22 and are told "if you want to play in the WNBA you will play for team X, unless of course team X decides to trade you whenever they feel like it to team Z. And no, you do not have any choice to move to another city or team. You can't pick your team, you can't pick your coach, you can't pick your teammates, you can't pick your climate, you can't pick your distance from home or friends. You will have no say for many years, if ever, in where you will play. Take it or leave it. And by the way, your compensation for the next several years will be less than what it was in college the last four years. And no, that's not negotiable either."
Yeah, treat 'em like adults. Yeah, that's a great idea.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15755 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 06/11/17 9:09 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
Quote: |
Clay, you have kids? What do you think if your 8 year old decides he wants different PARENTS? Now, even if he's a brat, and YOU don't mind 'trading' him in, there are actual laws that prevent that. |
Maybe this is the issue.
An 18-year-old is not an 8-year-old. An 18-year-old can vote. An 18-year-old can carry a gun in Afghanistan. An 18-year-old is responsible for her own decisions.
And of course most of these players are closer to 20.
They are not children. They should not be treated as such. |
Yeah, treat 'em like adults. Like when they're 22 and are told "if you want to play in the WNBA you will play for team X, unless of course team X decides to trade you whenever they feel like it to team Z. And no, you do not have any choice to move to another city or team. You can't pick your team, you can't pick your coach, you can't pick your teammates, you can't pick your climate, you can't pick your distance from home or friends. You will have no say for many years, if ever, in where you will play. |
Unless......you're Elena Delle Donne. Or Sylvia Fowles. Or Cappie Pondexter.* Wait....
Exceptions aside, I must agree with Art here: 99.8% of the kids we're talking about will never have those negotiating options in their Adult Reality.
Regarding the differences/similarities between the ages of kids, I PROMISE you, mentally and emotionally, an 18-year-old is far more like an 8-year old than they are like a 28-year-old.
*Even these stars respected their draft commitments at 22, no questions asked.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
|
|