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Transfers--REALLY good article!
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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/27/17 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
I'm sentimental. I miss players who leave and I'm sorry to lose them.


A fair point, but if you miss them, presumably you have good feelings for them -- and if they feel they would be happier somewhere else, wouldn't you want that for them?



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 05/27/17 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Using your logic, carried further, why couldn't a player play 2 weeks one place, then go someplace else for a month, then move on to a third school all in the same year because she might be happier that way?



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/27/17 8:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They should probably have all the rights of pro players.

Oh, you mean they should have no say in what college they can attend/play for. Whatever school "picks" them owns them?

You mean that no matter how much they like it where they are, they can be traded and have to go to another school a thousand miles from home that they don't like?

Can get hit with a franchise tag/core designation and be prohibited from moving?

Restricted free agency, long term contracts, non-negotiable rookie contracts, etc., etc., etc.

Yeah, college players have it so unfair. Laughing Laughing Laughing Rolling Eyes


tfan



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PostPosted: 05/27/17 11:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Using your logic, carried further, why couldn't a player play 2 weeks one place, then go someplace else for a month, then move on to a third school all in the same year because she might be happier that way?


Invalid hypothetical as schools don't allow it. You have to transfer at the beginning of a semester. You could say why not allow someone to transfer mid-season with no penalty, though. But the receiving schools would probably not be as open to getting transfers (who were going to be able to play right away) mid-season.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 2:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Using your logic, carried further, why couldn't a player play 2 weeks one place, then go someplace else for a month, then move on to a third school all in the same year because she might be happier that way?


Invalid hypothetical as schools don't allow it. You have to transfer at the beginning of a semester. You could say why not allow someone to transfer mid-season with no penalty, though. But the receiving schools would probably not be as open to getting transfers (who were going to be able to play right away) mid-season.


and the ncaa doesn't allow transfers without the sitting out a year so that is also an invalid hypothetical...



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 8:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A major point is that professional athletes have a union that negotiates the contract the players sign.

College athletes must sign an agreement they have had no say in. A college coach, on the other hand, can negotiate a contract that, say, doesn't have a buy-out if she takes less money up front, or vice versa. She does not have the contract imposed on her without any recourse.

For college athletes, it's similar to pro sports prior to free agency, when the team that first signed a baseball player had his rights in perpetuity and the player had to accept whatever contract the team offered. (And the howls that free agency would doom sports were a trifle overblown ...)

To put it another way: If the interested parties sat around a table and negotiated a contract for incoming college players to sign, then it would be a different situation. As it is, the most important part of the industry -- the players -- have no input into their compensation in an industry that generates billions of dollars a year.

It is hard for me to see that as an equitable situation.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 9:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
A major point is that professional athletes have a union that negotiates the contract the players sign.

College athletes must sign an agreement they have had no say in. A college coach, on the other hand, can negotiate a contract that, say, doesn't have a buy-out if she takes less money up front, or vice versa. She does not have the contract imposed on her without any recourse.

For college athletes, it's similar to pro sports prior to free agency, when the team that first signed a baseball player had his rights in perpetuity and the player had to accept whatever contract the team offered. (And the howls that free agency would doom sports were a trifle overblown ...)

To put it another way: If the interested parties sat around a table and negotiated a contract for incoming college players to sign, then it would be a different situation. As it is, the most important part of the industry -- the players -- have no input into their compensation in an industry that generates billions of dollars a year.

It is hard for me to see that as an equitable situation.


Not a single person who has ever been drafted or handed a non-negotiable take it or leave it rookie contract in any sport has ever had any say in "negotiating" those things. What a completely phony argument.

Do you seriously believe current union members are negotiating hard for the best interests of people who aren't in the union? Giving up things that benefit themselves in return for benefits for non-members? It's just like when unions negotiate reduced pay and benefits applicable only to new hires. "Hey, it doesn't hurt us!". I'm sure it makes those new hires feel so much better that the screw job they're about to receive was negotiated for them by their soon-to-be co-workers.

Besides, the drafts existed long long before there were any player unions.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 05/28/17 10:02 am; edited 3 times in total
myrtle



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 9:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:


As it is, the most important part of the industry -- the players -- have no input into their compensation in an industry that generates billions of dollars a year.



You may have a point for football in particular and perhaps men's bball in power five, but not for women's sports, most of which lose money... quite a lot of money.

On the other hand, how many workers at Intel sit down and negotiate their compensation? They're in an industry that generates billions of dollars a year. And if they are in the top x% who can negotiate, they probably also have a non-compete clause that lasts a lot longer than one year.

And student athletes do have that same choice. They can choose to accept the money and the education in exchange for playing a sport and abiding by the rules, or not do that and pay their own way through school or just go out and get a job at the grocery store where they may or may not join a union.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 10:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote



Most people in America don't get to negotiate the terms of their employment, individually or collectively.


Matt5762



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 10:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:

On the other hand, how many workers at Intel sit down and negotiate their compensation?


90%? At least of men...women, surely less, one of the primary causes of all the equal work, equal pay issues.

I do find it odd that among non-revenue sports, women's basketball is singled out. Ostensibly it's not much different than volleyball, soccer, etc. in terms of revenue, fan support, odds of going pro, etc. These other sports also have transfers but there is certainly no epidemic because athletes don't have to sit out.

I also find it odd that the "penalty" for transferring is an extra year of free education. It seems few think like this, but basically to maximize your scholarship benefit, it's necessary to transfer (and/or get injured).

So, it's only sensible to go to the best basketball school you can for 2 or 3 years then transfer and get 2 degrees from a school whose paper is more valuable. Sadly, it seems so many do the exact opposite.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 10:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BTW, the WNBA has the most restrictive rules on turning pro of any pro sports league.

You think the WNBA players union was really looking out for the best interest of college kids when they negotiated those restrictions?

Or were they looking out for themselves by restricting the competition for
Iimited roster spots from young superstars?

I bet if you're Diamond DeShields you're thinking to yourself "Wow that was nice of the players union to make sure I can't turn pro for four years. I didn't have any say in it, but I'm sure glad someone​ else is looking out for my interests.". Rolling Eyes


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Matt5762 wrote:
These other sports also have transfers but there is certainly no epidemic because athletes don't have to sit out.



Huh? Please explain the cause and effect here.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Matt5762 wrote:
myrtle wrote:

On the other hand, how many workers at Intel sit down and negotiate their compensation?


90%? At least of men...women, surely less, one of the primary causes of all the equal work, equal pay issues.



No. You're thinking of management. And those are the ones with non-competes as part of their contracts. I used Intel as an example randomly but I worked parttime as a regular 'worker' for intel while going to school. Those folks (including me) definitely had no choice in anything other than choosing to work for whatever pay was offered or to quit. I went to work at midnight because in those days, you got time and 1/2 to work the night shift. (and who needs sleep at that age anyway Wink )



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tfan



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 1:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
tfan wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Using your logic, carried further, why couldn't a player play 2 weeks one place, then go someplace else for a month, then move on to a third school all in the same year because she might be happier that way?


Invalid hypothetical as schools don't allow it. You have to transfer at the beginning of a semester. You could say why not allow someone to transfer mid-season with no penalty, though. But the receiving schools would probably not be as open to getting transfers (who were going to be able to play right away) mid-season.


and the ncaa doesn't allow transfers without the sitting out a year so that is also an invalid hypothetical...


The difference is the NCAA could allow it, there is no issue as far as practicality. It is entirely possible, they just choose not to as "punishment". Whereas transferring mid-semester is not done and not practical because there is all the classes and assignments that were missed. I don't think there are any colleges that let you enroll mid-semester and it is highly unlikely that there ever will be.


tfan



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 1:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:


Bingo. And it's not unique to athletes.

Hillary Clinton was the commencement speaker at her alma mater, Wellesley, today. Among other things she said that a month after arrival, she was unhappy, and thought she couldn't make it there. "My father said okay, come home. My mother said you have to stick it out. That's what happened to me."

It was all temporary. Her mother was right. College is supposed to be a learning experience, and part of that might be learning that life isn't all about instant gratification.


The vast majority of college sports transfer requests don't occur during the first month of school. You also learn a lot by transferring.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 2:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Bingo. And it's not unique to athletes.

Hillary Clinton was the commencement speaker at her alma mater, Wellesley, today. Among other things she said that a month after arrival, she was unhappy, and thought she couldn't make it there. "My father said okay, come home. My mother said you have to stick it out. That's what happened to me."

It was all temporary. Her mother was right. College is supposed to be a learning experience, and part of that might be learning that life isn't all about instant gratification.


The vast majority of college sports transfer requests don't occur during the first month of school.

No, they happen after the first semester or year.

tfan wrote:
You also learn a lot by transferring.


I love totally unexplained, unsupported, made-up-out-of-thin-air assertions.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/28/17 5:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
You also learn a lot by transferring.


Just curious if you've ever transferred as an undergrad?


tfan



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PostPosted: 05/29/17 6:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
tfan wrote:
You also learn a lot by transferring.


Just curious if you've ever transferred as an undergrad?


Yes.


tfan



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PostPosted: 05/29/17 6:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Bingo. And it's not unique to athletes.

Hillary Clinton was the commencement speaker at her alma mater, Wellesley, today. Among other things she said that a month after arrival, she was unhappy, and thought she couldn't make it there. "My father said okay, come home. My mother said you have to stick it out. That's what happened to me."

It was all temporary. Her mother was right. College is supposed to be a learning experience, and part of that might be learning that life isn't all about instant gratification.


The vast majority of college sports transfer requests don't occur during the first month of school.

No, they happen after the first semester or year.


Normally after the first or second year. And if Hillary Rodham had told her mother she wanted to transfer at either the end of the first or second year, I don't think Momma Rodham would have told her she couldn't do it. And I doubt that she would have refused to let her transfer at the end of the first semester. Homesickness or doubts in the first month of school is not the same as realizing you can't stand your coach, or that they can't stand you, or that your chances of ever starting or being in the rotation are slim - in addition to the reasons that non-athletes also have for transferring.

Quote:

tfan wrote:
You also learn a lot by transferring.


I love totally unexplained, unsupported, made-up-out-of-thin-air assertions.


You said,"College is supposed to be a learning experience, and part of that might be learning that life isn't all about instant gratification." This was right after mentioning, Hillary Clinton said she was glad she didn't transfer after an unhappy first month. Allisha Gray and Kaela Davis just said they were glad they did transfer. Therefore, however, you want to say your statement was intentioned, it works with Gray and Davis and transferring as much as it does for Clinton and not transferring.


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