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Muffet: Is she a choker who is now losing it?

 
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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/16/17 12:22 pm    ::: Muffet: Is she a choker who is now losing it? Reply Reply with quote

Who is more liked, more Teflon and less criticized than the famously crouched, leather- and leopard-skirted grande dame of Notre Dame. Muffet McGraw is almost universally praised, even by competitors, as a great coach, great recruiter, great player developer, great game tactician, great person. She's about to be inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame.

However, can we be so uncouth as to discuss some contrary evidence, such as:

-- Her only national championship in 2001 was luckily occasioned by a monumental collapse by UConn in the semifinal game and a last minute nail-biter over Purdue in the final.

-- Before and ever since that win, Muffet in the Big Dance has lost and lost and lost and lost and lost and lost and lost and lost -- too many times to remember. Perhaps we can analyze how many times she has lost as the favorite. Different players, different teams, same coach, same losing result. In basketball parlance, isn't that commonly called choking?

-- Recently, there also seems to be an increasing trend of players simply disappearing from the team, transferring or graduating early.

-- Muffet didn't recruit any 2017 player in the HoopGurlz top 29, her lone McDonald AA recruit this season had zero points, rebounds and assists in the Burger Game, and her 2017 recruiting class doesn't appear in Prospect Nation's top 60.

-- Muffet's coaching staff seems embalmed in nepotistic ingrown-tonenail-ism, never changing or being refreshed. Though it hasn't been adequately analyzed, Geno Auriemma went on his recent tear of six national championships in eight years at about the same time as he replaced two very long time assistant coaches.

Is Muffet losing it?
Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 04/16/17 3:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hehe, Glenn, I am about to take cover for you but that is a lot of losing Wink


tfan



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PostPosted: 04/16/17 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

With regard to her not getting any top recruits this year, she may have realized that she had too many already. But if so, it was a little late, as two transferred at the end of the year anyway.

With regard to her "choking", how many seasons was Notre Dame ranked #1 at the end of the year (and ideally for most of the year)? If they have achieved that, it was not anywhere near as many times as you used "lost". They lost Achonwa during the tournament in a year they may have been #1. The one tournament loss I would criticize is Texas A&M in that Danielle Adams was doing too much repeated damage in the low block.

And why doesn't she get credit for winning it all in 2001 with a team that wasn't #1? They spanked UConn in the second half. Seems too convenient to give the credit for that to Auriemma. And speaking of Auriemma, he has probably taken a #1 team into the tournament and LOST more than anybody. So what if the Notre Dame win over Purdue was close - Purdue had a lot of talent that year. And McGraw didn't have a "UConn amount" of talent. Ruth Riley and Niele Ivy were the only two future WNBA players and Ivy's career was short.

There is also the phenomenon of getting the most out of your players all the time and over-achieving, but not being able to go much higher in the post-season when the superior athletes all turn it up to your level.


Lillian Hidgepork



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PostPosted: 04/16/17 7:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

2001 was 16 years ago. Just saying.


tfan



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PostPosted: 04/16/17 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lillian Hidgepork wrote:
2001 was 16 years ago. Just saying.


1992 was 25 years ago. Long time since Tara VanDerveer won a title.

But, the NCAA winner is usually stocked wth talent. South Carolina had 3 WNBA first rounders this year. UConn had 3 WNBA first rounders last year. So Tara and Muffet may just need to get more WNBA first rounders to play for them.


acsuc99



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 2:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How many times was the MUFF the favorite to win?

2011 they "upset" UConn than lost a close game to A&M. I guess you can get on her for not finishing the job but just look at how Mississippi State had nothing left in the tank after beating UConn in the semis. And it's not like A&M was chopped liver as they had knocked out the 2 favorites that year Baylor and Stanford.

2012 was Baylor or Bust. Still, the Muff should have been more competitive.

Probably in 2013 after Baylor got knocked out they were the favorite but even than the basketball dynamic was working against her. UConn had choked away 3 games to ND that year making it near impossible for ND to beat them 4 times in one year.

2014 after Achowa went out UConn was going to win. (Although ND's horrific 2nd half cannot be dismissed).

2015 UConn was the clear favorite and ND put up a good game.

2016 and 2017 they lost to decent Stanford teams but certainly should have won.

It does seem they may be on course to take a step back. I don't see a Diggins or McBride or Jewell coming in.

I also think it's dumb as hell to discredit their 2001 win as UConn collapsing. They collapsed because ND came out in the 2nd half and took their lunch money. Like they did in South Bend. ND had taken control of the game before the 10 min mark of the 2nd half. Games last I checked are 40 mins. UConn fans like to inflate that 2001 team based on the roster. But as a season ticket holder 2000-2002, that team never gelled like the 2000 and 2002 teams it was sandwiched between. Probably due to Abrosimova and Taurasi not exactly being the best of friends. ND should have beaten UConn 3 times that year.


snzuluz



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 8:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You could say the same at Duke for lots of losses at the big moment...their teams went to MANY final fours at did not come home with the trophy...

Coaches do not make the shots, miss the 2 foot shots, get rebounds, or make the FT's...many of the choke jobs belong to the players at ND and Duke over the years...


Lillian Hidgepork



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am not saying anything about Stanford. I am only saying 16 years is a long time. Only team that has any room to talk is South Carolina, who are the current champs and UCONN.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have to say, I had never really looked at Muffet in that regard. I still consider her among the very best in her profession though.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 11:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Lillian Hidgepork wrote:
2001 was 16 years ago. Just saying.


1992 was 25 years ago. Long time since Tara VanDerveer won a title.


Tara was my runner-up for this topic.

The tournament losing at issue is not simply the failure to win the NC. It's losing games at any round of the tournament that could have been won. Muffet has been in 26 post-season tournaments since 1989 and won one, closely.

What we don't have is a list of who was favored in the 25 tournament-ending games that Muffet lost. That would help confirm or reject the tournament choker label.
willtalk



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 11:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The quality of coaches now is much better than it was in the past. Coaches like Muffet, Tara and Pat didn't have much competition in either the post season or recruiting. Since title Nine and the increase in WCBB coaches salaries more than just ex womens college players have applied for jobs. There are a lot of really good coaches in WCBB today. Geno was just the first of the new wave of coaches. Hey even really bad coaches like Stringer were successful back then.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 1:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Which leads back to this point: How important is a six-game single-elimination tournament in comparison to a 30-game season?



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 1:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Since some conferences are less competitive than others, a tournament is very important. What am I missing here?



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Which leads back to this point: How important is a six-game single-elimination tournament in comparison to a 30-game season?


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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 4:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
The quality of coaches now is much better than it was in the past. Coaches like Muffet, Tara and Pat didn't have much competition in either the post season or recruiting. Since title Nine and the increase in WCBB coaches salaries more than just ex womens college players have applied for jobs. There are a lot of really good coaches in WCBB today. Geno was just the first of the new wave of coaches. Hey even really bad coaches like Stringer were successful back then.


Title IX was enacted in 1972, long before Muffett or Tara began coaching.

Geno started coaching the same year as Tara which was before Muffett began, so if he's part of a "new wave", so are they.

You need a new theory. And this time start with some actual facts.


snlMINAJ



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

if uconn was favored in 2001 i am shook.
they lost 2 senior AAs in the second half of the season, but as a loaded roster they lost to ND earlier in the year.. how was ND underdog? cuz they lost on a buzzer beater in BE finals?


UK1996



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PostPosted: 04/17/17 10:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Every coach not named Geno Auriemma would kill to have Muffet's NCAA tournament record the last 7 years, or her record overall. Tom Izzo is regarded as one of the best men's basketball coaches today but only had one championship. People act like it's a cakewalk to win a national championship. It's tough no matter how much talent you have. Muffet is one of the top 3 coaches, coaching today.



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ridor



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PostPosted: 04/18/17 2:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm certain that in the next 5-8 years, people will start to notice that UConn will choke in the tournament repeatedly just like Louisiana Tech did in 1990s. Even if UConn had their strong OOC schedule, their conference schedule will still be their Achilles' heel in failing to prepare them for the tournament, just like American South, Sun Belt & Big West were to Louisiana Tech.

I'm certain that if UConn did not play in Bridgetport, they would have lost in Elite Eight somewhere else. But in Dallas, you can see that MSU was prepared to play UConn and UConn was not. That goes back to their conference play. As much as UConn tried to put SC in February to "prepare" them for the big tournament, it did not work that way.

I recall reading somewhere by Leon Barmore in 1990s saying that he acknowledged that not playing in big conference hurts his team's preparedness for the tournament. Unless AAC improves (which I doubt), I am certain that even with Walker, Stevens, Nurse, Samuelson et al, they will still falter in the tournament against the teams who played in tough conferences eventually.

Maybe in 10 years, Glenn MacGrady will argue that Geno is out of touch and is choking just like Muffet and Tara ... !

R-


Ay Mate



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PostPosted: 04/18/17 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ridor wrote:
I'm certain that in the next 5-8 years, people will start to notice that UConn will choke in the tournament repeatedly just like Louisiana Tech did in 1990s. Even if UConn had their strong OOC schedule, their conference schedule will still be their Achilles' heel in failing to prepare them for the tournament, just like American South, Sun Belt & Big West were to Louisiana Tech.

I'm certain that if UConn did not play in Bridgetport, they would have lost in Elite Eight somewhere else. But in Dallas, you can see that MSU was prepared to play UConn and UConn was not. That goes back to their conference play. As much as UConn tried to put SC in February to "prepare" them for the big tournament, it did not work that way.

I recall reading somewhere by Leon Barmore in 1990s saying that he acknowledged that not playing in big conference hurts his team's preparedness for the tournament. Unless AAC improves (which I doubt), I am certain that even with Walker, Stevens, Nurse, Samuelson et al, they will still falter in the tournament against the teams who played in tough conferences eventually.

Maybe in 10 years, Glenn MacGrady will argue that Geno is out of touch and is choking just like Muffet and Tara ... !

R-


What complete rubbish on every level. Your absolute hatred for UConn is showing again. Why not just say I hope they all die in a plane crash again and spare us with your dribble.


stever



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PostPosted: 04/18/17 5:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

drivel
https://www.google.com/search?q=drivel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8



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Ay Mate



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PostPosted: 04/18/17 6:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

stever wrote:
drivel
https://www.google.com/search?q=drivel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


Oops that's what I meant. Damn auto correct


Queenie



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PostPosted: 04/18/17 10:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

...okay, that was not the particular dumpster fire I was expecting this to turn into...



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ridor



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PostPosted: 04/18/17 10:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie, you need to do something about Ay Mate, he has been harassing me left and right rather than to focus on the discussions.


Ay Mate



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 4:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

muffett is an excellent coach. There are a very few excellent coaches out there. But fact is, there's Geno and then there's everyone else. Everyone knew this was the year to beat them after drafting the top three players in the WNBA. Mississippi State were the lucky ones that caught UConn at just the right time this season.

Next season, UConn is heavily favored like they WERENT this year. Their streak had to end. I'm a big UConn fan and happy another team won. UConn has 4 in a row. That's enough for now. Let someone else have the season because next season it's back to UConn 100%.


basketballologist



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 7:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Little Ms. Muffet need to get off her tuffet and win some more championships


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 10:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think this is a specious thread that Glenn started to try to ignite a dumpster fire.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 12:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ay Mate wrote:
muffett is an excellent coach. There are a very few excellent coaches out there. But fact is, there's Geno and then there's everyone else. Everyone knew this was the year to beat them after drafting the top three players in the WNBA. Mississippi State were the lucky ones that caught UConn at just the right time this season.

Next season, UConn is heavily favored like they WERENT this year. Their streak had to end. I'm a big UConn fan and happy another team won. UConn has 4 in a row. That's enough for now. Let someone else have the season because next season it's back to UConn 100%.


UConn was undefeated (wins over Norte Dame, South Carolina, Maryland and Ohio State) and heavily favored this year. They lost 3 players to the WNBA, but still had National Players of the Year and US and Canadian National Team members.


tfan



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 12:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Since some conferences are less competitive than others, a tournament is very important. What am I missing here?


Compare the number of games in a tournament to the number in a season.

Is the final results of the tournament a better view of the team rankings than a season of play? A better judge of a coach?


linkster



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 1:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Shades wrote:
Since some conferences are less competitive than others, a tournament is very important. What am I missing here?


Compare the number of games in a tournament to the number in a season.

Is the final results of the tournament a better view of the team rankings than a season of play? A better judge of a coach?


I've had this discussion in the past and my position has always been that the entire season is a better measure but the reality is that coaches and teams are judged primarily by the NCAA tournament, either how far they get with regards to top teams, or whether or not they get invited in the cases of most other teams.

Without the NCAA's Warlick may not still have her job. Her regular season results, given the talent she has had, has been average to poor over the last 3 years. There were some nice wins this year but far more bad losses. But twice she has turned bad seasons into good ones by making the E8.


In most sports the measure of a season is the performance on the big stage.


tfan



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
In most sports the measure of a season is the performance on the big stage.


But they try to avoid single elimination. I guess football is to tiring to do that.


linkster



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 2:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
linkster wrote:
In most sports the measure of a season is the performance on the big stage.


But they try to avoid single elimination. I guess football is to tiring to do that.


I've always favored shrinking the NCAA field to 32, playing 2 single elimination rounds the first weekend and then making the E8 play a double elimination tournament for the championship. Politics makes that unlikely to an extreme.


Ay Mate



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PostPosted: 04/19/17 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Ay Mate wrote:
muffett is an excellent coach. There are a very few excellent coaches out there. But fact is, there's Geno and then there's everyone else. Everyone knew this was the year to beat them after drafting the top three players in the WNBA. Mississippi State were the lucky ones that caught UConn at just the right time this season.

Next season, UConn is heavily favored like they WERENT this year. Their streak had to end. I'm a big UConn fan and happy another team won. UConn has 4 in a row. That's enough for now. Let someone else have the season because next season it's back to UConn 100%.


UConn was undefeated (wins over Norte Dame, South Carolina, Maryland and Ohio State) and heavily favored this year. They lost 3 players to the WNBA, but still had National Players of the Year and US and Canadian National Team members.


True. They were favored come tournament time but they weren't favored at all to win those games earlier in the regular season.


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PostPosted: 04/25/17 1:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
I think this is a specious thread that Glenn started to try to ignite a dumpster fire.


Yeah, I wasn't taking the bait.


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PostPosted: 04/25/17 9:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think this is a specious thread that Glenn started to try to ignite a dumpster fire.


Yeah, I wasn't taking the bait.



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PostPosted: 04/25/17 9:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
CBiebel wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I think this is a specious thread that Glenn started to try to ignite a dumpster fire.


Yeah, I wasn't taking the bait.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 04/25/17 10:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laughing every time I see the title of this thread I just go Shocked Rolling Eyes



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PostPosted: 04/27/17 4:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
With regard to her "choking", how many seasons was Notre Dame ranked #1 at the end of the year (and ideally for most of the year)?


The answer is zero. Since 2000 UConn has been ranked #1 in the final AP poll 12 times and has won the national championship 8 of those years. They have also won the NC in 2013 (when they were third) and 2004 (sixth). Baylor has been #1 twice (2012 and 2013) and has been the NC twice (2005 as the #5 team and 2012.) Tennessee has won two championships but has not been ranked #1. In 2007 they won as the #4 team and in 2008 as the #3 team. Duke (twice), North Carolina and Stanford have been the #1 team at the end of the year without winning an NC. Conversely Maryland (#3 in 2006), South Carolina (#4 in 2017) and Texas A&M (#7 in 2011) won the NC but were not ranked #1.

I would certainly not use the word "choke" for any of these teams or coaches. The Duke program has probably underperformed their ranking the most over this period but when you have so few top teams that are consistently at the top the word isn't appropriate. In the past six years UConn and Notre Dame have been in the top 5 each year, Baylor has been in 5 years, Maryland 4, South Carolina 4 and these five teams have been the top 5 each of the last three years. Only Stanford 3 times and Louisville and Cal once each, have also broke through.

Even more surprising, over the past 18 years only 7 teams account for over 2/3 of the top 5 slots (61 of 90), and only 23 teams have been there even once. Every national champion has been ranked in the top 7 and half have been number one. This concentration at the top makes it very difficult to grow the game.


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PostPosted: 04/27/17 7:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Laughing every time I see the title of this thread I just go Shocked Rolling Eyes


Admittedly, I have zero experience using those round cartoon thingies, but I don't believe for a minute, Myrtle, that you can simultaneously keep your eyes wide open and also blinking.

I opened this thread with the admission that Muffet is "more liked, more Teflon and less criticized" than just about any other coach and is "universally praised".

But in order to provoke some critical discusion about her, I asked some provocative questions about "choking" and "losing it". Note that these were all posed as questions, not as my conclusions, my opinions nor even as arguments.

However, I did lay out some background. Muffet has lost some tournament games that, in opinions I've read and heard, she should have won. The topic was most recently suggested by her losses to Stanford the past two years, which many have said she should have won. It's also a heard opinion that Notre Dame shouldn't have lost to TAMU in the finals or to UConn a few years ago. Muffet was upset by 10th seeded Minnesota in the first round in 2009.

So I wonder how many times Muffet has lost to lower ranked teams throughout her 25 years of post-season tournament losses.

For example, can anyone here explain how she came in 7th in the WNIT in 1989 with a 20-11 team, or 8th in that tournament with a 23-9 team in 1991? Ahah . . . no one has considered these famous historical mysteries.

Similarly, no one has addressed the recent, high visibility player departures from the program, which seem very atypical for a Muffet team. Does losing these players not betoken any sort of evidence that something may be awry in South Bend?

RebKellians have no inhibitions about calling out other coaches with superb records, with numerous appearances in the NCAA tournament, Final Four appearances, NC wins, and memberships in the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame and even the Naismith Hall of Fame. For example, I give you such objets-de-sadism as Holly Warlick, Joanne McCallie, Sylvia Hatchell, Andy Landers and Vivian Stringer. Geno Auriemma is constantly insulted, though usually not for losing. He has, however, been accused of blowing close games, OT games and some tournament games, even by his own fans and himself.

Why should Muffet McGraw be such an untouchable China doll?
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