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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/07/17 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
justintyme wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:

There is no law prohibiting bombing a sovereign nation that is not at war with the U.S.? Shocked

No. Not really. "International Law" is not this super codified thing like people seem to think. There are some specifics signed on through the Geneva convention and the like, but most things are not cut and dried. Based upon the US's position in this battle it would be a very hard case to make that they broke any law.

And you don't see any president, Sanders included, ordering the disablement of a military base used to stage chemical weapon attacks?



A friendly heads-up: the primary is over so you can stop with the Sanders sideswipes. Smile

This "measured response" apparently left the runway intact and hit no chemicals. It's only mission was to bump the criminal's favorability numbers and distract from the Russian probe.

I am, and was, a huge Sanders supporter. I voted for him in the Minnesota primary. So I am definitely not taking swipes at him. I was using him to point out that the action taken here is not "hawkish" behavior but is rather measured, at least so far. Going forward this could change, depending on what Trump decides to do.

If the attack failed to achieve its objectives, that is a different issue and fair to criticize in regards to its execution. However it shouldn't be conflated with whether or not the strike was the correct decision to begin with, as that is the fallacy of outcome bias.


The reason for the attack was for nothing other than boosting polls and distracting from the investigation.

You may have voted for Bernie but you seem to project your POV onto him. I seriously doubt a POTUS Sanders would have done any such thing. (his poll numbers wouldn't have tanked so bad in the first place. 2ndly, had they done so, this wouldn't be a strategy of his anyway, imo).



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/07/17 11:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The problem is that you are treating this as if it were only a politically motivated move. As I noted, Clinton herself was calling for Trump to do this because it was a militarily sound option to try and stop future chemical attacks without much esculation of our role in the region.

Presidents have a tendency to listen to their generals and intellegence officers when chosing a course of action, which is why what they say as candidates and what they do as presidents tend to be different.

I see no reason, based on Sander's positions that he took during the campagin (specifically when he said that he would have no issue using our military when the situation called for it), that would suggest he wouldn't have made the same decision under these circumstances.

By the way, Sanders has not condemned this strike. His statement was exactly the same as mine...no opposition to this, but concern that it might suggest getting pulled further into the quagmire.

He also called Assad a war criminal who needs to be removed.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 04/07/17 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does Trump need congressional approval to strike Syria? The debate, explained.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 04/07/17 2:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<embed><iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OJ-_Qjt3Rc0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ-_Qjt3Rc0

You voted for him.




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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/07/17 4:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There is some irony in World Star putting up a video from an alt-right White Nationalist.This guy is the former leader of the white nationalist youth program.

So many conspiracy theories. This crap is literally on Info-Wars...



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 04/08/17 11:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If footage of innocents suffering painful deaths at the hands of warmongers is adequate reason to fire missiles, then why have there been no missiles fired in Sudan. Or Rwanda. Etc.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 04/08/17 2:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
If footage of innocents suffering painful deaths at the hands of warmongers is adequate reason to fire missiles, then why have there been no missiles fired in Sudan. Or Rwanda. Etc.


Ordinarily the difference would be proximity to Israel and oil, but in this case we still were overlooking the slaughter. So the key must be the use of WMDs, which was accentuated by the videos.


linkster



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 04/09/17 4:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is what the invasion of Syria is all about:

Quote:
This coalition and meddling in Syria came about immediately on the heels of discussions of an Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline that was to be built between 2014 and 2016 from Iran’s giant South Pars field through Iraq and Syria. With a possible extension to Lebanon, it would eventually reach Europe, the target export market.

Perhaps the most accurate description of the current crisis over gas, oil and pipelines that is raging in Syria has been described by Dmitry Minin, writing for the Strategic Cultural Foundation in May 2013:

A battle is raging over whether pipelines will go toward Europe from east to west, from Iran and Iraq to the Mediterranean coast of Syria, or take a more northbound route from Qatar and Saudi Arabia via Syria and Turkey. Having realized that the stalled Nabucco pipeline, and indeed the entire Southern Corridor, are backed up only by Azerbaijan’s reserves and can never equal Russian supplies to Europe or thwart the construction of the South Stream, the West is in a hurry to replace them with resources from the Persian Gulf. Syria ends up being a key link in this chain, and it leans in favor of Iran and Russia; thus it was decided in the Western capitals that its regime needs to change.


It’s the oil, gas and pipelines, stupid!

Indeed, tensions were building between Russia, the U.S. and the European Union amid concerns that the European gas market would be held hostage to Russian gas giant Gazprom. The proposed Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline would be essential to diversifying Europe’s energy supplies away from Russia.

Turkey is Gazprom’s second-largest customer. The entire Turkish energy security structure relies on gas from Russia and Iran. Plus, Turkey was harboring Ottoman-like ambitions of becoming a strategic crossroads for the export of Russian, Caspian-Central Asian, Iraqi and Iranian oil and even gas to Europe.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-10/competing-gas-pipelines-are-fueling-syrian-war-migrant-crisis


linkster



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PostPosted: 04/09/17 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
If footage of innocents suffering painful deaths at the hands of warmongers is adequate reason to fire missiles, then why have there been no missiles fired in Sudan. Or Rwanda. Etc.


And why is the US giving support to the Saudi's dropping cluster bombs in Yemen?

There is no moral high ground to what is going on in the middle east.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 04/09/17 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
Howee wrote:
If footage of innocents suffering painful deaths at the hands of warmongers is adequate reason to fire missiles, then why have there been no missiles fired in Sudan. Or Rwanda. Etc.


And why is the US giving support to the Saudi's dropping cluster bombs in Yemen?

There is no moral high ground to what is going on in the middle east.


And yet....Americans still puzzle over the intensity of ISIS' hatred of us.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/10/17 12:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
linkster wrote:
Howee wrote:
If footage of innocents suffering painful deaths at the hands of warmongers is adequate reason to fire missiles, then why have there been no missiles fired in Sudan. Or Rwanda. Etc.


And why is the US giving support to the Saudi's dropping cluster bombs in Yemen?

There is no moral high ground to what is going on in the middle east.


And yet....Americans still puzzle over the intensity of ISIS' hatred of us.

ISIS hates everyone who is not ISIS. Just look at the way they treat other Muslims, or even worse how they treat the Yazidi.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/10/17 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

idea of a "liberal bias" in the media again shot to shit. Brian Williams calling the missile launches "beautiful" and some other asshole pundit proclaiming "Trump became president" tonight.

--------------------

Trump tweeted in 2013 that, “The president must get congressional approval before attacking Syria – big mistake if he does not!”


He also commented on Obama needing congressional approval for an attack on Syria, or the lack of a need for an attack on Syria, at least three other times.



More fun facts:

Obama travel expenses after 8 yrs.- $97 million

Trump's after 10 weeks- $23 million.

Trump has golfed every 5.6 days since inauguration.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/10/17 10:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Ugh. Suggesting that the US used chemical weapons on civilians in some sort of false flag attack is beyond the pale. Actually have a shred of evidence for such a thing before going all "Info-Wars".

Personally, I am willing to give our military and intellegence communities the benefit of the doubt and see how all of this plays out. I don't really like the idea of getting more involved in the festering quagmire that is that region right now, but I really don't know if there was any right answer to Assad using chemical weapons.


This is how it played out:

Trump told Putin (prior to US Congress), who then told Assad. All critical things at the minor airbase were moved out of harm's way. Missiles take out the mess hall and old planes (which will be replaced by state-of-the-art Russian planes) and the same airbase was used, the day after the strike, to bomb the same area that was gassed.

Sect of state Tillerson says there is no change in US policy in the region.

It was Wag the Dog and distraction from the Russia probe. Look over here, media, missiles!!!



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linkster



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PostPosted: 04/10/17 6:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In further support of it being a false flag operation:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130129213824/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270219/U-S-planned-launch-chemical-weapon-attack-Syria-blame-Assad.html

Quote:
Leaked emails have allegedly proved that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria that could be blamed on Assad's regime and in turn, spur international military action in the devastated country.
A report released on Monday contains an email exchange between two senior officials at British-based contractor Britam Defence where a scheme 'approved by Washington' is outlined explaining that Qatar would fund rebel forces in Syria to use chemical weapons.



Notice that this article goes back to 2013.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/10/17 7:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
In further support of it being a false flag operation:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130129213824/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270219/U-S-planned-launch-chemical-weapon-attack-Syria-blame-Assad.html

Quote:
Leaked emails have allegedly proved that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria that could be blamed on Assad's regime and in turn, spur international military action in the devastated country.
A report released on Monday contains an email exchange between two senior officials at British-based contractor Britam Defence where a scheme 'approved by Washington' is outlined explaining that Qatar would fund rebel forces in Syria to use chemical weapons.



Notice that this article goes back to 2013.


You have got to be kidding me. This is literally from InfoWars...

From the "article":

"According to Infowars.com, the December 25 email was sent from Britam's Business Development Director David Goulding to company founder Philip Doughty."

This is the same site that pushed the whole Pizzagate crap. It's clear that people are going to just believe what they want to believe and accept any worthless piece of shit "report" that comes along that echoes a narrative they already believe (or want to believe) no matter the source.

Evidence based thinking, and even moreso, the ability to distinguish actual evidence from utter rubbish seems to be in shorter and shorter supply these days.



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mercfan3



Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/10/17 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
linkster wrote:
In further support of it being a false flag operation:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130129213824/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2270219/U-S-planned-launch-chemical-weapon-attack-Syria-blame-Assad.html

Quote:
Leaked emails have allegedly proved that the White House gave the green light to a chemical weapons attack in Syria that could be blamed on Assad's regime and in turn, spur international military action in the devastated country.
A report released on Monday contains an email exchange between two senior officials at British-based contractor Britam Defence where a scheme 'approved by Washington' is outlined explaining that Qatar would fund rebel forces in Syria to use chemical weapons.



Notice that this article goes back to 2013.


You have got to be kidding me. This is literally from InfoWars...

From the "article":

"According to Infowars.com, the December 25 email was sent from Britam's Business Development Director David Goulding to company founder Philip Doughty."

This is the same site that pushed the whole Pizzagate crap. It's clear that people are going to just believe what they want to believe and accept any worthless piece of shit "report" that comes along that echoes a narrative they already believe (or want to believe) no matter the source.

Evidence based thinking, and even moreso, the ability to distinguish actual evidence from utter rubbish seems to be in shorter and shorter supply these days.


There is a significant amount evidence to suggest Putin and Assad were tipped off.

Infowars is completely crap though..

And, I'm not necessarily opposed to military action in Syria. I'm opposed to going about it the wrong way (Which this administration did, in a few ways)..and honestly, I'm against *this* administration using any kind of military action. Laughing



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/10/17 11:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:

There is a significant amount evidence to suggest Putin and Assad were tipped off.

Yes. But I was under the impression that was common knowledge and openly admitted to. I believe they warned Putin so the Russians could move their equipment, and minimize the risk of esculation with Russia. They had to assume that Russia would then inform Syria.

And don't get me wrong, the idea of Trump leading us to war scares the shit out of me. I would not be in favor of any additional unilateral actions going forward.

But the strike itself was not out of line and was not in and of itself an overreach of presidential power. Basically, I asked myself if Obama had done this, would I have felt he overstepped? And my answer was no.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/11/17 6:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
And, I'm not necessarily opposed to military action in Syria


Why not? What do we gain from sticking another fist into the Middle East tar baby?



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 04/11/17 4:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
And, I'm not necessarily opposed to military action in Syria


Why not? What do we gain from sticking another fist into the Middle East tar baby?


By Military action, I don't necessarily mean bombing them.

But I can see possibilities where I wouldn't be against it. (For instance, if the people asked us for help, or if we were working with members of the United Nations..etc..)

I don't expect this administration to work with anyone, nor do I foresee them making correct decisions.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/14/18 8:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Second verse, same as the first



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Make lots of noise
Kiss lots of boys
Or kiss lots of girls
If that's something you're into
When the straight and narrow
Gets a little too straight
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Follow your arrow
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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/14/18 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Second verse, same as the first



Indeed. Friday was a bad day for mob boss Trump and voila, like magic, a shiny thing appears for the media!


When things calm down, the GOP assault of Comey will go full bore. Probably Monday.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/15/18 2:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This thread isn't quite what I was expecting.

Shocked


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/15/18 4:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
This thread isn't quite what I was expecting.

Shocked


Probably one of the more intriguing posts I’ve seen here in a while. Considering it all from an angle that breaks with the pack? Do tell.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/16/18 5:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
pilight wrote:
Second verse, same as the first



Indeed. Friday was a bad day for mob boss Trump and voila, like magic, a shiny thing appears for the media!


When things calm down, the GOP assault of Comey will go full bore. Probably Monday.



aaaaaand cue the Comey attacks.



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