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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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Location: Colorado
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 Posted: 12/04/16 5:05 pm ::: |
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| Just saw breaking news on CNN that the pipeline is going to be rerouted. Thank you to the water protectors for standing up for what is best. Sad so much sacrifice was required to accomplish this. Heartfelt thanks to those that stood up.
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tfan
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toad455
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| Posted: 12/04/16 5:38 pm ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| Just saw breaking news on CNN that the pipeline is going to be rerouted. Thank you to the water protectors for standing up for what is best. Sad so much sacrifice was required to accomplish this. Heartfelt thanks to those that stood up. |
just saw this news as well. Fantastic! Let's just hope Trump doesn't reverse it.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/04/16 6:45 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Tulsi Gabbard - Donald Trump's favorite Democrat and under consideration for a spot in his administration.
Exhibit A for where Trump and Sanders supporters converge. A Sanders supporter Democrat who is an avidly anti-immigration, anti-refuge, anti-gun control Islamophobe.
Not sure I find her endorsement very compelling on anything. |
Yea...do not want.
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Force10rulz
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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| Posted: 12/09/16 11:40 am ::: |
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| I'm afraid when Trump gets into office, but meanwhile dapl has gone to court to be able to keep the same route, so many of the brave protectors are still at the Sacred Stone Camp braving blizzard like conditions. Keep sending your thoughts to them and thanks for keeping yourselves informed!
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/09/16 4:33 pm ::: |
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| Force10rulz wrote: |
| I'm afraid when Trump gets into office, but meanwhile dapl has gone to court to be able to keep the same route, so many of the brave protectors are still at the Sacred Stone Camp braving blizzard like conditions. Keep sending your thoughts to them and thanks for keeping yourselves informed! |
Probably not a frivolous suit considering that, according to published reports, the assistant secretary overruled the recommendation of the Corps of Engineers. There's never been that I've seen an explanation of in what respects the Corps's findings were wrong.
There are legal standards for these decisions. If the administrative record supports one decision you can't just disregard the record and rule the opposite for political reasons.
I'd like to read the full decision by the ass't secretary of the Army. Please post a link if you happen to come across it.
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Force10rulz
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Force10rulz
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ArtBest23
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Force10rulz
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| Posted: 03/24/17 9:26 am ::: |
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| They did, and now the way has been paved for a Presidential permit. It really sucks. what a history this country has, not even one treaty honored. They are just white conservative old rich men running this country.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 03/24/17 11:48 am ::: |
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Or, a court objectively determined that it didn't violate any treaty.
Just because the tribes lost their suits doesn't mean the decisions are incorrect as a legal matter.
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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Location: Colorado
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| Posted: 03/28/17 12:52 am ::: |
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| Force10rulz wrote: |
| They did, and now the way has been paved for a Presidential permit. It really sucks. what a history this country has, not even one treaty honored. They are just white conservative old rich men running this country. |
Am so sorry this is still happening. The history of this land since the arrival of whites makes me literally ill.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 03/28/17 8:50 am ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| Force10rulz wrote: |
| They did, and now the way has been paved for a Presidential permit. It really sucks. what a history this country has, not even one treaty honored. They are just white conservative old rich men running this country. |
Am so sorry this is still happening. The history of this land since the arrival of whites makes me literally ill. |
And what do you think of the history of this land prior to the arrival of the whites?
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Posted: 03/28/17 6:56 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| Force10rulz wrote: |
| They did, and now the way has been paved for a Presidential permit. It really sucks. what a history this country has, not even one treaty honored. They are just white conservative old rich men running this country. |
Am so sorry this is still happening. The history of this land since the arrival of whites makes me literally ill. |
And what do you think of the history of this land prior to the arrival of the whites? |
Based on my readings and my personal experiences with present-day Native-Americans, I believe what the white man referred to as savages were living in a vastly superior culture to the Europeans that arrived here and "discovered" this land.
While I prefer native authors, I believe the most objective book that I've read on the history you inquired about is In The Hands of the Great Spirit: The 20,000 year history of American Indians by Jake Page.
I base my perspective on the honesty and the awareness of the oneness with the rest of nature among native cultures. Then contrast that with the dishonesty and manipulative minds of the whites which led to a nearly unfathomable genocide. I strongly recommend reading Vine Deloria's God is Red if this is a subject that interests you.
Sure, there was warfare between tribes and tortures similar to European history. It is my understanding, however, that the Europeans taught the natives that they manipulated how to scalp.
The Iroquios Confederacy which was an inspiration for the Constitution of the United States indicates to me that they were evolving faster than the Europeans.
I often try to imagine what this land would be like if the white man had never arrived here. Maybe not paradise, but it would be a damn site better than this country I live in now. Our constitution, if you haven't noticed, is nothing more than a meaningless symbol today.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/28/17 7:13 pm ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| I often try to imagine what this land would be like if the white man had never arrived here. Maybe not paradise, but it would be a damn site better than this country I live in now. Our constitution, if you haven't noticed, is nothing more than a meaningless symbol today. |
Maybe. The dearth of domesticable animals would have made advanced civilization of the kind we're accustomed to nearly impossible.
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Posted: 03/28/17 10:51 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| I often try to imagine what this land would be like if the white man had never arrived here. Maybe not paradise, but it would be a damn site better than this country I live in now. Our constitution, if you haven't noticed, is nothing more than a meaningless symbol today. |
Maybe. The dearth of domesticable animals would have made advanced civilization of the kind we're accustomed to nearly impossible. |
The slaughter of 60 million buffalo by whites is the first thing that popped into my mind. Dearth? I like having horses here, but not sure cattle for the purposes that we use them for would be missed.
I did a bit of research some time ago on what plants and animals originated here, so I can't spew facts off the top of my head, but I'm certain I've read it estimated that at least 100,000 buffalo once roamed the plains.
I trust you already know they were slaughtered as a means of logistically defeating the Lakota, Cheyenne and Arapahoe, since the U.S. military got it's ass (deservingly) kicked in the plains.
Given the knowledge of preservation of wildlife these tribes had/have, how exactly did you reach your conclusion? Also, what advancements are you thinking would be missing?
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 03/29/17 1:10 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| I often try to imagine what this land would be like if the white man had never arrived here. Maybe not paradise, but it would be a damn site better than this country I live in now. Our constitution, if you haven't noticed, is nothing more than a meaningless symbol today. |
Maybe. The dearth of domesticable animals would have made advanced civilization of the kind we're accustomed to nearly impossible. |
You say that as if the "advanced civilization" we have is better than.....WHAT?
"Advances" throughout the millennia are typically measured in things such as strength of military forces and weapons, utilization of technology to expedite food production, and development of peaceful, stable governments. Then there's a strong and growing infrastructure, and cultural advances, too. By these standards, we could say North America is more "advanced" now than it was in 1400.
But even now, we have residents of this land that don't have full benefit of such 'blessings', whose lives haven't been equally impacted by these "advances". Natives are only one (large!) demographic that see this inequity. I personally see True Advancement as a striving for Utopia. Capitalism is less concerned with that. Is THAT "advancement"?
This pipeline project is a prime example: it is for the advancement of the UBER capitalistic petroleum industry. It disregards the higher concerns of a whole population's spiritual quandary, and doesn't care how it all shits on their culture, never mind their drinking water. Where is the "advanced" part of that progress? Somehow, I don't see how domesticated animals (or any other part of the equation) have made us more advanced.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/29/17 6:23 am ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| I often try to imagine what this land would be like if the white man had never arrived here. Maybe not paradise, but it would be a damn site better than this country I live in now. Our constitution, if you haven't noticed, is nothing more than a meaningless symbol today. |
Maybe. The dearth of domesticable animals would have made advanced civilization of the kind we're accustomed to nearly impossible. |
The slaughter of 60 million buffalo by whites is the first thing that popped into my mind. Dearth? I like having horses here, but not sure cattle for the purposes that we use them for would be missed. |
Bison aren't domesticable.
Native Americans were pretty far behind the Europeans in agriculture and mining because of the lack of big pack animals native to the new world. The largest domesticated animal of the Americas is the llama, which maxes out at about 1/3 the size of a small horse.
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ArtBest23
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Posted: 03/29/17 9:47 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| I often try to imagine what this land would be like if the white man had never arrived here. Maybe not paradise, but it would be a damn site better than this country I live in now. Our constitution, if you haven't noticed, is nothing more than a meaningless symbol today. |
Maybe. The dearth of domesticable animals would have made advanced civilization of the kind we're accustomed to nearly impossible. |
The slaughter of 60 million buffalo by whites is the first thing that popped into my mind. Dearth? I like having horses here, but not sure cattle for the purposes that we use them for would be missed. |
Bison aren't domesticable.
Native Americans were pretty far behind the Europeans in agriculture and mining because of the lack of big pack animals native to the new world. The largest domesticated animal of the Americas is the llama, which maxes out at about 1/3 the size of a small horse. |
Native Americans made far better use of this free animal than Europeans did with the cattle. Every single part of the buffalo was used and with reverence and respect for the animal.
It's a myth that the Plains Indians didn't have farms. To be primarily meat eaters requires refrigeration ... They also had a superior understanding of real medicines.
I've thought about my response here all morning. The best answer I can put forth is that we clearly have a different view of what is good.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 03/29/17 9:59 am ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| To be primarily meat eaters requires refrigeration . |
Say what????
People all over the world have been drying and curing meat and fish for preservation for over 10,000 years.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/29/17 10:03 am ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| To be primarily meat eaters requires refrigeration |
Well, no, it can be dried and salt cured. It will keep a long time that way. Ch'arki, the Incas called it.
There's also the matter of wheat and barley being better cereals than maize, easier to cultivate and having much higher nutritional value.
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Posted: 03/29/17 10:40 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| To be primarily meat eaters requires refrigeration |
Well, no, it can be dried and salt cured. It will keep a long time that way. Ch'arki, the Incas called it.
There's also the matter of wheat and barley being better cereals than maize, easier to cultivate and having much higher nutritional value. |
I'm trusting what I've learned from Russell Means here. You could not kill a buffalo - a ton of meat - out in the Plains and transport it back to your home.
As you know, I've tremendous respect for your intellect. My years of studying American Indian history and values were, um, interrupted within days of googling The American Indian Movement. I've already attempted to explain this in two previous posts fully aware it was like trying to explain a rainbow to someone that cannot see colors. In this case, be very happy that you don't.
That said, this land rightfully belongs to the American Indians. If ever elected dictator, I pledge to give it back.
I'd like to see this thread move back towards solutions. Too much effort went into stopping that black snake and it needs to die.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/29/17 10:54 am ::: |
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| KatValeska wrote: |
| I'm trusting what I've learned from Russell Means here. You could not kill a buffalo - a ton of meat - out in the Plains and transport it back to your home |
That leads back into the problem of domestication. With cattle, you didn't have to do that. You could take the cow home first, then slaughter it. You can't do that with a buffalo.
In any event, what I was getting at was that whatever advantages European culture had were strictly based on geography. They wandered into the right place at the right time.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 03/29/17 11:18 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| KatValeska wrote: |
| To be primarily meat eaters requires refrigeration |
Well, no, it can be dried and salt cured. It will keep a long time that way. Ch'arki, the Incas called it.
There's also the matter of wheat and barley being better cereals than maize, easier to cultivate and having much higher nutritional value. |
Ancient Egyptians in the lower Nile are believed to have been sun drying fish and poultry over 12,000 years ago, before the first people had even crossed from Asia to North America.
Smoke curing, with or without salt, also goes back thousands of years.
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