RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

Which team will outperform expectations the most in 2017?
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » WNBA
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Which team will outperform expectations the most in 2017?
Dream
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Fever
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
Liberty
9%
 9%  [ 5 ]
Lynx
3%
 3%  [ 2 ]
Mercury
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Mystics
11%
 11%  [ 6 ]
Sky
9%
 9%  [ 5 ]
Sparks
7%
 7%  [ 4 ]
Stars
15%
 15%  [ 8 ]
Storm
17%
 17%  [ 9 ]
Sun
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
Wings
7%
 7%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 51

Author Message
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
In those glorious three seasons when Glory was around and healthy enough to play at least 29 games, Tulsa won 9, 11 and 12 games, and finished 11th, 11th and 12th in the league in defensive efficiency. In a 12-team league.

zune69 wrote:
Johnson and Diggins have missed a combined 84 games over the last two seasons.Dallas/Tulsa still managed to make the playoffs in 2015.

Yes, the results of a team from two years ago that was led by Odyssesy Sims, Plenette Pierson and Riquna Williams are clearly hugely relevant to how Dallas will perform this season...


I agree with the first part.Tulsa/Dallas has always been a poor defensive basketball team,even when they had Cambage/Johnson as the starting 4/5.But I believe this team will have more all around talent(Powers,Christmas,2 draft picks) and less nuckleheads(Sims,Williams)

Disagree with your 2nd point.After Diggins went down in 2015 tulsa played like crap.As the primary scorers,Sims & Williams were too ball dominate,shot happy,streaky and inefficient.Yes,Sims was on that team.But she was more of a negative than a positive,and Pierson's number fell off after Diggins went down.8-1 with Diggins...10-15 without.

Diggins > Sims.....Johnson > Pierson....Powers = R.Williams,but bigger,stronger,and with a higher ceiling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Starting backcourt is Phillips/Diggins.More defense at the point.


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
In those glorious three seasons when Glory was around and healthy enough to play at least 29 games, Tulsa won 9, 11 and 12 games, and finished 11th, 11th and 12th in the league in defensive efficiency. In a 12-team league.

zune69 wrote:
Johnson and Diggins have missed a combined 84 games over the last two seasons.Dallas/Tulsa still managed to make the playoffs in 2015.

Yes, the results of a team from two years ago that was led by Odyssesy Sims, Plenette Pierson and Riquna Williams are clearly hugely relevant to how Dallas will perform this season...


I agree with the first part.Tulsa/Dallas has always been a poor defensive basketball team,even when they had Cambage/Johnson as the starting 4/5.But I believe this team will have more all around talent(Powers,Christmas,2 draft picks) and less nuckleheads(Sims,Williams)

Disagree with your 2nd point.After Diggins went down in 2015 tulsa played like crap.As the primary scorers,Sims & Williams were too ball dominate,shot happy,streaky and inefficient.Yes,Sims was on that team.But she was more of a negative than a positive,and Pierson's number fell off after Diggins went down.8-1 with Diggins...10-15 without.

Diggins > Sims.....Johnson > Pierson....Powers = R.Williams,but bigger,stronger,and with a higher ceiling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Starting backcourt is Phillips/Diggins.More defense at the point.


Phillips should not be starting for us at all . I like her coming off the bench as a 6th man . She pounds the rock entirely too much and has to force jacked shots with the shot clock dwindling . I saw that way to many times last year in arlington. Diggins/Powers/Christmas/Johnson/Paris or Draft Pick



_________________
3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
RavenDog



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 6863
Location: Home


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 11:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Could someone kindly lay out what the expectations are for each team at his point, because without that basis it's impossible to say who I think will exceed them.


+1


zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
In those glorious three seasons when Glory was around and healthy enough to play at least 29 games, Tulsa won 9, 11 and 12 games, and finished 11th, 11th and 12th in the league in defensive efficiency. In a 12-team league.

zune69 wrote:
Johnson and Diggins have missed a combined 84 games over the last two seasons.Dallas/Tulsa still managed to make the playoffs in 2015.

Yes, the results of a team from two years ago that was led by Odyssesy Sims, Plenette Pierson and Riquna Williams are clearly hugely relevant to how Dallas will perform this season...


I agree with the first part.Tulsa/Dallas has always been a poor defensive basketball team,even when they had Cambage/Johnson as the starting 4/5.But I believe this team will have more all around talent(Powers,Christmas,2 draft picks) and less nuckleheads(Sims,Williams)

Disagree with your 2nd point.After Diggins went down in 2015 tulsa played like crap.As the primary scorers,Sims & Williams were too ball dominate,shot happy,streaky and inefficient.Yes,Sims was on that team.But she was more of a negative than a positive,and Pierson's number fell off after Diggins went down.8-1 with Diggins...10-15 without.

Diggins > Sims.....Johnson > Pierson....Powers = R.Williams,but bigger,stronger,and with a higher ceiling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Starting backcourt is Phillips/Diggins.More defense at the point.


Phillips should not be starting for us at all . I like her coming off the bench as a 6th man . She pounds the rock entirely too much and has to force jacked shots with the shot clock dwindling . I saw that way to many times last year in arlington. Diggins/Powers/Christmas/Johnson/Paris or Draft Pick


1.Most pg's dribble the ball a lot.

2.Phillips takes quality shots.

3.Phillips is a excellent on ball defender.

4.Last season Phillips was a very good shooter across the board 44/38/90.

5.Diggins,Powers,Christmas & Johnson all like to shoot the basketball.You need players that are willing to do the dirty work without complaining about shot attempts(Phillips,Paris)

6.Some players play better coming off the bench(Powers ? )

7.The starting lineup will depend on bench depth.If dallas has a thin bench.Phillips has a outside shot at being the starting pg.

8.Coates,Jones nor Russell will start over Paris unless she's traded,which is very possible.


Ay Mate



Joined: 12 Nov 2016
Posts: 1280



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 3:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Seattle's late season run was overrated imo.

W vs New York(No Stokes,No Wright)
W vs Washington(No Latta,No Sanders)
W vs Los Angeles(No.Ogwumike,No Toliver)
L vs Phoenix-lost by 24
W vs chicago(No Delle donne,No Pondexter,No Vandersloot)
L vs Atlanta(No Hayes,No Lyttle)

Seattle beat a lot of teams that were missing multiple rotation players.Then lost in the playoffs to a dream team that was missing two starters.

Swords is a good pickup,I just think that seattle overpaid.They should have waited until draft day to make a trade(see who declares)

Ay Mate wrote:

Boucek is a much worse coach than Williams. She was the worst coaching hire in the league since Nolan Richardson.


Never been a fan of Boucek.


Worst thing Seattle ever did was fire Brian Agler. With Boucek, they'll never go anywhere, and yes, their last season run last year was not because they played good, it was because their opponents sat out their stars.


myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32326



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 4:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Agler left by his own choice? And why not go to a team with a shot at a championship rather than stick with a team that's going to be rebuilding for a number of years?



_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
Ay Mate



Joined: 12 Nov 2016
Posts: 1280



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought I heard he was fired because the Storm wanted to go a completely different route and go with youth.


zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/03/17 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Could someone kindly lay out what the expectations are for each team at his point, because without that basis it's impossible to say who I think will exceed them.


+1


Judging by the comments on rebkell,this imo is the prediction consensus up to this point:

Level 1:
Minnesota
Los Angeles

Level 2:
New york
Washington
Phoenix
Seattle

Level 3:
Dallas
Chicago
Indiana

Level 4:
Atlanta
Connecticut
San Antonio

But it's still early....


Angus24



Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 686
Location: South Dakota


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/04/17 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Glad to see the majority vote with me for SAS. I think they will be much better than most of you think. A lot of new players and two high draft picks should really turn things around. The biggest question mark may be VJ, the new coach. He has been there, done that, and I think he will be very good.


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/04/17 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
In those glorious three seasons when Glory was around and healthy enough to play at least 29 games, Tulsa won 9, 11 and 12 games, and finished 11th, 11th and 12th in the league in defensive efficiency. In a 12-team league.

zune69 wrote:
Johnson and Diggins have missed a combined 84 games over the last two seasons.Dallas/Tulsa still managed to make the playoffs in 2015.

Yes, the results of a team from two years ago that was led by Odyssesy Sims, Plenette Pierson and Riquna Williams are clearly hugely relevant to how Dallas will perform this season...


I agree with the first part.Tulsa/Dallas has always been a poor defensive basketball team,even when they had Cambage/Johnson as the starting 4/5.But I believe this team will have more all around talent(Powers,Christmas,2 draft picks) and less nuckleheads(Sims,Williams)

Disagree with your 2nd point.After Diggins went down in 2015 tulsa played like crap.As the primary scorers,Sims & Williams were too ball dominate,shot happy,streaky and inefficient.Yes,Sims was on that team.But she was more of a negative than a positive,and Pierson's number fell off after Diggins went down.8-1 with Diggins...10-15 without.

Diggins > Sims.....Johnson > Pierson....Powers = R.Williams,but bigger,stronger,and with a higher ceiling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Starting backcourt is Phillips/Diggins.More defense at the point.


Phillips should not be starting for us at all . I like her coming off the bench as a 6th man . She pounds the rock entirely too much and has to force jacked shots with the shot clock dwindling . I saw that way to many times last year in arlington. Diggins/Powers/Christmas/Johnson/Paris or Draft Pick


1.Most pg's dribble the ball a lot.

2.Phillips takes quality shots.

3.Phillips is a excellent on ball defender.

4.Last season Phillips was a very good shooter across the board 44/38/90.

5.Diggins,Powers,Christmas & Johnson all like to shoot the basketball.You need players that are willing to do the dirty work without complaining about shot attempts(Phillips,Paris)

6.Some players play better coming off the bench(Powers ? )

7.The starting lineup will depend on bench depth.If dallas has a thin bench.Phillips has a outside shot at being the starting pg.

8.Coates,Jones nor Russell will start over Paris unless she's traded,which is very possible.


With the system fred attempts to play high tempo theres no need for the pg to have the ball dribbling at the top of the key for 20 seconds every possession. Phillips was a great assett but she should not be starting.



_________________
3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/04/17 5:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
With the system fred attempts to play high tempo .


That's part of the problem.Just because dallas plays an uptempo style does not mean it's the most optimal pace for team success.Dallas took the 3rd most shot last season,but had the worst fg% in the league(40%).Dallas was also 2nd to last in assist.What good is playing at a faster pace if you're taking rushed low quality shots without looking for the open man ? Dallas should play at a pace more suited to winning basketball games based on the construction of their roster.Imo,Dallas has more half court players than run & gun players.They need to find the right balance.

WNBA 09 wrote:
Phillips was a great assett but she should not be starting.


This remains to be seen.We don't know what the final roster will look like.


WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/04/17 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
With the system fred attempts to play high tempo .


That's part of the problem.Just because dallas plays an uptempo style does not mean it's the most optimal pace for team success.Dallas took the 3rd most shot last season,but had the worst fg% in the league(40%).Dallas was also 2nd to last in assist.What good is playing at a faster pace if you're taking rushed low quality shots without looking for the open man ? Dallas should play at a pace more suited to winning basketball games based on the construction of their roster.Imo,Dallas has more half court players than run & gun players.They need to find the right balance.

WNBA 09 wrote:
Phillips was a great assett but she should not be starting.


This remains to be seen.We don't know what the final roster will look like.


The numbers speak for themselves. 2Nd to last in assist with phillips and sims pounding the ball for 20 seconds a possession and you miss the playoffs, But you want to see this again this season also?



_________________
3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/04/17 7:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:
zune69 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
With the system fred attempts to play high tempo .


That's part of the problem.Just because dallas plays an uptempo style does not mean it's the most optimal pace for team success.Dallas took the 3rd most shot last season,but had the worst fg% in the league(40%).Dallas was also 2nd to last in assist.What good is playing at a faster pace if you're taking rushed low quality shots without looking for the open man ? Dallas should play at a pace more suited to winning basketball games based on the construction of their roster.Imo,Dallas has more half court players than run & gun players.They need to find the right balance.

WNBA 09 wrote:
Phillips was a great assett but she should not be starting.



This remains to be seen.We don't know what the final roster will look like.


The numbers speak for themselves. 2Nd to last in assist with phillips and sims pounding the ball for 20 seconds a possession and you miss the playoffs, But you want to see this again this season also?


This is just stupid and idiotic.Phillips averaged less than 15 minutes per game.She played team basketball and never forced up low quality shots.Phillips reached the wnba playoffs every year she played prior to last season.Including winning a wnba championship as a starting guard in 2012.Phillips was a positive for dallas last season.


myrtle



Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32326



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/04/17 11:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IMO Phillips was under-utilized last year. With ALL the other guards shooting under 40%, Dallas does need to change up what it's doing. Jacking up (and missing) quick shots won't equal wins.



_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
jap



Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 7909



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 2:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ay Mate wrote:
I thought I heard he was fired because the Storm wanted to go a completely different route and go with youth.


No, I left on his own, jumping on the opportunity to coach the Sparks after Boss Ross was released.



_________________
Regards,
J A P
WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 7:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
zune69 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
With the system fred attempts to play high tempo .


That's part of the problem.Just because dallas plays an uptempo style does not mean it's the most optimal pace for team success.Dallas took the 3rd most shot last season,but had the worst fg% in the league(40%).Dallas was also 2nd to last in assist.What good is playing at a faster pace if you're taking rushed low quality shots without looking for the open man ? Dallas should play at a pace more suited to winning basketball games based on the construction of their roster.Imo,Dallas has more half court players than run & gun players.They need to find the right balance.

WNBA 09 wrote:
Phillips was a great assett but she should not be starting.



This remains to be seen.We don't know what the final roster will look like.


The numbers speak for themselves. 2Nd to last in assist with phillips and sims pounding the ball for 20 seconds a possession and you miss the playoffs, But you want to see this again this season also?


This is just stupid and idiotic.Phillips averaged less than 15 minutes per game.She played team basketball and never forced up low quality shots.Phillips reached the wnba playoffs every year she played prior to last season.Including winning a wnba championship as a starting guard in 2012.Phillips was a positive for dallas last season.



What does phillips reaching the playoffs in 2012 have anything to do with her production from last season?



_________________
3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 8:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:

What does phillips reaching the playoffs in 2012 have anything to do with her production from last season?


You accused Phillips of being one of the main culprits in dallas finishing 2nd in assist,which is not true bacause she isn't one of the primary playmakers.Phillips finished almost last in usage rate.Then you pointed out dallas missing the playoffs as if there was some relation to the way Phillips played.You brought up the playoffs,not me.I just wanted to counter your argument and point out Phillips' high rate of making the playoffs.

WNBA 09 wrote:

The numbers speak for themselves. 2Nd to last in assist with phillips and sims pounding the ball for 20 seconds a possession and you miss the playoffs, But you want to see this again this season also?


Usage rate:

Bias-26.8
Powers-25.4
Sims-23.7
Diggins-23.4
Pierson-23.0
Hooper-19.7
Johnson-19.2
Plaisance-18.0
Christmas-17.9
Kiesel-14.7
Phillips-14.1
Paris-13.9

How can you criticize Erin's production when she play less than 15 mpg,and when she did play her usage rate was one of the lowest on the team.Erin's role on dallas is defense,spot up shooting and secondary ball handling.Phillips shot 44/38/90 last season,and her defensive impact does not show up on the stat sheet.


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63712



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 10:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They have those fancy defensive rating stats now at wnba.com, but people tend to ignore them when they don't say what is wanted.



_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
WNBA 09



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12493
Location: Dallas , Texas


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:

What does phillips reaching the playoffs in 2012 have anything to do with her production from last season?


You accused Phillips of being one of the main culprits in dallas finishing 2nd in assist,which is not true bacause she isn't one of the primary playmakers.Phillips finished almost last in usage rate.Then you pointed out dallas missing the playoffs as if there was some relation to the way Phillips played.You brought up the playoffs,not me.I just wanted to counter your argument and point out Phillips' high rate of making the playoffs.

WNBA 09 wrote:

The numbers speak for themselves. 2Nd to last in assist with phillips and sims pounding the ball for 20 seconds a possession and you miss the playoffs, But you want to see this again this season also?





Usage rate:

Bias-26.8
Powers-25.4
Sims-23.7
Diggins-23.4
Pierson-23.0
Hooper-19.7
Johnson-19.2
Plaisance-18.0
Christmas-17.9
Kiesel-14.7
Phillips-14.1
Paris-13.9

How can you criticize Erin's production when she play less than 15 mpg,and when she did play her usage rate was one of the lowest on the team.Erin's role on dallas is defense,spot up shooting and secondary ball handling.Phillips shot 44/38/90 last season,and her defensive impact does not show up on the stat sheet.


Again ..What does phillips not producing have to do with her making the 2012 playoffs ? Laughing i just read a bunch of rambling . Your in defense mode all because i stated she should NOT be starting this year for us here in Dallas and you go on a rampage . None of which has changed my mind on phillips not starting . Maybe 6th man off the bench but if she was such a game changer with her numbers then maybe her playing time would increase. She had her shot all season with diggins being out the beginning of the year so idk what the big deal is . Off the bench she comes



_________________
3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 11:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA 09 wrote:

Again ..What does phillips not producing have to do with her making the 2012 playoffs ? Laughing i just read a bunch of rambling . Your in defense mode all because i stated she should NOT be starting this year for us here in Dallas and you go on a rampage . None of which has changed my mind on phillips not starting . Maybe 6th man off the bench but if she was such a game changer with her numbers then maybe her playing time would increase. She had her shot all season with diggins being out the beginning of the year so idk what the big deal is . Off the bench she comes


1.Why are you trying to deflect ? You jumped into the conversation by making exaggerated claims of Phillips dribbling the ball for 20 seconds of the shot clock.Unlike your viewpoint,my opinion of the dallas rotation is more realistic and unbias.I gave two scenarios.One where Phillips would start and the other where Phillips comes off the bench.You on the other hand are close minded and believe Phillips should come off the bench no matter what.You made false claims about Phillips while i'm coming with facts based on critical thinking,stats and using the eye test.

2.Phillips played limited last season because Sims & Diggins are both 30+ minute players.Also,coach Williams unfortunately values offense over defense.


Shades wrote:
They have those fancy defensive rating stats now at wnba.com, but people tend to ignore them when they don't say what is wanted.


Defensive rating & plus/minus are deceptive stats,especially when you play limited minutes.




Last edited by zune69 on 03/05/17 3:30 pm; edited 7 times in total
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 11:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Shades wrote:
They have those fancy defensive rating stats now at wnba.com, but people tend to ignore them when they don't say what is wanted.


Defensive rating & plus/minus are deceptive stats,especially when you play limited minutes.


plus/minus is a joke, unless you really think Moriah Jefferson was really San Antonio's worst starter last season



_________________
Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
zune69



Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8180



Back to top
PostPosted: 03/05/17 11:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
zune69 wrote:
Shades wrote:
They have those fancy defensive rating stats now at wnba.com, but people tend to ignore them when they don't say what is wanted.


Defensive rating & plus/minus are deceptive stats,especially when you play limited minutes.


plus/minus is a joke, unless you really think Moriah Jefferson was really San Antonio's worst starter last season


Agreed......I feel the Same way about defensive rating.

Lavender,Zahui b,Lyttle and Bass all have better defensive ratings than B.Griner.

S.Schimmel has a better defensive rating than M.Moore.

KML has a better defensive rating than A.Clark.

Lavender and Parker have better defensive ratings than Ogwumike if that makes any sense.


Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » WNBA All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin