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AAOK423
Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 1109
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 02/23/17 11:01 pm ::: |
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Thanks for posting this. So great that all these current and former WNBA players are speaking out so powerfully.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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zvyn3
Joined: 20 Jul 2013 Posts: 418 Location: away from here
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Posted: 02/23/17 11:32 pm ::: |
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MuneravenMN wrote: |
Nixtreefan wrote: |
Thankfully Borders and Nneka Ogwumike handled the situation with class unlike some people on this board and on twitter, who in line with what Glenn said, seem to have fallen into the category of what Wiggins is referring to. |
If you boil it down to its essence, Candice is saying that other players bullied her because she was such a feminine beauty. That all the tomboys hated her for that reason. It has apparently never occurred to Ms. Wiggins that maybe the problem was her attitude or her behavior. It seems that she has never stopped to consider whether or not gay players had a hard time. Not once does she express any doubt that she handled everything perfectly. Not once does she seem to recognize that she could take a date anywhere with no worries while a lesbian teammate certainly could not do that in many places.
I don't feel obligated to handle a person as egocentric and lacking in empathy as Candice Wiggins with kid gloves. I think she said stupid things. I think she has a need for attention and didn't have the luck and talent to hold on to the spotlight via basketball. And she isn't a kid, so she needs to grow up and stop whining. |
Agree with this 100%.
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AAOK423
Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 1109
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Posted: 02/24/17 1:01 am ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
Thanks for posting this. So great that all these current and former WNBA players are speaking out so powerfully. |
No problem. Its always interesting and necessary to get more than one perspective. Im glad so many have spoken up.
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akronborn
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 1472 Location: Right Hynaw -- Cartman
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Posted: 02/24/17 5:26 am ::: |
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Is she going to respond directly to the many different people attesting to not having seen this, players from many different background, even 2 players who believe you can pray the gay away have said they haven't seen it. Is anyone going to do a sit down and have her respond to this? Because despite so many speaking out, I'm noticing on several sites that there's no knowledge of this, at all. They want to believe it's true and they're only aware of what she's accused and accepted it as fact. A nice sit down would at least bring to light that there's a different point of view.
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Hoops9092
Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 1639
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Posted: 02/24/17 5:59 am ::: |
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Not to play the contrary, but the obvious easy response is to support the league as the active players have done... I don't expect to see Breanna Stewart or even Rebecca Lobo saying "oh yeah Candice is totally right".
Candice notes she's had players reach out to her in support and thank her. Many who probably wouldn't go forth publicly as she had....
I'll pick up a copy of that book and be interested in seeing who besides Deanna Nolan sought after her.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 02/24/17 7:09 am ::: |
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I wonder what she sees as bullyin. For example if Nolan went extra hard in games against her and called her a bitch during those games. I dont know if i can see that as bullying. if she did those things because Wiggins is straight then its a whole other story.
Heck LJ and DMJ hated each other and always played on the edge of what is allowed and what is dirty. Some players just dont get along. I dont see that as bullying each other.. its part of the game.
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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caune
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 17919 Location: Valley of the Bun
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MuneravenMN Champion Tipster
Joined: 01 Jun 2008 Posts: 3990
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Posted: 02/24/17 7:51 am ::: |
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Nixtreefan wrote: |
Why would I even think that obvious victim blaming is a bad thing for women And some y'all wonder why WBB gets shit on.
And if your argument is she is not a victim, the problem with that is, not one person on this board knows whether she is or not but some of you have then done what she says goes on in the league - who is worse.
I see we have some "Mean Girls" needing some therapy for girl on girl crime. |
Do I think Wiggins had some workplace conflicts? Sure. I have. I've had people gang up on me at work. If Candice would have shared that she had workplace conflicts that really made it hard for her to enjoy playing in the WNBA, I would have great sympathy. These things happen and they are never easy to handle.
Instead, Candice used hyperbole to trash a whole group of people. She spit on the WNBA, diminishing its successes and dismissing it. Her comments showed a startling lack of critical thinking and perspective. And, as I noted previously, Wiggins, is not a youngster. She is a highly educated adult.
If you think anyone who screams "victim" is telling the objective truth, you're wrong. Quite often people holler "victim" when they ought to be hollering "consequences." People who observed Wiggins' behavior over her career are not being mean girls, they are expressing doubts based on Wiggins' own words and their observations of her behavior over time.
I should add that I DO feel sorry for Wiggins. Not because she was some victim of a lesbian jock mafia, but because I think she is struggling. She really did have lousy luck with injuries, and I am sure her life has not gone according to plan. That can be very hard. But she made her road harder with this boneheaded interview, not easier.
_________________ Winning takes talent; to repeat takes character.
--John Wooden
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24392 Location: London
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Posted: 02/24/17 7:55 am ::: |
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Always been a fan of Kayte, and she very clearly and explicitly calls bullshit on Candice. Although if she's going to point out the math flaws, it'd be nice if she'd get her own right. There's an absolute minimum of 132 in the League these days, and as most teams carry 12 it's usually over 140. |
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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005 Posts: 11188
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stever
Joined: 16 Nov 2004 Posts: 6918 Location: https://womensbasketballdaily.net
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Posted: 02/24/17 8:54 am ::: |
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Howard Megdal, in The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/feb/24/wnba-problem-straight-women-candice-wiggins
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Wiggins used her platform to denigrate the league, its current and former players, while opening up a sinister new line of attack on a league that, in conversations with players from every era, embraces every woman, regardless of background or sexual orientation, who can shoot or rebound or dish or protect the rim. No one has come forward to corroborate Wiggins’ claims. And that doesn’t invalidate Wiggins’ own experience. But it certainly casts doubts on the broad conclusions she made about the league as a whole. |
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2820 Location: New York
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Posted: 02/24/17 9:48 am ::: Re: Wiggins: WNBA's 'harmful' culture of bullying, jealousy |
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Great story here. I recently just got back from a business trip to Los Angeles. While sitting at the bar in LA Live, I started chatting up a woman who works in the Hollywood scene. However, I could tell she was an athlete. I started talking about my love of women's athletics, especially UCONN basketball and the WNBA. She then went on to tell me that she played Volleyball at UCLA in the late 70's, early 80's and that her daughter was a USC volleyball player recently. I asked her about her daughters pro career, whether it was beach or indoor. She told me, not the beach, there is no money in it and the women are CATTY! And once you wronged one of them, it got bad! So, good luck Candice.
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jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 7929
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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bcdawg04
Joined: 12 Apr 2016 Posts: 569 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 02/24/17 12:32 pm ::: |
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Hoops9092 wrote: |
Not to play the contrary, but the obvious easy response is to support the league as the active players have done... I don't expect to see Breanna Stewart or even Rebecca Lobo saying "oh yeah Candice is totally right".
Candice notes she's had players reach out to her in support and thank her. Many who probably wouldn't go forth publicly as she had....
I'll pick up a copy of that book and be interested in seeing who besides Deanna Nolan sought after her. |
Yeah, it could be difficult for current players who have had similar experiences to speak up. This is not Breanna Stewart's experience, though.
Here is Stewie's response:
Storm star Breanna Stewart supports investigation into WNBA abuse allegations
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“You have to respect Candice. And like I said, if that’s her story, it sucks that that happened. But there is a lot missing in this story. For the league to find what’s missing and put the pieces together, make more sense than just ‘I was straight, and I was bullied for it.’ There’s a lot more to it, I’m sure.” |
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Stewart, the 2016 Rookie of the Year winner, said she had a “great time” with the Storm.
“I know every team isn’t like that, but in my rookie season, I felt like everyone had open arms,” Stewart said. “I’ve never heard that it was an environment where you didn’t feel safe and you didn’t feel comfortable. If anything, it’s an environment where you should feel comfortable. It’s a place where nothing matters — race, sexuality — except whether you have game.” |
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AAOK423
Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 1109
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Posted: 02/24/17 3:21 pm ::: |
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Just saw Breanna Stewart's twitter, she has 13 tweets responding to Wiggins claims. She was also on The Six with Jamele Hill and Michael Smith talking about the claims but I think I missed it, if anyone has video it would be appreciated.
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 6191 Location: Chicago-ish
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Speebs56
Joined: 19 Aug 2015 Posts: 228 Location: Orange county, CA
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zvyn3
Joined: 20 Jul 2013 Posts: 418 Location: away from here
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Posted: 02/24/17 3:57 pm ::: |
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Hoops9092 wrote: |
Not to play the contrary, but the obvious easy response is to support the league as the active players have done... I don't expect to see Breanna Stewart or even Rebecca Lobo saying "oh yeah Candice is totally right".
Candice notes she's had players reach out to her in support and thank her. Many who probably wouldn't go forth publicly as she had....
I'll pick up a copy of that book and be interested in seeing who besides Deanna Nolan sought after her. |
Former players have done it too. And I don't buy her claim of players reaching out to thank her.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5391 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 02/24/17 6:09 pm ::: |
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I have been following this story from the beginning. I do have one question to ask. Where is Skylar? I thought her and Candice were best buddies. I have not heard one statement from her yet.
_________________ You can win, as long as you keep your head to the SKY! Be OPTIMISTIC!
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016 Posts: 1427
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 02/24/17 7:50 pm ::: |
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I took issue with the "nobody cares about the WNBA" even when Ice said it in her original podcast. I cared enough to go to DC. I cared enough to cheer so loudly with my friend that Candice herself acknowledged us when the game was over.
SHE herself cared enough to shoot free throws for 90 minutes in an empty MSG after missing 3 consecutive late-game free throws in a close defeat in 2015. She cared enough to be the most aggressive defender on the team. She cared enough to cheer from the sidelines like every game meant everything to her. None of this makes any sense to me.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016 Posts: 1427
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Posted: 02/24/17 8:57 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
SHE herself cared enough to shoot free throws for 90 minutes in an empty MSG after missing 3 consecutive late-game free throws in a close defeat in 2015. None of this makes any sense to me. |
I remember that game and felt so bad because of how hard she seemed to take missing those free throws. She was instrumental in even keeping them in the game! As a fan and supporter of the league, I'd always seen Candice as a fierce competitor and consummate teammate. She cheered so much even when she wasn't in games that a friend and I nicknamed her "SupaHype"!
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
I took issue with the "nobody cares about the WNBA" even when Ice said it in her original podcast. I cared enough to go to DC. I cared enough to cheer so loudly with my friend that Candice herself acknowledged us when the game was over. |
I hear you because I care about the league and the players. I've cared since the beginning and have been wrestling with this.... To be honest, this saga coupled with her podcasts from a few months ago make me worry about her. The podcasts were interesting but there was something that felt dark about them. I initially attributed it to the sobering feeling of hearing a player speak frankly about the business side of the league: struggling with the competition, injuries, the dramatic drop in fan support and trying to reconcile how you thought things would be versus how they are. Athletes are entertainers and some live and thrive off of the energy of the crowd ...What happens when you had this overwhelming sense of love, acceptance and support and now it's elusive? What is the impact of seriously not vibbing with your teammates... for whatever reason? What happens when you are hit with injury after injury and can no longer do your job at full capacity? When your game doesn't translate in the pros and you struggle with loosing and loose faith in your ability? What do you do after what you have given every inch of your body and your life to is gone? What happens when if for whatever reason, you don't live up your own expectations? Wiggins was 3rd in the 2008 draft after CP and Syl and still leads Stanford in many statistical categories. The expectations for her were high! What happens when you thought you'd be THAT player but ended up a 6th man and are possibly headed to your 5th team? Do you just say, "Enough" is Enough" I'm tired of being a commodity? Honestly, I thought that was why she decided to retire.
I suppose you search for the "whys"...So many athletes or any driven career professional struggles in retirement. Tully Bevaliqua tweeted this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/5-things-athletes-wont-admit-life-after-sport-greg-mumm which perhaps provides some perspective...
I can't discount her experiences or her perception of those experiences...because perception is reality. While so many have focused on the preposterous 98%, I was stumped by the claim that the type of bullying she spoke of is pervasive and condoned by coaches and leaders. I mean, this is extremely difficult to fathom, but I wasn't there and don't know how it may have felt to be her. I just wish all of this went down in a much more constructive and less denigrating fashion from all sides. Most of our MO's are to go up a chain of command when dealing with issues and try to handle it in house whenever possible (because of the larger implications). Now if the chain of command turns a deaf ear then..... With that said, I do recognize that we can't control people or the way they share their stories.
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