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Wiggins: WNBA's 'harmful' culture of bullying, jealousy
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Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bryan_february_ wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
Granted, I'm an old Queen, but I've never found her beautiful. Maybe it's because of my distaste for horse teeth and a snaggletooth. Maybe it's because she's too tiny or disproportionate. Regardless, many other players, suspected and known lesbians even in the WNBA, I find much prettier.

That was uncalled for. It's alarming how many people are responding to her claims of being bullied with personal insults and ridicule. I think the way Imani responded is the right approach to take to this.


Agreed. She's never been my type either, but that's not relevant to the discussion. As both Currie and Boyette brought up, perception is important; if she perceives herself as attractive, that's how she's going to approach a situation.



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Carol Anne



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tod Leonard, the San Diego UT's golf reporter, did three Candice Wiggins stories in 2 days. Will she have anything left for her book?

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/sd-sp-wiggins-20170218-story.html


adamj95



Joined: 09 May 2014
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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't buy that she was bullied. Does that mean Whalen and Wright were also bullied on the Lynx for being straight? This just gives the people who dislike the WNBA and women's basketball in general fuel to light the fire to their anti-wbb rhetoric. Sad that I used to like her as a player.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 02/22/17 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Carol Anne wrote:
Great column by Mechelle Voepel, who tried to talk with Wiggins.
http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/18736607/wnba-players-dispute-candice-wiggins-controversial-allegations

So when I contacted her, I wanted to ask: Did she report this alleged abuse to team management, human resources or the WNBA's front office? She played for four franchises in her eight-year career, and the coaching staffs for those teams were diverse, a mix of men and women, gay and straight people, and those of different races. Did they all turn a blind eye to the abuse that Wiggins alleges? Did they encourage it? Did she talk to other players about it?

But Wiggins told me she "was not comfortable" talking about her personal life, and that she hoped to publish a memoir that would detail these experiences and other issues. She also said she spoke to the Union-Tribune "as though they are an old friend."


she's clearly trying to dodge some bullets now. I'm assuming she's lost a lot of friends due to this & is clearly looking to make some $$$ in her retirement days.


These latest comments from Wiggins are an outrageous evasion. She's "not comfortable" talking about her personal life? How did her personal life become a public issue? Oh, yeh, she MADE IT a public issue. She spoke to the San Diego newspaper "as though they are an old friend"? Utter crap.



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 1:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
These latest comments from Wiggins are an outrageous evasion. She's "not comfortable" talking about her personal life? How did her personal life become a public issue? Oh, yeh, she MADE IT a public issue. She spoke to the San Diego newspaper "as though they are an old friend"? Utter crap.


Yes. Signs of an habitual liar.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 1:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
She's "not comfortable" talking about her personal life? How did her personal life become a public issue?


Not comfortable talking to Mechelle Voepel, who appeared to come at her with all the warmth of a district attorney.



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jmpenn90



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 1:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
She's "not comfortable" talking about her personal life? How did her personal life become a public issue?


Not comfortable talking to Mechelle Voepel, who appeared to come at her with all the warmth of a district attorney.

It doesn't have anything to do with Voepel. She wants to keep the details to herself so people buy the book. Or she didn't want to answer that specific question because the answer hurts her credibility if she never reported to anyone.


Skyfan22



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 1:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
bryan_february_ wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
Granted, I'm an old Queen, but I've never found her beautiful. Maybe it's because of my distaste for horse teeth and a snaggletooth. Maybe it's because she's too tiny or disproportionate. Regardless, many other players, suspected and known lesbians even in the WNBA, I find much prettier.

That was uncalled for. It's alarming how many people are responding to her claims of being bullied with personal insults and ridicule. I think the way Imani responded is the right approach to take to this.


Agreed. She's never been my type either, but that's not relevant to the discussion. As both Currie and Boyette brought up, perception is important; if she perceives herself as attractive, that's how she's going to approach a situation.


Her statements as a whole are akin to that of a tantrum thrown by a toddler. Coddling a tantrum of a toddler leads to a spoiled brat.

Coddling a spoiled brat leads to an entitled bitch.

Coddling an entitled bitch leads to Candice Wiggins.

She wants to call herself beautiful while implying, not so subtly, that the rest of the WNBA is not, invites criticism of her statement. I feel it should be stated loudly that there are a lot more women in the WNBA that are attractive and considered by a great many people to be more attractive then herself. Even those that appear to her as more manly may be considered more attractive. Maybe if she was not coddled and instead was educated about her ignorance it would change her entitled bitch perception.


Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 2:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
She's "not comfortable" talking about her personal life? How did her personal life become a public issue?


Not comfortable talking to Mechelle Voepel, who appeared to come at her with all the warmth of a district attorney.


I've talked to her multiple times. She's very personable and approachable. No way was it as a result of her tone.


Carol Anne



Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 02/22/17 2:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
She's "not comfortable" talking about her personal life? How did her personal life become a public issue?


Not comfortable talking to Mechelle Voepel, who appeared to come at her with all the warmth of a district attorney.


I've talked to her multiple times. She's very personable and approachable. No way was it as a result of her tone.
Mechelle is a journalist.
They ask questions (who, what, where, why, when and how).
The golf reporter apparently just transcribed what Wiggins said.


Nerd2



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 2:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

She claims she was bullied. Now she's not willing to speak any further because it is "personal?" That is pissing even more people off: leveling a very nasty accusation and not presenting any avenue to argue with it.

She was on 4 team. Her second team was supposed to be the Diggins and Wiggins Show with her good friend. Are you telling me that her friend bullied her too?

Anyone who buys that book should make sure they have a nice cheese to go with it.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 2:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
For that, she is the object of hostility and various forms of personal diminishment here . . . a reaction that lends truth to her story.


Why does it lend truth?

I think it depends on what it is "lending truth" toward. Her personal experiences with being bullied? Absolutely.

Would any of us have been surprised if Sophia Young released an article talking about how she was bullied by other players after her stand on the anti-discrimination law? We are a pretty decent microcosm of the league's ideology, which means it leans heavily toward liberal social views. And any time someone's views are outside of the norm of their social subset (and are open about them) they are at the risk of what I like to call "righteous bullying". People feel strongly that the views of the other are reprehensible, and thus take it out on the individual. They are so certain about their "rightness" and the other's "wrongness" that they don't just attack the idea, but go after the person. And when a group is heavily dominated with one specific view, those attacks can feel like an overwhelming barrage (ie: bullying).

The way Wiggins is coming across here, along with aspects of her personality that she openly admits to, suggests that she would be a prime candidate for this type of bullying.

Now, what this doesn't do is lend truth to her claims that this is a systemic league wide issue of gay vs. straight, where as Muneraven put it, there is some lesbian cabal out to control the league and discriminate and bully anyone who isn't gay. The fact that other players from all sorts of different backgrounds and beliefs have not encountered this suggests Wiggins' experiences are individual in nature. We should not minimize what this might have meant for her, as being a victim of bullying sucks and can be extremely harmful to a person, but we do also have the right to be critical of her league-wide claims that seem to be inaccurate.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 3:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Jet Jaguar wrote:
bryan_february_ wrote:
I don't like how people are assuming she's lying as if they know what's going on behind closed locker room doors. It's entirely possible that she's saying outlandish stuff to sell her book but I'm interested in hearing more about her personal experience.

If a gay player said she was bullied for being gay people would be furious and not question her; whether there were other players who experienced this or not. Since she's straight she gets dismissed as being a lier. Double standards much?

It's not that she was bullied that we question. That very well could be the case. It's her suggestion that she was bullied for being a heterosexual. That stretches credulity.


Well, not any more than being bullied for being gay stretches credulity. I mean, it's possible.

Candace was a long-time fave of mine, from her days at Stanford. Not a huge fan of the pros, I still enjoyed watching her time there, too.

Long before this story broke, though, I have had the distinct impression that Candace is a more....'fragile'....gal than average, on a mental/emotional level. Very intense, very sensitive, etc. Probably a big factor in her success. I don't doubt that her perceptions are real....to HER, at least. My biggest disappointment would lie in the possibility that she's doing this for publicity/book sales.

Re: The Situation in the league? Who can know the entire truth? I think it's safe to say that Candace's perceptions are not 100% accurate. I liked Nneka's statements on the situation.

And let's be honest: the wnba DOES present some....*unusual*....logistics in player dynamics. I mean, look at Phoenix's lineup: you could have had not ONE, but 2 "couples" playing on the floor at any given moment--Bonner/Dupree, and Taurasi/Taylor (or are they no longer together?). I couldn't begin to know if that's Good/Bad/Indifferent, but it's certainly...different. I can't begin to comprehend how that would play out in, say, the NBA. Shocked

Overall, Candace has done NO ONE any favors here, not even herself. I'd like to believe that the women who've devoted their lives to this sport are all committed to the professionalism that makes it a quality product, and tolerance is more the rule than the exception.

SCARIEST possible outcome:
Queenie wrote:
Somehow I get the feeling that this is going to end in religion.
Laughing Laughing Laughing



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 3:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
justintyme wrote:
It's not that she was bullied that we question. That very well could be the case. It's her suggestion that she was bullied for being a heterosexual. That stretches credulity.


Well, not any more than being bullied for being gay stretches credulity. I mean, it's possible.

You are right, of course. I wasn't as clear in this post as I should have been. I think I clarified it more in my other ones.

We have no reason to not accept that she believed/believes this is the reason for her bullying. And it very likely is rooted in some truth (ie: when she was being bullied, her heterosexuality was brought into it). What stretches credulity is that this is some sort of systemic issue of gay versus straight, or that it is a rampant problem throughout the league, versus isolated incidents.

We have ample evidence of a long standing social animus towards gay people that lead to bullying, and that in certain places that still exists. On the other hand, we don't have evidence of the WNBA as a whole holding this sort of animus towards straight people, and due to player testimony, quite a bit of evidence to suggest that they don't.



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AAOK423



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 3:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
And let's be honest: the wnba DOES present some....*unusual*....logistics in player dynamics. I mean, look at Phoenix's lineup: you could have had not ONE, but 2 "couples" playing on the floor at any given moment--Bonner/Dupree, and Taurasi/Taylor (or are they no longer together?). I couldn't begin to know if that's Good/Bad/Indifferent, but it's certainly...different. I can't begin to comprehend how that would play out in, say, the NBA. Shocked


But is it THAT unusual to other women's leagues though? I mean in the NWSL it was pretty widely known that Ashlyn Harris and Ali Krieger were dating. I don't follow that league very closely but I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't the only couple. With several openly gay players in that league someone could just as easily say that 98% of female soccer players are gay.

Fans of women's sports tend to be more tolerate and not care about a players sexuality...so players are more open.But if a man in the NBA, NFL, NHL, or MLB were playing and openly gay...even in 2017 it could hurt his career. But I don't think that means those gay athletes don't exist. Out of the thousands of men in those four leagues I would find it unbelievable that they are all straight. Hell, maybe some do have spouses on the same team or in the same league, it sure as hell isn't going to be talked about in a male league though. But I believe male sports leagues are 98% straight like I believe the WNBA is 98% gay.


hyperetic



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 4:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Jet Jaguar wrote:
bryan_february_ wrote:
I don't like how people are assuming she's lying as if they know what's going on behind closed locker room doors. It's entirely possible that she's saying outlandish stuff to sell her book but I'm interested in hearing more about her personal experience.

If a gay player said she was bullied for being gay people would be furious and not question her; whether there were other players who experienced this or not. Since she's straight she gets dismissed as being a lier. Double standards much?

It's not that she was bullied that we question. That very well could be the case. It's her suggestion that she was bullied for being a heterosexual. That stretches credulity.


Well, not any more than being bullied for being gay stretches credulity. I mean, it's possible.

Candace was a long-time fave of mine, from her days at Stanford. Not a huge fan of the pros, I still enjoyed watching her time there, too.

Long before this story broke, though, I have had the distinct impression that Candace is a more....'fragile'....gal than average, on a mental/emotional level. Very intense, very sensitive, etc. Probably a big factor in her success. I don't doubt that her perceptions are real....to HER, at least. My biggest disappointment would lie in the possibility that she's doing this for publicity/book sales.

Re: The Situation in the league? Who can know the entire truth? I think it's safe to say that Candace's perceptions are not 100% accurate. I liked Nneka's statements on the situation.

And let's be honest: the wnba DOES present some....*unusual*....logistics in player dynamics. I mean, look at Phoenix's lineup: you could have had not ONE, but 2 "couples" playing on the floor at any given moment--Bonner/Dupree, and Taurasi/Taylor (or are they no longer together?). I couldn't begin to know if that's Good/Bad/Indifferent, but it's certainly...different. I can't begin to comprehend how that would play out in, say, the NBA. Shocked

Overall, Candace has done NO ONE any favors here, not even herself. I'd like to believe that the women who've devoted their lives to this sport are all committed to the professionalism that makes it a quality product, and tolerance is more the rule than the exception.

SCARIEST possible outcome:
Queenie wrote:
Somehow I get the feeling that this is going to end in religion.
Laughing Laughing Laughing


Not exactly. There are well documented example of cases of violence, bullying to the point of suicide, refusal of services, funeral protests, etc. against gays. Not so much of heteros being bullied by LGBTQ for being hetero. Not saying its not possible. There is a lot of ignorance in the world but to put the possibility of it as the same for both I think is stretching it a bit.
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 4:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

hyperetic wrote:
Howee wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Jet Jaguar wrote:
bryan_february_ wrote:
I don't like how people are assuming she's lying as if they know what's going on behind closed locker room doors. It's entirely possible that she's saying outlandish stuff to sell her book but I'm interested in hearing more about her personal experience.

If a gay player said she was bullied for being gay people would be furious and not question her; whether there were other players who experienced this or not. Since she's straight she gets dismissed as being a lier. Double standards much?

It's not that she was bullied that we question. That very well could be the case. It's her suggestion that she was bullied for being a heterosexual. That stretches credulity.


Well, not any more than being bullied for being gay stretches credulity. I mean, it's possible.

Candace was a long-time fave of mine, from her days at Stanford. Not a huge fan of the pros, I still enjoyed watching her time there, too.

Long before this story broke, though, I have had the distinct impression that Candace is a more....'fragile'....gal than average, on a mental/emotional level. Very intense, very sensitive, etc. Probably a big factor in her success. I don't doubt that her perceptions are real....to HER, at least. My biggest disappointment would lie in the possibility that she's doing this for publicity/book sales.

Re: The Situation in the league? Who can know the entire truth? I think it's safe to say that Candace's perceptions are not 100% accurate. I liked Nneka's statements on the situation.

And let's be honest: the wnba DOES present some....*unusual*....logistics in player dynamics. I mean, look at Phoenix's lineup: you could have had not ONE, but 2 "couples" playing on the floor at any given moment--Bonner/Dupree, and Taurasi/Taylor (or are they no longer together?). I couldn't begin to know if that's Good/Bad/Indifferent, but it's certainly...different. I can't begin to comprehend how that would play out in, say, the NBA. Shocked

Overall, Candace has done NO ONE any favors here, not even herself. I'd like to believe that the women who've devoted their lives to this sport are all committed to the professionalism that makes it a quality product, and tolerance is more the rule than the exception.

SCARIEST possible outcome:
Queenie wrote:
Somehow I get the feeling that this is going to end in religion.
Laughing Laughing Laughing


Not exactly. There are well documented example of cases of violence, bullying to the point of suicide, refusal of services, funeral protests, etc. against gays. Not so much of heteros being bullied by LGBTQ for being hetero. Not saying its not possible. There is a lot of ignorance in the world but to put the possibility of it as the same for both I think is stretching it a bit.


Bullying is an ugly part of sports culture. It doesn't shock me that it could happen in the WNBA.

But false equivalencies are really tough to take. I live in Manhattan. Even in the most allegedly LGBT-friendly neighborhoods of Manhattan, there are homophobic and transphobic hate crimes on the streets, including murders. I've never read of gangs of gay men, lesbians, or people who are transgender roaming the streets and attacking and killing people perceived to be heterosexual.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 5:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I've never read of gangs of gay men, lesbians, or people who are transgender roaming the streets and attacking and killing people perceived to be heterosexual.


I don't think anyone was saying or even implying that the flipside is totally equivalent. But just cuz "reverse discrimination" isn't equal in quantity, doesn't make it IMPOSSIBLE, either. Even if Candace is THE ONLY ONE IN THE LEAGUE EVER, she deserves to be heard, BUT....she bears a huge load of accountability. And she seems to be ignorant of the broadness of her brushstrokes....that doesn't do her credibility any favors.



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Last edited by Howee on 02/22/17 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 5:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
I've never read of gangs of gay men, lesbians, or people who are transgender roaming the streets and attacking and killing people perceived to be heterosexual.


I don't think anyone was saying or even implying that the flipside is totally equivalent. But just cuz "reverse discrimination" isn't equal in quantity, doesn't make it IMPOSSIBLE, either. Even if Candace is THE ONLY ONE IN THE LEAGUE EVER, she deserves to be heard, BUT....she bears a huge load of accountability. And she seems to be ignorant of the broadness of her brushstrokes....that doesn't do her credibility on favors.


No, reverse discrimination isn't impossible. Every group has some bad people in it. And even if just one player in the WNBA is bullied for any reason, that player deserves to be heard. Absolutely.

But there have indeed been statements of false equivalency on this thread. And I find them offensive.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 6:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The streets of New York City or any city in the world are not a valid comparison for the WNBA. The WNBA is majority lesbian and 100% women. The streets of New York City are not. WNBA players are also playing a game in which they do little dirty illegal moves that people like to refer to as "being physical" so the personality makeup of players may differ to some degree from women in general.

But you hear about them getting along well enough that players go out to dinner with players on opposing teams. Wiggins may have the type of personality that tends to get picked on, whether it is in the office, the locker room, or the classroom. She's also writing a book, meaning things have to get exaggerated in order to sell it.


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PostPosted: 02/22/17 7:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I must say I personally didn't need further confirmation that Wiggins was an asshole.



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Last edited by cthskzfn on 02/22/17 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hoops9092



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Can you someone please find the interview in which Wiggins said she was targeted by Deanna Nolan as a rookie?

Apparently Nolan (lesbian?) said she was "going to get Wiggins" in her first game - IIRC?


miller40



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 7:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tara VanDerveer on the issue...

Quote:
“I don’t know why someone would take the shots,” VanDerveer said. “The WNBA is a young league. It’s doing really well. It’s what we’ve experienced in women’s sports. ... Women’s basketball is growing, but we still have a ways to go. We know this. It’s still a great game.”
Referring to Wiggins’ contention that 98 percent of WNBA players are gay, she said, “I don’t know that math was ever Candice’s strength. That to me sounds homophobic and negative.”


http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/article/Tara-VanDerveer-defends-WNBA-from-Candice-10952346.php


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PostPosted: 02/22/17 8:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lol re: the math comment!



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PostPosted: 02/22/17 8:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

WNBA sports writer has picked up the story;

http://www.twincities.com/2017/02/22/wnba-inexplicably-silent-in-wake-of-candice-wiggins-charges/


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