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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
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Posted: 02/21/17 8:32 pm ::: |
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WfanFrJmp wrote: |
Goodness, this whole thing is just....sad all around....
Great response from Imani. |
It is sad, but the thoughtful responses from women like Boyette and Curry and others are the silver lining in all this. The dialogue matters, even if many of us could think of better, more constructive ways for the dialogue to've gotten started.
I myself can't personally affirm or dispute anything Wiggins says, with the exception of her declaration that nobody cares about the WNBA. I know that she's wrong about that, because I fucking care about the WNBA, and so does my 12-year-old daughter, who's been accompanying me to Sparks games for about 8 years now, and who has seen with her own eyes the amazing women who've played there (and coached there, reffed there, administered there, and even sometimes owned the actual franchise during the years in question). I'm so happy that the WNBA exists for my daughter to see those women in action, and neither she nor I have ever once given a poop what gender of person those women are or aren't sexually attracted to in their off-time. It simply doesn't matter to us. We just love to watch 'em ball.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 02/21/17 8:46 pm ::: |
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MuneravenMN wrote: |
But there is no way there is some lesbian cabal that comprises 98% of WNBA players and goes around picking on the poor straight girls who play basketball.
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That's it exactly. I believe Wiggins when she says she was bullied. It happens, and locker rooms are ripe for that sort of cliquish behavior.
And it is very likely that she believes that the reason for this is because she's straight. We have no reason to not take her at her word for how she felt. However, once she extrapolates beyond herself and her own experiences the evidence and logic gets very thin. Her massive exaggeration of 98% and the testimony of numerous other heterosexual players all suggest that her experiences aren't the norm.
And when you do make those sorts of sweeping charges, you really do need to be able to back it up.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8234 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 02/21/17 9:23 pm ::: |
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Wiggins simply expressed her honest viewpoint and perceptions based on her experiences. For that, she is the object of hostility and various forms of personal diminishment here . . . a reaction that lends truth to her story. |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 02/21/17 9:31 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
For that, she is the object of hostility and various forms of personal diminishment here . . . a reaction that lends truth to her story. |
Why does it lend truth?
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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AAOK423
Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 1109
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Posted: 02/21/17 9:36 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Wiggins simply expressed her honest viewpoint and perceptions based on her experiences. For that, she is the object of hostility and various forms of personal diminishment here . . . a reaction that lends truth to her story. |
She's expressing her "honest viewpoints," that's fine. Imani Boyette and Currie and Bone and Dev Peters and so many others are expressing their honest viewpoints and perceptions based on their experiences, that seem to greatly differ from Wiggins. Is that not fine? And people here are expressing their honest viewpoints. If Wiggins can have a voice and trash the WNBA, why can't fans and former and current players defend the WNBA?
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 02/21/17 9:40 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Wiggins simply expressed her honest viewpoint and perceptions based on her experiences. |
Except she didn't "simply" do that. If she had just told her personal story, no one would be upset. But she made sweeping generalizations about the league as a whole and so other players who she is attempting to speak for are sharing their own experiences as evidence that her generalizations and assumptions are wrong. And if you are going to make sweeping claims about a group as a whole, and you don't back it up, you are likely to face hostility.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 5382 Location: Fayetteville
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Posted: 02/21/17 9:56 pm ::: |
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Its spreading about at fast as the Glory and Brittney thing... |
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 02/21/17 10:03 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Wiggins simply expressed her honest viewpoint and perceptions based on her experiences. |
Except she didn't "simply" do that. If she had just told her personal story, no one would be upset. But she made sweeping generalizations about the league as a whole and so other players who she is attempting to speak for are sharing their own experiences as evidence that her generalizations and assumptions are wrong. And if you are going to make sweeping claims about a group as a whole, and you don't back it up, you are likely to face hostility. |
Absolutely.
What Wiggins did has terrible consequences not only for WNBA players but for women and girls throughout the sports world.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014 Posts: 162
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Posted: 02/21/17 10:30 pm ::: |
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patsweetpat wrote: |
WfanFrJmp wrote: |
Goodness, this whole thing is just....sad all around....
Great response from Imani. |
It is sad, but the thoughtful responses from women like Boyette and Curry and others are the silver lining in all this. The dialogue matters, even if many of us could think of better, more constructive ways for the dialogue to've gotten started. |
Agreed. I just read Boyette's response - it's wonderful. & thank you for your own personal response. Sounds like you're an awesome dad.
There are several great posts in this thread from justintyme and others - thoughtful, patient and generous efforts to understand and offer perspective. The article's generalizations and division of gay/straight players were disappointing... but this dialogue is quite heartening.
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Richard 77
Joined: 19 Nov 2004 Posts: 4147 Location: Lake Mills, Wisconsin
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Posted: 02/21/17 10:42 pm ::: |
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Wiggins said she was disheartened by a culture in the WNBA that encouraged women to look and act like men in the NBA.
“It comes to a point where you get compared so much to the men, you come to mirror the men,’ she said. “So many people think you have to look like a man, play like a man to get respect. I was the opposite. I was proud to a be a woman, and it didn’t fit well in that culture.”
Of the league as a whole, Wiggins said, “Nobody cares about the WNBA. Viewership is minimal. Ticket sales are very low. They give away tickets and people don’t come to the game.” |
Part of her first statement I think is true. People tend to compare the women's game to the men's game too much instead of basing their opinion on the league's own merits and criteria. As for the 'looking like a man' statement, when a team, the league or a certain former player suggests that WNBA players should look more feminine, there tends to be more backlash by the fans then there is for that suggestion's support.
As for the 'Nobody cares' statement, she had to be aware that there WERE fans in the seats during the games she played in. The 'Nobody cares' statement is an outright lie. The reason many don't care about the WNBA is because no one teaches others how to care about the WNBA. The league hardly does, it's parent, the NBA hardly does, and its fans hardly do. One has to be taught how to love something. Or someone. We live in a culture now that has little attention span, and if something isn't exciting, we quit immediately from that something and we make up convenient excuses as to why not to bother. The WNBA. It's boring. The men's game is more exciting, it's more athletic. It's women. Too many lesbians.
Too many convenient excuses.
If she'd have really cared about her job, she'd know these things. And if the players really had a clue, maybe they'd learn how screwed they and their fans are getting by Rittenhouse and their trading card sets._________________ If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek |
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18042 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/21/17 10:46 pm ::: |
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Is it possible that people were assholes to her? Sure. Someone brought up Deanna Nolan earlier, either here or on Twitter, and God knows Tweety (and her tag-team partner Elaine Powell) was never the soul of diplomacy. Ask Cappie about that one.
Do I think it had anything to do with her being straight? Not simply because of it, but it depends on how she presented herself and how she interacted with her teammates and colleagues. If she came in acting like she deserved more because she's straight and feminine (attractiveness is a YMMV stat, let's not even), then yeah, I can see people telling her off.
Do I think there's a possibility that she walked in thinking that her shit didn't stink, and got her nose out of joint when someone informed her that her roses did in fact smell like doo-doo? Yep.
Do I think it's odd that either she alone, of all the straight players who have been in the league, has been the target of such terrible behavior, or that other straight players have been shamed into silence? Yeah. And we've seen responses from straight players saying, essentially, WTF. (Hell, I even went and asked one.)
Do I think it's more likely people were calling her bitch because of an attitude like this:
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I call myself “The WNBA’s Most Wanted.” As in, I’m wanted: dead or alive. I’m the villain. The other team hates me. People love playing with me, but I know they hate playing against me. If the WNBA ran a player poll, “Who do you hate the most?” — I know I’d be No. 1. I know that. |
On the court? Yeeeeeeeeah.
And I think it's possible she misread situations and made assumptions.
Then there's getting into the part of her interview that seems to have most people up in arms, which is the bit with the sweeping generalization and the bullshit numbers. Because that's what outlets who don't actually know what WNBA stands for are going to pick up on. That's the harmful stereotype that's once again going to spread, stronger now that it seems to be coming from the inside.
And going to volleyball? Yep, there's reinforcing another bunch of stereotypes about "dangerous" basketball and "safe" volleyball. (If she really thinks she's going to be free of jealousy and cliques and bullying in volleyball, especially coming into it fairly late in her career, as a second sport... girl, byeeeee.)
It's also possible we're missing a giant piece of the puzzle, but I don't find it bloody likely.
(Charde Houston's Facebook comments, as quoted before, aren't helping, but at the same time I'm grabbing my imaginary popcorn. And also marveling at intersectionality in action {socioeconomic status, how does it work?!} when Charde points out the difference in their upbringing.)
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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PhoenixxLily I Voted
Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 3909 Location: South Carolina, United States, North America, Earth
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Posted: 02/21/17 10:47 pm ::: |
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and Lobo weighs in...
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"I know I've been out of the league for a long time, but I can tell you that it [Wiggins recollections] was nothing like my experience as a heterosexual in the WNBA. I couldn't relate to what she was saying at all," Lobo said. "Covering the league, being around the league, having friends in the league who still play in the league, having frank conversations with those who are still in the league, I have never heard anyone say they've had those similar experiences or that they've witnessed anything similar to what Candice is talking about. But then again, that's her perception of what her experience was.
"But I can say that her assessment that 98 percent of the players in the league are gay is absurd. That's just ridiculous. Did I have teammates on my teams that were lesbians? Yes. But there was a mix of all different types of women. It wasn't even something you talked about. It was more, there's so-and-so with her girlfriend or so-and-so with her boyfriend and you would all go out to dinner together. [Players' sexuality] was a complete nonissue on all the teams I played on." |
http://www.courant.com/sports/basketball/hc-wiggins-wnba-0222-20170221-story.html
i found Wiggins' article to be a little more than disappointing. this is the first time i've heard of bullying in the W. that doesn't mean it hasn't or doesn't happen, just that that's not the sort of thing that stays quiet nor the type of thing you put up with for 8 years. i'm not buying it and i don't have much energy for giving the benefit of the doubt. it has everything to do with why she says she was bullied. and that she says that there is a nature of wanting everyone to be gay or present themselves as gay... really? in the wnba? the league that from day one desperately tried to push everyone in the closet and promoted that feminine ideal flat out. no. true, i was young when the league started and i missed alot but all i can think about is swoopes' situation. it's only very recently that the league has started to embrace all of its players but i still get the feeling that they'd rather no one comment on it for the same reasons that it wanted that hetero-normative look in the first place.
(Hey y'all!! i signed in after 2 years just to comment on this thread... i knew it would be here and i knew the commentary would be exemplary ) |
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miller40
Joined: 29 Jun 2006 Posts: 1334
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18042 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/21/17 11:13 pm ::: |
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Critical thinking, Candice. Get you some. It's in the same aisle as the clues.
I've never seen someone so adept and graceful at writing about herself... and so tone-deaf and ham-handed when discussing other people.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 Posts: 6191 Location: Chicago-ish
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Posted: 02/21/17 11:36 pm ::: |
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Wiggins is currently writing a book based on what she documented in journals during her WNBA career. She said her current comments are merely the “first layer” of what she has to say. |
'
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 7926
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Posted: 02/22/17 12:23 am ::: |
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I guess Wiggy never seriously considered the WNBA Players Association as an outlet for her concerns. She only played with the current president of the WNBAPA for an entire season, and Nneka appears to be so easily approachable.
Kudos to Boyette for graciously demanding more accountability from Ice on facts and more appreciation for a league that helped to increase her popularity and earning power.
_________________ Regards,
J A P
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8183
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Posted: 02/22/17 5:43 am ::: |
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http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/
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Saying her comments “freed my spirit,” Wiggins told the San Diego Union-Tribune that she received positive reaction from those close to her, as well as private thanks from other WNBA players who Wiggins said experienced what she did. |
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“It was my way to illustrate the isolation that I felt personally,” Wiggins said.“I felt like the 2 percent versus the 98 percent. It felt that way to me. And it’s not just the players. It was the coaches. It was the leaders.”
The WNBA has declined to respond to Wiggins’ comments.
Nneka Ogwumike, president of the WNBA Players Association, said in a statement: “Whether one agrees or disagrees with the comments made recently by a former player, or whether one has seen or experienced anything like what she has described, anything that impacts an inclusive culture should be taken seriously.” |
One thing I find odd is that people are quoting players like M.Bass/C.Anderson(Holy Rollers/anti gay),and R.Lobo(Geno/Parker/Ogwumike Olympic fiasco) as credible sources for information.Lobo gets her paychecks from espn/wnba.
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MuneravenMN Champion Tipster
Joined: 01 Jun 2008 Posts: 3990
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Posted: 02/22/17 7:35 am ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Wiggins simply expressed her honest viewpoint and perceptions based on her experiences. For that, she is the object of hostility and various forms of personal diminishment here . . . a reaction that lends truth to her story. |
So if I ride the bus and a bunch of Black teenagers routinely yell insults and curse and misbehave, is it then okay for me to proclaim that 98% of bus riders are Black people who bully poor White ladies like me?
OR can I tell the story of my unpleasant bus rides without impugning all bus riders, all Black people, and painting myself as a victim?
How we tell our stories matters.
_________________ Winning takes talent; to repeat takes character.
--John Wooden
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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013 Posts: 526
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Posted: 02/22/17 9:36 am ::: |
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To me, it doesn't sound like reflections of a victim. It sounds more like the bitter, jealous rantings of a golden-spooned egomaniac. She was tops from birth through college in her sunny California world. I remember some commentary during the final stating that if Stanford had won she might actually go 1st in the draft. Her status in the WNBA never came close to where she was in college. I think she's a spoiled little b***** who is ill equipped to process not being WNBA royalty. For me, Granting her musings as her truth is allowing too much. Either 1, she is trying to garner attention grabbing via manufactured nonsense or 2, she seriously needs to be awakened from her disillusionment of deserving adoration from the masses.
there is more I disagree with in her statements. Granted, I'm an old Queen, but I've never found her beautiful. Maybe it's because of my distaste for horse teeth and a snaggletooth. Maybe it's because she's too tiny or disproportionate. Regardless, many other players, suspected and known lesbians even in the WNBA, I find much prettier.
Finally, by stating this stuff, could there be a cause of action for the WNBA in libel/slander? Some statements are blatantly false. Some are opinion but still very colored to mislead. Is that a question of fact to be determined in court. I also, don't know if I've ever heard of an organization making a defamation claim. Is that possible? There seem to be legal scholars here who would know. Any thoughts?
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18042 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/22/17 9:47 am ::: |
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zune69 wrote: |
One thing I find odd is that people are quoting players like M.Bass/C.Anderson(Holy Rollers/anti gay),and R.Lobo(Geno/Parker/Ogwumike Olympic fiasco) as credible sources for information.Lobo gets her paychecks from espn/wnba. |
In some ways, Anderson's past stances make her a more credible source- after all, wouldn't she have been a target if Wiggins is on the money about the scary lesbians menacing the pretty straight girls?
I find it interesting that Wiggins claims she's gotten thanks from other players who have suffered this... but no one else has corroborated any of the behavior she describes, and the spectrum of players who have WTF'd it covers pretty much every year and every team.
Somehow I get the feeling that this is going to end in religion.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
Last edited by Queenie on 02/22/17 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 02/22/17 9:47 am ::: |
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Skyfan22 wrote: |
To me, it doesn't sound like reflections of a victim. It sounds more like the bitter, jealous rantings of a golden-spooned egomaniac. She was tops from birth through college in her sunny California world. I remember some commentary during the final stating that if Stanford had won she might actually go 1st in the draft. Her status in the WNBA never came close to where she was in college. I think she's a spoiled little b***** who is ill equipped to process not being WNBA royalty. For me, Granting her musings as her truth is allowing too much. Either 1, she is trying to garner attention grabbing via manufactured nonsense or 2, she seriously needs to be awakened from her disillusionment of deserving adoration from the masses.
there is more I disagree with in her statements. Granted, I'm an old Queen, but I've never found her beautiful. Maybe it's because of my distaste for horse teeth and a snaggletooth. Maybe it's because she's too tiny or disproportionate. Regardless, many other players, suspected and known lesbians even in the WNBA, I find much prettier.
Finally, by stating this stuff, could there be a cause of action for the WNBA in libel/slander? Some statements are blatantly false. Some are opinion but still very colored to mislead. Is that a question of fact to be determined in court. I also, don't know if I've ever heard of an organization making a defamation claim. Is that possible? There seem to be legal scholars here who would know. Any thoughts? |
I'm not a legal scholar, but I believe it would be a disaster for the WNBA to bring any type of case against Candice Wiggins. Homophobes in the media and homophobic organizations would come rushing to her defense. We would see an endless array of "alternative facts" (like the 98% figure she has offered). Win or lose, any legal action against Wiggins would bring far more negative publicity for the WNBA than her recent statements or her book.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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bryan_february_
Joined: 28 Aug 2015 Posts: 704 Location: USA
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Posted: 02/22/17 10:04 am ::: |
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Skyfan22 wrote: |
Granted, I'm an old Queen, but I've never found her beautiful. Maybe it's because of my distaste for horse teeth and a snaggletooth. Maybe it's because she's too tiny or disproportionate. Regardless, many other players, suspected and known lesbians even in the WNBA, I find much prettier. |
That was uncalled for. It's alarming how many people are responding to her claims of being bullied with personal insults and ridicule. I think the way Imani responded is the right approach to take to this.
_________________ Indiana Fever
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005 Posts: 1739 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 02/22/17 10:31 am ::: |
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Great column by Mechelle Voepel, who tried to talk with Wiggins.
http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/18736607/wnba-players-dispute-candice-wiggins-controversial-allegations
So when I contacted her, I wanted to ask: Did she report this alleged abuse to team management, human resources or the WNBA's front office? She played for four franchises in her eight-year career, and the coaching staffs for those teams were diverse, a mix of men and women, gay and straight people, and those of different races. Did they all turn a blind eye to the abuse that Wiggins alleges? Did they encourage it? Did she talk to other players about it?
But Wiggins told me she "was not comfortable" talking about her personal life, and that she hoped to publish a memoir that would detail these experiences and other issues. She also said she spoke to the Union-Tribune "as though they are an old friend."
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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013 Posts: 526
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Posted: 02/22/17 10:37 am ::: |
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So thankful for your opinion as to how I should approach the princess and her tantrum. I believe her behavior warrants a different approach.
If this is her reality. Then someone needs to wake her ass up. She's not all that, she's not a princess, she needs to grow up and stop being a spoiled little b****
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22477 Location: NJ
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Posted: 02/22/17 10:47 am ::: |
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Carol Anne wrote: |
Great column by Mechelle Voepel, who tried to talk with Wiggins.
http://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/18736607/wnba-players-dispute-candice-wiggins-controversial-allegations
So when I contacted her, I wanted to ask: Did she report this alleged abuse to team management, human resources or the WNBA's front office? She played for four franchises in her eight-year career, and the coaching staffs for those teams were diverse, a mix of men and women, gay and straight people, and those of different races. Did they all turn a blind eye to the abuse that Wiggins alleges? Did they encourage it? Did she talk to other players about it?
But Wiggins told me she "was not comfortable" talking about her personal life, and that she hoped to publish a memoir that would detail these experiences and other issues. She also said she spoke to the Union-Tribune "as though they are an old friend." |
she's clearly trying to dodge some bullets now. I'm assuming she's lost a lot of friends due to this & is clearly looking to make some $$$ in her retirement days.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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