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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 02/20/17 6:12 pm ::: |
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When she retired, she said it was due to her injuries. Now I don't really know what to believe.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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MuneravenMN Champion Tipster
Joined: 01 Jun 2008 Posts: 3990
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Posted: 02/20/17 6:14 pm ::: I Shall Be Polite. . . .I Shall Be Polite |
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A pretty, heterosexual, educated, PRIVILEGED woman claiming that the mean old lesbians bullied her is exactly as stupid as some White guy claiming that Black people are racist. Yeah, sorry Candice, but you don't get to go there. You have straight privilege. You got to walk out of the locker room every day and be totally accepted by the vast majority of humanity.
Meanwhile, all the Minnesotan butch lesbians sitting in the stands cheering for you and rooting for you and buying season tickets to make sure you got paid? Those women have had to deal with fear, rejection from their own families, strangers calling them names. But they accepted you and encouraged you and followed you even after you left Minnesota.
And the WNBA lesbian players couldn't really be out when Candice was playing. Every gay WNBA player grew up in a culture where Candice Wiggins was the ideal and being queer meant you were inferior and wrong.
I am not going to call Candice Wiggins names. I am disappointed that a young woman with a fine college education could be so ignorant about her own privilege and what it might be like to not have what she has. I find her sadly lacking in empathy. I find her sadly lacking in gratitude.
I find it very easy to believe that any bullying she may have experienced came as a result of her own self-absorption as evidenced by what she has to say.
In closing I would like to say that I sincerely hope that 98% of the women in the WNBA are lesbian. Because, in the immortal words of Kristen Stewart: "Dude, I am, like, SO gay."
_________________ Winning takes talent; to repeat takes character.
--John Wooden
Last edited by MuneravenMN on 02/20/17 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7392 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 02/20/17 6:15 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
I can believe that Candice Wiggins was bullied. I can believe that there were lesbian players who treated her badly. All sports cultures, like all non-sports cultures, have bad people in them. All groups have bad people in them.
But the unqualified attack that Wiggins has launched will, in my view, hurt every lesbian, bisexual, transgender, or questioning female athlete. It goes far beyond the WNBA. Wiggins wants to play beach volleyball. What she's done will hurt lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and questioning women and girls in the volleyball world.
Wiggins' statements will be ammunition for every sexist, homophobic bigot and especially for every sexist, homophobic bigot who wants to trash women's sports.
Candice Wiggins could have found a way of talking about painful experiences she's had without using them to present a wide-ranging smear. |
Thank you Bob for calling this trash out for what it is. She comes off as a whiny little b--- and based solely on what she chose to share, it's no wonder players of all sexualities called her what she is.
"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." Honey, you ain't all that. And that's not why they hate you. You just full of hate yourself. Classic projection.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9659
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9659
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Posted: 02/20/17 6:36 pm ::: |
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scullyfu wrote: |
and her 98% of the league being gay also seems high. |
Yeah, Sue Wicks and some former ABL player both estimated it as "more than 50%", but 98% seems way too high. That would mean 3 players are straight.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21944
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Posted: 02/20/17 6:46 pm ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
scullyfu wrote: |
and her 98% of the league being gay also seems high. |
Yeah, Sue Wicks and some former ABL player both estimated it as "more than 50%", but 98% seems way too high. That would mean 3 players are straight. |
It's pretty clearly a ridiculous "estimate"
Unfortunately I think that her Trumping up that figure has made a mockery of her whole stance, and therefore potentially hurt the credibility of some valid points she might also have had, which is a pity.
The whole thing rubs me up the wrong way though. I don't doubt that there are mean people in the league (of all orientations, colours, etc.) but I don't like the underlying implication that even if the real number is 98%, that players are going to band together and bully someone just because they are straight. I suspect that this might be closer to the mark of what's really going on:
@womensbball247 wrote: |
The B word will float around during games but i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with your sexuality and more to do with just being a B... |
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 02/20/17 6:54 pm ::: |
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Here's a bit of history. In 2000, Alisa Solomon, an outstanding journalist in New York City, was covering the New York Liberty for the sports page of the Village Voice. She did an interview with Sue Wicks in which she asked about lesbian players in the WNBA. Wicks replied: "I can't say how many players are gay, but it would be easier to count the straight ones." Wicks also said she found it "annoying" how the WNBA was almost exclusively promoting players who were in heterosexual marriages and were mothers.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/sue-wickss-forward-behavior-6417883
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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akronborn
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 1472 Location: Right Hynaw -- Cartman
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7392 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:00 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
I suspect that this might be closer to the mark of what's really going on:
@womensbball247 wrote: |
The B word will float around during games but i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with your sexuality and more to do with just being a B... |
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Yep, Mo sums it up pretty well. Act like a mosquito and people will slap the sh-t out of you. Unrelated to sexuality.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:19 pm ::: |
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Here is what's most important to me in this discussion.
We know that 98% of the players in the WNBA aren't lesbians. Given how highly closeted some people are--some of them in longtime heterosexual marriages--I don't believe there's anyone who can know for sure how many WNBA players are lesbians. But let's say for the sake of argument that lesbians are either a majority of WNBA players or a substantial majority.
How many of those lesbian players are fully out? A small percentage. The same for lesbian athletes in other sports. The same for lesbian coaches throughout sports.
Even with the advances our country has seen regarding LGBT rights, the vast majority of lesbian athletes and lesbian coaches don't feel comfortable or safe coming out. To be as clear as possible, I say this without a word of criticism for any of these athletes and coaches.
I am a passionate fan of a sport where this is the reality for many of the players and coaches I cheer on. They don't feel they can be honest about who they are. That makes me very sad and very angry.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:25 pm ::: |
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Wiggins signed with the Liberty on March 9, 2015 and she retired on March 22, 2016. Given that free agency starts on February, 1, Candice hung out there for a long time in both cases. I suspect there wasn't much interest, and any offers were probably for a low salary. She could just be feeling bitter about the rejection. During the middle of last season, she suddenly posted something about being not retired. It almost sounded like she was sending out a signal that she still wanted to play.
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone.
I also remember that there were three opponents that season who wanted to beat the crap out of her. Zellous and TRP were two of them, and I think Christmas was the third. It didn't look like it had anything to do with Candice being straight. It was just the physical way Wiggins was defending them, and maybe she was jawing at them too.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21944
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:32 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone. |
Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...)
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005 Posts: 4929
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:37 pm ::: |
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There was an article that came out less than a year before she retired where she talked about how she made defense and getting into the head of the opposition her calling card. embrace that role if that is the identity you wish to establish. But that comes with repercussions.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:42 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone. |
Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...) |
Exactly right.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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AAOK423
Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 1109
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Posted: 02/20/17 7:56 pm ::: |
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Serious question: Why did the San Diego Union-Tribune publish this? Who is Todd Leonard and why didn't he seem to get any other sources then Wiggins? I mean if you are going to write an article claiming that a league that is tied closely to the NBA has a culture of bullying and everyone is gay and all straight players get harassed then wouldn't you want more then one source to make such a bold claim?
I mean, this article...true or false, or kinda true or kinda false can easily feed into the all trolls that trash the WNBA like its their job . And like stated by others it can make things more difficult for gay athletes.
I haven't seen one player yet say "yep, Wiggins is totally right. I have had the same experience" but I have seen many WNBA players tweeting out against what she said, and claiming that its false.
So why didn't Todd Leonard do more research? Talk to more WNBA players? Make sure that the person they were writing on article on was credible and not just a bitter former employee?
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 02/20/17 8:00 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
Luuuc wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone. |
Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...) |
Exactly right. |
True, but Candice is claiming that she was harassed for being straight and feminine. Even if you're a closeted lesbian, you're not going to intimidate someone for being what you're pretending to be. Or if you're a lipstick lesbian (is that term still used?), you're certainly not going to get on someone's case for being feminine.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21944
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Posted: 02/20/17 8:01 pm ::: |
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Todd Leonard. Can't even count to 12. Nuff said.
Once he ran out of fingers and there were still teams left it really should have tipped him off that the number was not 10 though.
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9659
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Posted: 02/20/17 8:12 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone. |
Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...) |
Yep, I was thinking about making a list of married players and offering it as proof of more straight players than 2%, and I did a search and found "WNBA players married to NBA players". They gave Jason Collins and (former Stanford player) Carolyn Moos as one of only three examples. (Candace Parker and Monica Wright being the other two). But Jason Collins is now famous for being the first active NBA player to come out.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9659
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Posted: 02/20/17 8:16 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
How many of those lesbian players are fully out? A small percentage. The same for lesbian athletes in other sports. The same for lesbian coaches throughout sports.
Even with the advances our country has seen regarding LGBT rights, the vast majority of lesbian athletes and lesbian coaches don't feel comfortable or safe coming out. To be as clear as possible, I say this without a word of criticism for any of these athletes and coaches.
I am a passionate fan of a sport where this is the reality for many of the players and coaches I cheer on. They don't feel they can be honest about who they are. That makes me very sad and very angry. |
I wonder if the closeted WNBA players are re-thinking things now that Augustus, McCoughtry, Griner, Delle Donne (1/3 of the Olympic team) and others are now out and there was no backlash against them.
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Youth Coach
Joined: 23 Mar 2008 Posts: 4760
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Posted: 02/20/17 8:41 pm ::: |
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I'm still trying to get over the "heterosexual and straight" line. |
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mb1
Joined: 09 Feb 2006 Posts: 4691 Location: Scottsdale,AZ,USA
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Posted: 02/20/17 8:44 pm ::: |
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Spot on analysis from WNBA Fans Nation (not to be confused with WNBA Fan's Page) :
The points Candice Wiggins makes and my opinions regarding them (sorry, a bit long):
1) "the league is 98% gay." It's higher than the national norm - I put it at about 50% - but even on her team there were stars who are straight. Many of the players who are gay don't hide it but also don't come right out and say it. We just tend to let them be and not make a big deal about it.
2) "I was called a B!TCH". I actually heard her called that... on the court. She was one of the biggest trash talkers I'd ever heard and an aggressive defender. In fact, I wanted to call her that myself a few times when I felt she was getting away with stuff. I know that she had an arrogance as a rookie that rubbed people the wrong way and I could see some vigorous defending happening as a result.
3) "people don’t come to the game" She mostly played for Minnesota, a team whose success brought a lot of people to the games. I've been there maybe a dozen times. That crowd is great.
4) "she was disheartened by a culture in the WNBA that encouraged women to look and act like men" There's a uniform code but it's identical to what's in college. Players when traveling are also sometimes expected to be in team shirt and sweats. But no one stopped Tina Thompson from wearing lipstick and no one regulated them when they were not representing the team.
5) "asserts she was targeted for harassment from the time she was drafted by Minnesota because she is heterosexual and a nationally popular figure, of whom many other players were jealous." "Wiggins said she is writing an autobiography with the working title, “The WNBA Diaries,” based on her journals as a player." These are really the money quotes. This is a player who had a very good career in college and came into the league expecting to be a "face" similar to how Skylar Diggins is. She'd earned her starting spot but got the first in a long list of injuries in 2010. The next year, she came back and had lost it: Monica Wright had come in and taken over 6th woman and they drafted Maya Moore. Wiggins became the 3 point specialist on that team instead of the star she felt she could be. She WANTED to be "nationally popular" but that wasn't true even when she was a starter because the Lynx were not good and therefore didn't get attention.
She's writing a book. She's hinting at all sorts of secrets to be revealed and dirt to be dished. She's got people talking about her. That was the aim of this interview. Never mind who she might hurt along the way. I am dismissing much of it as an attempt to get attention.
_________________ I've got a crush on Rebby!
LONG LIVE THE WNBA!
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umbeta1455
Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 1897 Location: Maine
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Posted: 02/20/17 9:26 pm ::: |
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The lady doth protest too much....
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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005 Posts: 11188
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Posted: 02/20/17 10:01 pm ::: |
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Did Sophia Young write the excerpt of this book?
_________________ I'm all for the separation of church and hate.
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Genero36
Joined: 24 Apr 2005 Posts: 11188
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18042 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/20/17 10:32 pm ::: |
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We know at least one locker room she was in was toxic, or at least hazardous to one's health. Is it possible that she just assumed general asshattery was about her specifically?
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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