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Wiggins: WNBA's 'harmful' culture of bullying, jealousy
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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When she retired, she said it was due to her injuries. Now I don't really know what to believe.



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MuneravenMN
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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:14 pm    ::: I Shall Be Polite. . . .I Shall Be Polite Reply Reply with quote

A pretty, heterosexual, educated, PRIVILEGED woman claiming that the mean old lesbians bullied her is exactly as stupid as some White guy claiming that Black people are racist. Yeah, sorry Candice, but you don't get to go there. You have straight privilege. You got to walk out of the locker room every day and be totally accepted by the vast majority of humanity.

Meanwhile, all the Minnesotan butch lesbians sitting in the stands cheering for you and rooting for you and buying season tickets to make sure you got paid? Those women have had to deal with fear, rejection from their own families, strangers calling them names. But they accepted you and encouraged you and followed you even after you left Minnesota.

And the WNBA lesbian players couldn't really be out when Candice was playing. Every gay WNBA player grew up in a culture where Candice Wiggins was the ideal and being queer meant you were inferior and wrong.

I am not going to call Candice Wiggins names. I am disappointed that a young woman with a fine college education could be so ignorant about her own privilege and what it might be like to not have what she has. I find her sadly lacking in empathy. I find her sadly lacking in gratitude.

I find it very easy to believe that any bullying she may have experienced came as a result of her own self-absorption as evidenced by what she has to say.

In closing I would like to say that I sincerely hope that 98% of the women in the WNBA are lesbian. Because, in the immortal words of Kristen Stewart: "Dude, I am, like, SO gay."



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Last edited by MuneravenMN on 02/20/17 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I can believe that Candice Wiggins was bullied. I can believe that there were lesbian players who treated her badly. All sports cultures, like all non-sports cultures, have bad people in them. All groups have bad people in them.

But the unqualified attack that Wiggins has launched will, in my view, hurt every lesbian, bisexual, transgender, or questioning female athlete. It goes far beyond the WNBA. Wiggins wants to play beach volleyball. What she's done will hurt lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and questioning women and girls in the volleyball world.

Wiggins' statements will be ammunition for every sexist, homophobic bigot and especially for every sexist, homophobic bigot who wants to trash women's sports.

Candice Wiggins could have found a way of talking about painful experiences she's had without using them to present a wide-ranging smear.


Thank you Bob for calling this trash out for what it is. She comes off as a whiny little b--- and based solely on what she chose to share, it's no wonder players of all sexualities called her what she is.

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." Honey, you ain't all that. And that's not why they hate you. You just full of hate yourself. Classic projection.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

petrel wrote:


Furthermore, there's not going to be some bastion of straight sports either. Volleyball's players might be more feminine in some people's eyes, but it's more likely that those players are more closeted.


Are lesbians over-represented in all women sports? I know a guy got fired for talking about how many lesbians were in golf, and golf really isn't even a sport.

Some of the women's softball teams (but I think it is going away) wear ribbons in their hair, which to me is trying too hard to look feminine, and maybe straight as well.



tfan



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
and her 98% of the league being gay also seems high.


Yeah, Sue Wicks and some former ABL player both estimated it as "more than 50%", but 98% seems way too high. That would mean 3 players are straight.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
scullyfu wrote:
and her 98% of the league being gay also seems high.


Yeah, Sue Wicks and some former ABL player both estimated it as "more than 50%", but 98% seems way too high. That would mean 3 players are straight.

It's pretty clearly a ridiculous "estimate"
Unfortunately I think that her Trumping up that figure has made a mockery of her whole stance, and therefore potentially hurt the credibility of some valid points she might also have had, which is a pity.

The whole thing rubs me up the wrong way though. I don't doubt that there are mean people in the league (of all orientations, colours, etc.) but I don't like the underlying implication that even if the real number is 98%, that players are going to band together and bully someone just because they are straight. I suspect that this might be closer to the mark of what's really going on:
@womensbball247 wrote:
The B word will float around during games but i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with your sexuality and more to do with just being a B...



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here's a bit of history. In 2000, Alisa Solomon, an outstanding journalist in New York City, was covering the New York Liberty for the sports page of the Village Voice. She did an interview with Sue Wicks in which she asked about lesbian players in the WNBA. Wicks replied: "I can't say how many players are gay, but it would be easier to count the straight ones." Wicks also said she found it "annoying" how the WNBA was almost exclusively promoting players who were in heterosexual marriages and were mothers.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/sue-wickss-forward-behavior-6417883



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akronborn



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
she's heterosexual and straight? isn't it given that heterosexual = straight?



Heterosexual but not straight would be bisexual, for example. Smile..Do we really need an explicit reason for her retiring? She avg'd fewer than 2 points in 14, and fewer than 3 in 2015. It's not like Ogwumike (LA) or another valuable players like that decided to call it quits.



Everyone wants to be oppressed soooo bad these days.


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I suspect that this might be closer to the mark of what's really going on:
@womensbball247 wrote:
The B word will float around during games but i'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with your sexuality and more to do with just being a B...


Yep, Mo sums it up pretty well. Act like a mosquito and people will slap the sh-t out of you. Unrelated to sexuality.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here is what's most important to me in this discussion.

We know that 98% of the players in the WNBA aren't lesbians. Given how highly closeted some people are--some of them in longtime heterosexual marriages--I don't believe there's anyone who can know for sure how many WNBA players are lesbians. But let's say for the sake of argument that lesbians are either a majority of WNBA players or a substantial majority.

How many of those lesbian players are fully out? A small percentage. The same for lesbian athletes in other sports. The same for lesbian coaches throughout sports.

Even with the advances our country has seen regarding LGBT rights, the vast majority of lesbian athletes and lesbian coaches don't feel comfortable or safe coming out. To be as clear as possible, I say this without a word of criticism for any of these athletes and coaches.

I am a passionate fan of a sport where this is the reality for many of the players and coaches I cheer on. They don't feel they can be honest about who they are. That makes me very sad and very angry.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wiggins signed with the Liberty on March 9, 2015 and she retired on March 22, 2016. Given that free agency starts on February, 1, Candice hung out there for a long time in both cases. I suspect there wasn't much interest, and any offers were probably for a low salary. She could just be feeling bitter about the rejection. During the middle of last season, she suddenly posted something about being not retired. It almost sounded like she was sending out a signal that she still wanted to play.

Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone.

I also remember that there were three opponents that season who wanted to beat the crap out of her. Zellous and TRP were two of them, and I think Christmas was the third. It didn't look like it had anything to do with Candice being straight. It was just the physical way Wiggins was defending them, and maybe she was jawing at them too.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone.

Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...)



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NoDakSt



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There was an article that came out less than a year before she retired where she talked about how she made defense and getting into the head of the opposition her calling card. embrace that role if that is the identity you wish to establish. But that comes with repercussions.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone.

Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...)


Exactly right.



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Let's remember Anucha Browne, who was sexually harassed by Isiah Thomas. In recent years, she served as a vice president of the NCAA focusing on women's basketball championships. Now she is part of the Senior Management Team of UNICEF USA.
AAOK423



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Serious question: Why did the San Diego Union-Tribune publish this? Who is Todd Leonard and why didn't he seem to get any other sources then Wiggins? I mean if you are going to write an article claiming that a league that is tied closely to the NBA has a culture of bullying and everyone is gay and all straight players get harassed then wouldn't you want more then one source to make such a bold claim?

I mean, this article...true or false, or kinda true or kinda false can easily feed into the all trolls that trash the WNBA like its their job . And like stated by others it can make things more difficult for gay athletes.

I haven't seen one player yet say "yep, Wiggins is totally right. I have had the same experience" but I have seen many WNBA players tweeting out against what she said, and claiming that its false.

So why didn't Todd Leonard do more research? Talk to more WNBA players? Make sure that the person they were writing on article on was credible and not just a bitter former employee?


root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone.

Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...)


Exactly right.


True, but Candice is claiming that she was harassed for being straight and feminine. Even if you're a closeted lesbian, you're not going to intimidate someone for being what you're pretending to be. Or if you're a lipstick lesbian (is that term still used?), you're certainly not going to get on someone's case for being feminine.



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Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Luuuc



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Todd Leonard. Can't even count to 12. Nuff said.
Once he ran out of fingers and there were still teams left it really should have tipped him off that the number was not 10 though.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Regarding there being just 3 straight players in the league, Candice's 2015 Liberty team had Cash and Warley-Talbert married to men and Kiah Stokes had a boyfriend. So, that's four just on her team alone.

Side note, I know speculation is always going to happen, and I'm not disputing anything about any particular player, but for me personally I don't think that being pregnant or being married to a man or having a boyfriend is proof that someone is straight.
(I don't think it really matters either. I just think we should be careful about what we cite as "proof" given that reality is far less black-and-white than that, people put up fronts, people can change over time, etc...)


Yep, I was thinking about making a list of married players and offering it as proof of more straight players than 2%, and I did a search and found "WNBA players married to NBA players". They gave Jason Collins and (former Stanford player) Carolyn Moos as one of only three examples. (Candace Parker and Monica Wright being the other two). But Jason Collins is now famous for being the first active NBA player to come out.



tfan



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:

How many of those lesbian players are fully out? A small percentage. The same for lesbian athletes in other sports. The same for lesbian coaches throughout sports.

Even with the advances our country has seen regarding LGBT rights, the vast majority of lesbian athletes and lesbian coaches don't feel comfortable or safe coming out. To be as clear as possible, I say this without a word of criticism for any of these athletes and coaches.

I am a passionate fan of a sport where this is the reality for many of the players and coaches I cheer on. They don't feel they can be honest about who they are. That makes me very sad and very angry.


I wonder if the closeted WNBA players are re-thinking things now that Augustus, McCoughtry, Griner, Delle Donne (1/3 of the Olympic team) and others are now out and there was no backlash against them.


Youth Coach



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm still trying to get over the "heterosexual and straight" line.
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PostPosted: 02/20/17 8:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Spot on analysis from WNBA Fans Nation (not to be confused with WNBA Fan's Page) :

The points Candice Wiggins makes and my opinions regarding them (sorry, a bit long):
1) "the league is 98% gay." It's higher than the national norm - I put it at about 50% - but even on her team there were stars who are straight. Many of the players who are gay don't hide it but also don't come right out and say it. We just tend to let them be and not make a big deal about it.
2) "I was called a B!TCH". I actually heard her called that... on the court. She was one of the biggest trash talkers I'd ever heard and an aggressive defender. In fact, I wanted to call her that myself a few times when I felt she was getting away with stuff. I know that she had an arrogance as a rookie that rubbed people the wrong way and I could see some vigorous defending happening as a result.
3) "people don’t come to the game" She mostly played for Minnesota, a team whose success brought a lot of people to the games. I've been there maybe a dozen times. That crowd is great.
4) "she was disheartened by a culture in the WNBA that encouraged women to look and act like men" There's a uniform code but it's identical to what's in college. Players when traveling are also sometimes expected to be in team shirt and sweats. But no one stopped Tina Thompson from wearing lipstick and no one regulated them when they were not representing the team.
5) "asserts she was targeted for harassment from the time she was drafted by Minnesota because she is heterosexual and a nationally popular figure, of whom many other players were jealous." "Wiggins said she is writing an autobiography with the working title, “The WNBA Diaries,” based on her journals as a player." These are really the money quotes. This is a player who had a very good career in college and came into the league expecting to be a "face" similar to how Skylar Diggins is. She'd earned her starting spot but got the first in a long list of injuries in 2010. The next year, she came back and had lost it: Monica Wright had come in and taken over 6th woman and they drafted Maya Moore. Wiggins became the 3 point specialist on that team instead of the star she felt she could be. She WANTED to be "nationally popular" but that wasn't true even when she was a starter because the Lynx were not good and therefore didn't get attention.

She's writing a book. She's hinting at all sorts of secrets to be revealed and dirt to be dished. She's got people talking about her. That was the aim of this interview. Never mind who she might hurt along the way. I am dismissing much of it as an attempt to get attention.



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The lady doth protest too much....


Genero36



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 10:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Did Sophia Young write the excerpt of this book?



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 10:10 pm    ::: Re: Wiggins: WNBA's 'harmful' culture of bullying, jealousy Reply Reply with quote






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Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/20/17 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We know at least one locker room she was in was toxic, or at least hazardous to one's health. Is it possible that she just assumed general asshattery was about her specifically?



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