RebKell's Junkie Boards

[root_thing]

Everyone assumes Schimmel is gone, but what if she shows up in shape? When the Liberty traded for her last year, a lot of people on this board said it was really a move for next season. Well, "next season" is here. Shoni might be the second most talented offensive player on this team if you include passing ability. Once you get Schimmel to play just serviceable defense, then she's back in the mix. If Shoni really has no chance of making the team, then NY should cut her now to allow her to look for a better situation.

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You can always do something else.

[Bob Lamm]

[Bob Lamm]

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

You can discount all three of those proposed trades anyway. Neither Stricklen nor Quigley fit the Laimbeer prototype for different reasons. Stricklen is not a passer, penetrator or a factor in the paint. Quigley is too slight. And they're not trading a promising post player for Currie even if a draft pick is included, in my opinion.

Zahui is better than Vaughn right now, and this is not even including her developmental potential. She had her best game last year as a starter, and the more she attempts to score, the more of a factor she becomes in the flow of the game. Kia's acquisition makes a whole lot more sense if you consider her as a sub for Tina and occasional sub at center than if you consider her a starter. Swords set a certain tone early in games with pick and rolls to the basket as well as a degree of physicality and rim protection on defense. Kia has nice versatility, but she does not set the physical tone that Zahui does...and I'd wager that tone is something that Laimbeer will consider extremely valuable. In turn, if the Libs have an injury to a post player, Vaughn provides far more versatility than Swords, and you could essentially use her inside or out depending on who she is paired with. I firmly believe Vaughn was acquired for the express purpose of having Zahui start and to bring an added degree of versatility off the bench. This would give more offense at the start of games, especially if Sugar comes off the bench.

And since it appears that Sugar has been re-signed for the specific purpose of being in a Liberty uniform, that means the likelihood of trading for a starting SF appears slim. To add offense, it's completely logical to believe that you'd go with a post player like Zahui who averaged nearly a point every two minutes last year while improving her face-up game this season overseas. And she will have the benefit of a full off season and training camp with the team, something she didn't have last year.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[Bob Lamm]

[zune69]

I'll put my money on Vaughn being the starting center.Laimbeer is a defensive first coach.Kia is the better,more disciplined defender in my opinion.Zahui b. was the most foul-prone center in the wnba last season(2.1 fouls in 11.3 minutes).Zahui also had a very poor asst/to ratio(12a/37t)....I believe Bill will go with the steady veteran over the young upstart.

[J-Spoon]

Just catching up on today's chat

No Thanks to all of those trades

Most teams that use 12 roster spots have a minimum of four post players, Vaughn replacing Swords won't have any negative affect on Stokes or Zahu B. minutes. I won't be surprised to see Charles play a few less minutes a night and Zahui B play a few more compared to last season. I agree that Zahui B. and Allen progressing might be our best bet for taking another step forward in our search for a championship, combined with staying healthy all season and the Prince/Rodgers back-court combo working but I digress. Back to the post rotation, I still think Burdick has a good chance to get the 12th spot as a player who can play some deep bench minutes at the 3 and the 4.

OTOH I think if the four post rotation seems like enough then one of Schimmel, Barbee and #14 can still make it onto the team. And this is before any trades that might involve one of our other guards. Hartley is the new kid in town so while I feel pretty confident she will make it, she'll still have to prove herself in camp as well.

I have said it before so I will say it again, I would love for Schimmel to show up in shape and prove she has improved from liability to mediocre on defense because even in her limited minutes last year she was one of the best shooters and passers we had. I can still see her making it as the 11th or 12th player and coming in and making a few electric plays to get the Liberty back on track if the starters are struggling.

For now I still think it is this

Prince/Boyd/Hartley
Rodgers/Wright
Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B/Burdick
Vaughn/Stokes (I want Stokes to start but I'll defer to the vet for now)

but I won't be too shocked if it is this

Prince/Boyd/Hartley
Rodgers/Scimmel
Wright/Zellous/Allen
Charles/Zahui B
Vaughn/Stokes

A little on the small side but solves the we're not completely confident in Prince or Rodgers running the point, so Wright runs the point on offense and guards the other teams SF when on the floor with the starters.

And I also won't be too shocked if Wright and or Zellous maybe packaged with the #14 pick is traded for something which will also open a possible spot for Shoni

[Bob Lamm]

[zune69]

It might sound like i'm contradicting myself,but If I were the liberty hc/gm I wouldn't trade Zahui b.I'd start Stokes,and make Zahui the sixth woman.If Zahui plays poorly,Vaughn comes in as the 4th post.I'd give Allen the opportunity to sink or swim as the starting sf.I believe Rebecca has the size & shooting skills to fill the void at sf.However,based on Bill's rationing of the minutes last season,Zahui b & Allen specifically,I have the impression that Bill is open to trading both players in the right deal.I'm sure Vaughn is getting max money.I don't think you trade for a max player to play them 10-15 minutes per game.Zahui b has very good upside.It's totally understandable why liberty fans have their reservations about parting ways with her in any trade.But if the liberty have any aspirations of competing for a championship,they'll need to fill the void at the SF.At this point in her career I don't believe Zahui is going to get you an all-star type of player in return on the trade market.

Some lib fans are really undervaluiing what new york would get back in all three of my propsoed trades.Any future championship run is going to run through minnesota,Phoenix and maybe Atlanta.You're going to need a sf with some size to matchup with Moore/Bonner/Mccoughtry.Not saying that any of these players will stop the aforementioned all-stars,but they're better than what the liberty have at this moment from a defensive standpoint.Plus the liberty would be getting a 1st rd pick/2nd player as part of the deal.

The liberty have a huge hole at the SF position.If you think you're going to win a championship with Zellous/Wright playing sf,you are crazy.

[root_thing]

It's a mistake to look at last year's minutes and assume that's how players will be used this season. With young players, there's an expected progression and the minutes will increase commensurate with their improvement. Remember, Zahui B. was acquired at the end of training camp and Allen joined at midseason. That put both players at a disadvantage from the start. Coaches tend to be conservative, and when push comes to shove they use veterans. However, if this team wants to win a championship, they have to develop some quality players on their own. It's very hard to build a team by only acquiring stars via trade and free agency. This is a small league with only eleven trading partners and no one is anxious to send you their best players. Nor is it common to let good players walk away for free. Consequently, you need to find some high-ceiling young talent and try to turn them into starters yourself. To me, Allen and Zahui B are the two most promising young players on the Liberty. I think the team would be crazy to trade them for a 30-year old mediocrity like Tamera Young or a chronic underachiever like Shekinna Strickland. Monique Currie could help in the short-term, but her established market value at the beginning of last year was a second round pick. I don't think she necessarily raised her stock during the season and now she's a year older.

I'm not convinced that the Liberty targeted Vaughn in that trade. While she and Swords are very different players, they're roughly equal in terms of production and usefulness. In fact, their PERs are almost identical: 13.3 for Vaughn and 13.2 for Swords. So if Vaughn and Swords are essentially a wash, that means the Liberty got Hartley for free. Bria gives them an option that on her good days is more complete than the players they already had: she shoots better than Boyd, is a much more reliable defender than Schimmel, and has the speed to push the ball much faster than Wright. Hartley also gives New York better long-range shooting and a player who can create her own shot. I'm not saying that Hartley will perform well every night, but she is certainly an option worth having -- especially if you get her for free.

_________________
You can always do something else.

[zune69]

Okay Liberty fans....we'll see how this plays out during the season.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

On the acquisition of Hartley I agree with Root for a few reasons, thrown in with the fact that I'd imagine they envision more minutes for Zahui this year. I do think that Hartley's significance in the trade is critical as well. If you guys remember, there were times when the team's only PGs were Boyd and Zellous. Part of that was due to Shoni's concussion, but how effective would she have been even if she had played? Hartley gives depth at both backcourt positions if needed, and she's a functional three point shooter. And she may push Boyd for minutes, which will hopefully bring out the best in Boyd this season. And Hartley is one of those solid players late in games. You can never have enough of those.

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

[SDHoops]

Update on Schimmel is..well she's gone in cognito. Hasn't been seen on social media, hasn't been following her girlfriend around, etc. This could work either way..either she's working on one of the best comebacks of all time or she's given up and just living life.

[J-Spoon]

[zune69]

[stever]

http://www.fiba.com/eurobasketwomen/2017/news/-czech-republic-lifted-by-the-addition-of-vaughn

[fanaticka]

[Shades]

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

And when is it? Will she miss training camp and regular season time?

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The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[stever]

[toad455]

[J-Spoon]

Burdick can play some PF as well as SF, I think this may have gotten her onto the opening day roster unless we trade for a post.

I wouldn't mind giving Bulgak another look.

[toad455]

I prefer Zahui B. at PF, so another center would be best.

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[cappa23MVP]