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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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 Posted: 02/08/17 11:16 pm ::: 10 Nation Euro Poll: Ban Muslims! |
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A just published poll of more than 10,000 Europeans found strong support for stopping all further Muslim immigration in all 10 countries polled.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/08/17 11:34 pm ::: |
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| Color me shocked, Islamophobia exists.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/09/17 8:03 am ::: |
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| Mob rule may not be the best way to run things
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/09/17 9:50 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Mob rule may not be the best way to run things |
"Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is cheifly to be apprehended, not from acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents."
Letter from James Madison to Thomas Jefferson
17 Oct. 1788
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 02/09/17 10:15 am ::: |
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| I wonder though, is 10,000 really a good representative sample out of millions, potentially billions in 10 countries? I know that it would be all but impossible to poll everyone but wouldn't a larger sample provide a better overview? |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/09/17 12:17 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| I wonder though, is 10,000 really a good representative sample out of millions, potentially billions in 10 countries? I know that it would be all but impossible to poll everyone but wouldn't a larger sample provide a better overview? |
That's actually a very large sample by modern polling standards.
More critical is how the sample was selected.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/09/17 1:09 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| I wonder though, is 10,000 really a good representative sample out of millions, potentially billions in 10 countries? I know that it would be all but impossible to poll everyone but wouldn't a larger sample provide a better overview? |
That's actually a very large sample by modern polling standards.
More critical is how the sample was selected. |
And the exact wording of the question
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/09/17 2:23 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Mob rule may not be the best way to run things |
"Mob rule" when you don't like public opinion and "democracy" when you do.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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Location: Fayetteville
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| Posted: 02/09/17 3:15 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| I wonder though, is 10,000 really a good representative sample out of millions, potentially billions in 10 countries? I know that it would be all but impossible to poll everyone but wouldn't a larger sample provide a better overview? |
That's actually a very large sample by modern polling standards.
More critical is how the sample was selected. |
And the exact wording of the question |
Yeah I thought about those also. |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 02/09/17 4:29 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Mob rule may not be the best way to run things |
"Mob rule" when you don't like public opinion and "democracy" when you do. |
Mob Rule and Democracy are never equivalent. And while MAJORITY rule is relevant to Democracy, so is the welfare of ALL members of a democracy, even those in positions of less power/fewer numbers.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/09/17 5:09 pm ::: |
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As Justice Jackson explained in West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette:
"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections. "
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 02/09/17 8:42 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| I wonder though, is 10,000 really a good representative sample out of millions, potentially billions in 10 countries? I know that it would be all but impossible to poll everyone but wouldn't a larger sample provide a better overview? |
That's actually a very large sample by modern polling standards.
More critical is how the sample was selected. |
And the exact wording of the question |
Yeah I thought about those also. |
The exact wording of the polled statement was right on top of the graphic in the OP:
"All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped."
Respondents were asked whether they agreed, disagreed or neither to this statement.
Note in the linked discussion of the study, the "yes" votes dominated with some differences in all classes of respondents: all genders, ages, education levels, and geographical locations (city, small town, rural).
Muslims comprise about 7% of Europe currently (and rising fast). One can imagine that all of them would have voted "no" if they were respondents in the poll. So, it's been conjectured by some talking heads that of the 20% who voted "no" in the poll, one-third of them could have been Muslims themselves. |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 02/09/17 9:28 pm ::: |
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| It would be interesting to see what a poll of US citizens in the 19th century would have shown when asked, "All further migration of the Irish should be stopped, agree, disagree, neither."
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 02/10/17 10:04 pm ::: |
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Merkel reaches deal with German states on faster migrant deportations
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German Chancellor Angela Merkel met with the premiers of Germany's 16 states in Berlin on Thursday and agreed to a plan that will speed up the deportation process for migrants denied asylum.
The plan would also make it easier to deport migrants who have been deemed as threats, and increase incentives for "voluntary returns," where migrants receive money if they choose to leave Germany before receiving a final ruling on their asylum application. |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 02/10/17 10:51 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
As Justice Jackson explained in West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette:
"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections. " |
This is a beautifully eloquent rationale, written on a case (the right to NOT be coerced into schoolroom pledges of allegiance), and in a time (1940s), when you'd think Americans would have been howling about Unpatriotic Judges. Has our current court regressed, under the tarnish of Scalia's legacy?
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 02/11/17 2:30 pm ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
| It would be interesting to see what a poll of US citizens in the 19th century would have shown when asked, "All further migration of the Irish should be stopped, agree, disagree, neither." |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/12/17 2:15 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Mob rule may not be the best way to run things |
"Mob rule" when you don't like public opinion and "democracy" when you do. |
Mob Rule and Democracy are never equivalent. And while MAJORITY rule is relevant to Democracy, so is the welfare of ALL members of a democracy, even those in positions of less power/fewer numbers. |
How are you defining "mob rule" and how are you defining "democracy"?
In this case, people outside the country have no rights in the democracy. If you say that citizens in Europe have a right to get all their immediate relatives in, that is only if that is the law of the country. And if so, would you be satisfied (from a democracy standpoint) if they banned any further migration of people without immediate relatives in Europe?
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 02/12/17 2:17 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Mob rule may not be the best way to run things |
"Mob rule" when you don't like public opinion and "democracy" when you do. |
Mob Rule and Democracy are never equivalent. And while MAJORITY rule is relevant to Democracy, so is the welfare of ALL members of a democracy, even those in positions of less power/fewer numbers. |
How are you defining "mob rule" and how are you defining "democracy"?
In this case, people outside the country have no rights in the democracy. If you say that citizens in Europe have a right to get all their immediate relatives in, that is only if that is the law of the country. And if so, would you be satisfied (from a democracy standpoint) if they banned any further migration of people without immediate relatives in Europe? |
Your first point in this post implies that "mob rule" and "democracy" are
interchangeable. I am saying they are NOT.
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